»Intelligence«

I beleive that there is no need for the matrix to control the humans on this stage of the development of the humanity, simply because people are not smart enough. You have to face it - unfortunately, majority of the people lack intelligence.
As long as intelligence and wisdom are not the absolute priority in people's lives, they will be controlled by the false ideals...

The point of the Matrix is not to enslave our intellect and our ability to solve different problems, but to decieve our senses and intuition.

So I dont think, that our intelligence or logic is in any way harmed, its our instincts and ability to feel and sense the world around us, that is kept in the dark...

A highly educated academic has the same perception of the matrix as any other human...

Intelligence is not the question...

The point I was trying to make applies more to the nature of the matrix itself and its validity - there is no need for the computer simulated Matrix.
All the people need is the Matrix of the false ideals and ideas...
By the way, Is there one thing in the matrix (the movie) that promotes the intelligence?

I doubt that mankind wouldnt mind being enslaved without some kind of "entertainment" to keep them busy...

But you are quite right...intelligence is not an aspect in the movies at all...

As long as humans aren't hungry and are promised some kind of life after death, or salvation of some sort, they will not look for answers.
Is it possible at all to find the answers? It is another matter entirely...
I personally doubt it. But it is the quest for the answers that really matters...
Doubt everything... No one has a clue.

There is also another form of control - and it has always been around - FEAR. Death/Poverty/Disease/Terrorism/etc. We are afraid and that's why we have to play by the rules and accept things as they are.

One aspect of the matrix (the movie) that really upset me, and the movie characters do joke about it, is that neo is a hulk without a brain; he can't read the signs that are all around him. Unfortunately for the movie viewers, we watch the movie through the neo's eyes, so, by default, we are blind to the same things that he cannot see. The things that he accepts as the "truth" are also accepted by us as the "truth". Any critical thinking involved on his or our behalf? No, not really...

Well I think that intelligence is very important to the movie. To understand what the matrix is, calls for some intelligence, and besides one of the most important figures in the matrix is the architect who is vastly intelligent.

I think the issue itself is, that we all have different perceptions of the word intelligence...

And regarding the issue, whether humans would prefer the Matrix to the real world (Cypher...) the question is "Is ignorance a blessing or a curse?"...

And i dont find Neo a hulk-like-hero...the only reason he is actually capable of flying around, dealing liquid kungfu-kickass around, is because he is capable of uplifting his mind to a higher level.
"Do you think me being faster or being stronger has anything to do with my muscles in this place ?"

Re: El Escogido

The characters in the movie didn't discover what the matrix is, they accepted someone else's explanation, which was or wasn't correct or truthfull. We, as viewers, still really don't know what the matrix is, we can only listen to the explanations by the movie characters. We have no clue if they are right or wrong.
Neo learned about the matrix from Morpheus, Morpheus learned it from someone else and blindly beleives it without even slightest doubt or criticism. Oracle is feeding ideas into all of them. Why should anyone beleive her? Just because she tells them that they can either listen to her or not?

Did any one of them took a critical look at what is going on?
Can any one of them take a critical look at themselves? - no...

I agree that Architect is intelligent, so is Mirovingian. So is Smith... The characters who are opposed to Neo and his "plan".
But Neo or any of his people are not great intellectuals...
Remember, "Still using all the muscles except the one that matters"?

Ironically the only muscle Neo is actually capable of using during the conversation with Smith is "the one that matter".

Inside the Matrix...noone is anything but their mind...

Re: EqUiLiBriuM

You are right, maybe we do have different perceptions of the word "intelligence".
In my opinion, the word intelligence refers to a man's ability to gather and critically examine and analyze the information and facts.
It also implies that nothing is taken for granted and no opinions are beleived no matter by whom they are expressed.

I think that Neo's ability to stop bullets and fly like a superman refers to his faith that he can do it and has nothing to do with how smart he is.
Unfortunatelly, faith and intelligence usually oppose each other.

As for Cypher, he was able to take a critical look at himself in Zion. (Poor, hungry, dirty, wearing shitty clothes, no women, fighting for a crazy idea, following a leader who might be Schizophrenic). Was he personally better off in the Zion than the Matrix? I don't know.
Was he smarter than the rest? Maybe... He saw things for what they were... He refused to see the things in the light of the words of Morpheus...
You can argue that going back to the Matrix is just an alternative to suicide for him...

Do you really think that Neo is smart? Does he even have to be smart to fulfill his role? Oracle jokes about the fact that Neo "is not very bright".

Is Neo smarter than Smith?

Yes...thats exactly my point...the Matrix claim that faith is more important in so many ways...and no intelligence does not "oppose" faith, rational thinking oppose faith...

Neo does not need to be smart (he is however a pretty skillful hacker and a programmer, which more or less corresponds to your (quite true) definition of intelligence) to succeed...he needs to be so much more...

And I completely understand Cyphers choice...and his going back to the Matrix is more or less a suicide...considering the many references to birth ("waking up") through the entire movie, Cyphers choice is more or less a reversal of birth, therefore...death...

omega wrote:

Unfortunatelly, faith and intelligence usually oppose each other.

Excuse me. I know plenty of people with strong faith who are quite intelligent. You can have faith and still not let it blind you. *mutters about fundies making everyone look bad*

EqUiLiBriuM is right, Neo is intelligent. You can't be a hacker and be stupid. Besides, consider the type of people he goes up against -- the Merovingian, the Architect, Smith; all are older, some by several centuries, and at least two of these are so skilled that they can talk rings around others and yet not say a damn thing. Perhaps if one compares a human intellect to that of a program, the human comes off as being stupid. Fine. Neo is only human. The movie would have sucked if he were a genius.

Besides -- he may not be too quick on the uptake, but his confused-puppy look is just adorable.

Shutting up now.

Rational thinking implies doubt and questioning of the facts and ideas. Rational thinking is a part of intelligence.

According to the movie, faith is crucial to Neo and to all the miserable inhabitants of Zion. Simply because they don't have a chance against machines on one side and Smith on the other. However, their faith and their struggle don't mean that they will ever discover the truth or gain freedom. All they are getting from Neo - is a stop to a war with machines...

There is a very clear difference between Neo and Smith. Neo fights for the end of the war. Smith fights for the end of the Matrix. Who between them two is ultimatelly better for humans? I simply don't know...

The movie mentiones the fact that Neo is a hacker and a programmer but we never see any real evidence of his brain... No smart thoughts - no smart actions... He is simply following the steps that he is told to follow, like a good computer algorithm... We see programming by Mirovingian but we never see any programs that were made by Neo... Why? Theoretically, he could flood the matrix with his own programs which might help him, but he never does anything like that. Never once in the movie he actually uses a computer... He didn't have to be a hacker whatsoever... He could have been a jock from a local gym who got picked to be the One...

I am surprised by the intelligence of the Agent Smith. Even before he starts absorbing everyone he meets, he already has a very philosophical view on this world, good vocabulary and he can explain his thoughts very clearly. And most importantly he doesn't listen to nobody... Noone tells him what to do... He is a truly independent element within the matrix...

re: Archangel

Strong Faith... Intelligence...
Unfortunately, I also know several individuals who are extremely bright and at the same time are strong beleivers...
I can never stop to wonder, how can you be so intelligent and be so blind when it comes to the essense of this world and the mankind?
Its creation and its existence...

Religions claim to have the ultimate truth...
I beleive that noone knows the truth... Noone even has a clue... The truth is out of our reach... The closer we try to get to it, the farther it gets away from us...
Even Jesus couldn't answer what the Truth is when asked...
People don't like this idea...

The only reason for this phenomenon that I can come up with is Fear.
People are afraid that their lives are meaningless. They are afraid of Death... They are afraid that their lives are no different from the lives of Ants or Bees...

omega wrote:

Do you really think that Neo is smart? Does he even have to be smart to fulfill his role? Oracle jokes about the fact that Neo "is not very bright". Is Neo smarter than Smith?

Well, he is pretty damn smart to outsmart a program which has gained tremendous power. Not only did he outsmart him be he tricked him in to thinking by defeating him he could have complete control of the matrix, when in fact it lead to his demise and death. Neo knew what he was doing.

Also, don't underestimate the Oracle's intelligence. She had been lying about the prophecy but for a reason. Her role, the way she led people to believe things and execute in order to preserve the world showed her intelligence. She outsmarted the Architect which no one else could do.

You can argue that Neo beats Smith at the end, but, actually, Smith gets exactly what he wants: An escape from the world that he hated so much... His only way to escape was to die, or destroy the matrix. He couldn't die the conentional ways... He had to morph into his exact opposite...

But I am not sure if Neo "outsmarted" Smith. I bet he didn't even "know" what he needed to do, I think it was more of an instinct thing: morph into Smith and, hopefully, opposites will cancel each other out as they did...

Oracle is pretty smart, I agree, she was the puppetmaster of the whole Zion...

But then there is the whole discussion regarding who is smarter: a human, a machine, or a program?

The main difference among them: machines and programs can be made the same, to fit the exact needed characteristics and parameters, while humans cannot....

omega wrote:

You can argue that Neo beats Smith at the end, but, actually, Smith gets exactly what he wants: An escape from the world that he hated so much... His only way to escape was to die, or destroy the matrix. He couldn't die the conentional ways... He had to morph into his exact opposite...

If Smith wanted to die or escape the Matrix, then he would have returned to the source with the other two Agents after the original movie. That's not what he wanted. He became powere hungry, like the Merovingian.

As far as Neo goes, he knew exactly what he was doing. For most of the trilogy he was lost and needed a guide, which is why he sought to see the Oracly so much. But he knew exactly what to do, and had it confirmed by the Oracle-Smith saying "Everything that has a beginning has an end Neo." He knew in order to save Zion he had to die, and he knew that this was the only way he could defeat Smith.

omega wrote:

But then there is the whole discussion regarding who is smarter: a human, a machine, or a program?

I think this has to be done on an individual basis. Programs are programmed to be "intelligent" but the intelligence is artificial. It's kind of like the chicken and the egg question because humans created machines and the machines are supposed to be perfect (but were created by imperfect creatures.)

Smith does not want to leave the matrix just by uniting with the source...

Smith wants to take away from Neo (and everyone) what he doesnt have: purpose. When he realizes, that even he has to "die", he wants to take the world with him. He seeks the simplest way of balancing the equation, by making any equation (not mathematically accepted, but still...):

0 = 0

so in order to make this work, he has to eliminate every single variable in every equation, which is exactly, what he is doing.

Neo takes the consequence and uses his own mind to set up a contact between Smith and the source. He knows what he is doing, and he knows, that he will succeed, and he knows, that he will die trying (and succeeding)...

And Neo gets what he wants too...peace...when the Deux Ex Machina ask him what he wants, he simply replies: "peace".

The question, whether machines are more intelligent than humans is the same question, whether human have become more powerfull than god...
Can one exceed the level of ones creator ?

omega wrote:

You have to face it - unfortunately, majority of the people lack intelligence. As long as intelligence and wisdom are not the absolute priority in people's lives, they will be controlled by the false ideals...

Before I even read the rest of this thread, I must address this.

I have been quite disenfranchised with my people lately... Iowa specifically, America broadly, and the Human Race in general. I see more and more people who do not question, who are 'controlled by false ideals,' as it were, and I get extremely frustrated. I often feel like Humanity is growing stupider.

However, I realize too that this is unfair. And it is absolutely unfair and untrue to say that 'the majority of people lack intelligence.' How do you define intelligence, anyway? Is it the ability to communicate? Is it the capacity for creating art? Is it the ability to love? Is it the ability to spout useless trivia?

Intelligence is not the problem. It is the hunger and thirst for knowledge that is waning in some people. NOT a majority. Only a very loud and persistent minority. And, most unfortunately, a highly persuasive minority to boot. It has been gathering steam for thousands of years.

In spite of myself, I have to conclude that the answer to this problem is not cynicism, but solidarity, patience, and persistence among those of us who still long to find the truth. We, the scientists and philosophers, the craftsmen and -women, the students and the masters, we, the 'inquiring minds' of the world (to borrow a phrase from the Enemy), must persevere in our quest to better ourselves and the rest of the planet, or lethargy and ignorance shall prevail. The result will be nothing more or less than the ultimate failure of the human race.

Overly dramatic? I don't know. Maybe. But the bottom line is, the problem is not intelligence (or lack thereof). Nor is it ignorance. Ignorance can be cured, but the ignorant must want it for it to work. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, because we are all intelligent. In fact, we are all ignorant. The problem is wanting to remedy our ignorance.

We generally do one of two things to treat our ignorance: either we question, or we believe. Questioning is the treatment that can help heal the wounds of ignorance and cure it. Faith and blind belief is a drug, a temporary respite from the aches and pains of ignorance, and like any drug, it is addictive. Have you ever had your faith shaken? The withdrawal symptoms of faith can cause people to break down mentally!

Now, also like any drug, faith has its benefits. But it is not a cure. The search for truth is marked by questions, and faith tends to get in the way of questioning. Ultimately, the faithful stop wanting to cure their ignorance, because they believe they have already done so, which is, of course, ridiculous.

--

omega wrote:

In my opinion, the word intelligence refers to a man's ability to gather and critically examine and analyze the information and facts. It also implies that nothing is taken for granted and no opinions are beleived no matter by whom they are expressed.

Including your own? Of course, right? Mine, too. But here's where the whole argument falls apart, you know. Intelligence is 'the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.' (according to Webster). But the problem we are talking about is not the capacity, but the desire, the willingness, to do so.

I think, Omega, that the point you're circling around is this: The Matrix symbolizes all the various things we let ourselves believe, all the things we don't question.

omega wrote:

One aspect of the matrix (the movie) that really upset me, and the movie characters do joke about it, is that neo is a hulk without a brain; he can't read the signs that are all around him. Unfortunately for the movie viewers, we watch the movie through the neo's eyes, so, by default, we are blind to the same things that he cannot see. The things that he accepts as the "truth" are also accepted by us as the "truth". Any critical thinking involved on his or our behalf? No, not really...

Why does this upset you? This is the key to the Matrix films! We see through Neo's eyes because we are meant to BE Neo. We are supposed to question the same things Neo questions. We are supposed to learn the same things Neo learns, not literally, but symbolically, figuratively. Critical thinking for Neo does take place within the world of the movie. It is slowed down for our benefit, so that we may do our own critical thinking away from the movie. Obviously you have done so, so why are you so upset? (By the way, what jokes are you referring to?)

omega wrote:

We, as viewers, still really don't know what the matrix is, we can only listen to the explanations by the movie characters. We have no clue if they are right or wrong.

Exactly! Exactly. 'No one can be told what the matrix is; you have to see it for yourself.' Don't you see? What you seem to be so disappointed about in the movie is the whole point of the movie, and still you have done what you were asked to do by the filmmakers: to question!

EqUiLiBriuM wrote:

considering the many references to birth ("waking up") through the entire movie, Cyphers choice is more or less a reversal of birth, therefore...death...

I both agree and disagree with this. Cypher's choice is a sort of death, a suicide. In many cultures, suicide is not permitted; it is a sin. But the sin comes not in the death or even the act itself, but in the result.

You see, the birth and death motif ('waking up') is also found in many cultures, all of them fundamentally dealing with the idea of reincarnation in some form or another. In these cultures, birth and death are equivalent. Death is birth to a new life. Birth is death to the old life. The result of causing one's own death is to break the cycle of death and rebirth; it is a true death, one from which you cannot be reborn.

This is not to be taken literally. As anyone who has studied (or more importantly, experienced) initiatory ritual should know, the symbolism of death and rebirth is central to true knowledge and understanding. No one can be told this knowledge, you have to experience the ritual, the initiation, and the knowledge for yourself.

Archangel wrote:

Excuse me. I know plenty of people with strong faith who are quite intelligent. You can have faith and still not let it blind you. *mutters about fundies making everyone look bad*

Like I said before, intelligence is not the issue. Fundamentalists are a bit of a problem, but as I mentioned above, faith is a drug. Fundamentalist religions abuse it. There are quite a few recreational faith users, and they don't hurt anyone (but themselves). And that's just fine. They are welcome to do so, but it still can hinder the curing of ignorance.

Neo and Morpheus especially use faith to get them to the next plateau in their battle to cure their ignorance. The trick with faith is not to become addicted to it, but to be able to change your mind and your beliefs when they are challenged by logic and reason (NOT intelligence--remember, intelligence is the capacity for reason, not reason itself).

EqUiLiBriuM wrote:

The question, whether machines are more intelligent than humans is the same question, whether human have become more powerfull than god... Can one exceed the level of ones creator ?

Here again, we have a question of Faith vs. Inquiry. I agree, the two questions above are essentially identical. Can one surpass one's creator? Of course! For most, the purpose of life is to rise above one's own parents, and make better lives for themselves and for their own children. Why shouldn't this apply to the next level up, between Created and Creator(/Creatrix)? However, the very idea of Creator is based on faith. Evidence does not support the existence of an external, eternal being, responsible for creating everything. Only faith gives God life. If no one believed, God would not exist (at least for us), a fact which is irrefutable. So if Creator doesn't exist (as such), the question is basically meaningless.

The term Creator can be applied, without the baggage of personification, to the universe itself, in which case the question not only isn't meaningless, but is far MORE profound than the original question with faith behind it! Can Mankind elevate himself above the power of the universe itself? I think we have that potential; what we do with it is up to us.

Re: El Escogido

Smith definitelt didn't want to go back to the source...
Because he would be back. His code will get dissemenated in the system and they will put him right back where he started.

They will put him back for one reason: to fight Neo, who, also will be back after his code gets dissemenated in the system and he rebuilds the ZIon...

Smith understands the cycle, that why he wants to destroy the system, so there is no more cycle...

Neo didn't know crap... He saw things in his head... Ever wonder why? Was the system feeding him visions? Think!