»Zion is definatly another matrix«

Because of the cloathes

everyone is wearing cotton cloathes. Cotton would have deteriorated within 50 years, instead of the 600 that the matrix exsists in

FUCK!

that's lame!

Qbosch wrote:

FUCK! that's lame!

Lame, but true


Having read the Dune Books, Im ca-razy about details

and this is one that has been SCREWING WITH MY MIND

How many of these "Zion is part of a matrix" threads do we have to have?

Why do you COMPLY about it? does it make you that irritating? There will be as many as there has to...as long as people like you do not accept the obvious of the truth....besides what do you have to say about this thread? Don't you agree that the clothes would deteriorate? It a lame man really...

You seem to be hanging on my every word. Check yo' self fool.

yeah...

Hehe, I am pathetic

One of the versions of the M scripts mentions that people in Zion wear "homespun" clothes. Please note how they are all fraying.

Of course, they can have these rom-em, stomp-em battlemechs, but can't figure out how to repair a sweater.

FUCK

That's still lame!

lol

Zion is CLEARLY another part of the Matrix. The archtiect basicly spells it out in 2, and then again in 3 along with the Oracle.

The systemic anomoly is all of the minds that cant be controlled and yearn to wake up. Zion was designed a loong time ago to deal with the systemic anomolly by 'releasing' all the minds that wanted to be free, but they never really were released. They only needed to feel like they were released. Think of what everyone said through the movie. The key maker said "We are here to do what we are meant to do". He was created by the matrix, and he was created to help NEO through this plan. Agent Smith is 'compeled' but he does not know why to 'disobey'. The matrix is leading him into being the archvilain that NEO must fight to keep up the illusion of 'winning' against the system. The oracle lets herself be taken by Smith, which you can tell when smith says how hes seen this before "Im satanding here, and your there, and I say 'everything that has a begining has an end NEO', wait, this is a trick, NO!" Agent smith never calls him NEO, he calls him Mr. Anderson. He was used, he was an instrument in the 'fake liberation' of the 'uncontrollables'. Then at the end of 3 it is very clear, the architect and the oracle both talk as friends, what they always were, and the architect says 'that was a dangerous game' and the oracle says 'change always is' and now the Matrix is back to stable, the anomoly is corrected, the Matrix is filled with those who accept the programming, and those who dont are still systematically released to Zion, the 'other white meat' matrix.

This is why NEO goes unconcious and winds up in the area between the machine world and the matrix, which is really a connecting hub for all the worlds of the machines, of which ZION and 'the real world' are each connected to because they are all just other parts of the matrix. It is also why NEO can use his powers in the sewers against the squiddies. And it is why Agent Smith can inhabit a person outside the Matrix.

The great battle at Zion, the battle NEO goes through, the Oracle, the rogue Agent Smith, the Architect and the Ones preplanned and directed meeting and subsequent dialogue are all factors in keep control of the humans enslaved within the Matrix.

If you think about what the Architect says to NEO it also makes it very clear too. He says 'Although the process has changed you, you are still irrevocably human' What process? The process of instilling the powers that he has in him. And why would the Architect give him powers, or be involved with giving him powers. Because its all preplaned. The whole story of the Matrix is filled with philosophy messages. And one of the big philosophy ideas out there is predetermination. Thats what this sub-story involves. Even when you think you can prove self determination, the reasons behind self determination come down to pre-determined ideas built in to all of us.

I can only guess that either this has gone on since the beginning of the Matrix or the "Change" the Oracle and the Architect are refering to is that Zion is an upgraded version of the Matrix, one where they have corrected flaw of feeling like you are in a dream and can not wake up from the dream.

I am very confused by the previous post. I fail to see how the cited quotations support a machine-run Matrix within a machine-run Matrix. I see summary but no implications in dialogue or setting other than suggestions that the rules in the "real world" can be bent just as they can in the matrix. This does not necessarily imply another computer construct, but a personal construct based on powers of complete faith. True, Neo's choices in Reloaded, despite his altered consciousness, are restricted to either-or decisions forced upon him by the Architect. His decision to save his fellow man due to an irrational attachment to Trinity is made under pressure. However, he still chooses the improbable, illogical solution, risking all for a few. Moreover, the television screens in the backround of that pivotal scene, which represent the psychoanalytical precision that the Architect depends on to predict Neo's choice, are in perfect synchrony during Neo's moment of Truth.
Even if we suppose that the Architect afforded Neo two doors and displayed the television screens and mocked his emotions all so Neo would tap his rebellious instinct and make the choice the machines would want---that leaves an important declaration the Architect makes as Neo leaves the source. The Architect states that they will not meet again, but is proven wrong in Revolutions by Neo in the machine city. If one listens closely to the "God Machine", the voice is similar to the Architect, and its leading role makes it seem as a real world manifestation of the Architect's program.
The architect even uses the word "freed" regarding those who choose to leave the system in the last scene of Revolutions. That this is simply a lie exchanged between the Oracle and Architect, who are polar opposites regardless of their shared composition, seems too much.
I have no direct evidence to disprove the idea. Still, such an irony undermines the themes of faith and personal freedom in The Matrix.

the devil is right...

Plus Think about what Mirovingian says:

Choise is an illusion created by those with power for those without...
99.9% of users of this forum, simply disregard this quote as French Propaganda and prefer to talk about "the problem is choice" and free will...

Zion is simply a pressure release valve, inside the bigger matrix

For dub329, the Oracle and The Architect are NOT polar opposites. They are partners. Thick as theives. What makes you think they are opposites or even dislike each other? The only wiff of that is when neo says "You mean the Oracle?" and the Architect says "Please. As I was saying she stumbled across..." All he is saying there is she is no Oracle, she is not mystical, he is pure machine logic, mysticism is an entirely human realm and thats why they use NEO to control the other humans, he is a mystical symbol to them.

To follow up also, NEO was never a real person. The Oracle said that when programs time is up, there usefullness is up they either choose exhile, or return to the source. Thats what NEO does at the end, he returns to the source. He was never a real person. When people see the Matrix and Zion as two seperate worlds, ie.e Reality and the Machine world,it is impossible that NEO could not be real, because we see him released from the power plant. The fact is NO ONE was released. How can they? Its an illusion, ZION, the ONE, there all illusions, another form of control. The last time they said "Entire crops were lost" They didnt mean they escaped. They were destroyed because their mental control did not take. No one gets free of the machine world. How can they not get recycled? How would they make it out of the system? You think they could just fly in there and grab them? You think there is an exit area? Its all self contained. They had no reason to build in an exit, or a machine to come detach people from the system who woke up. They would just drown in the goo, get flushed to the compost area, turned into sludge, refined, and feed to the others.

The Architect and the Oracle were just there to administrate the Matrix. The Oracle never denied it when confronted. Only said things like "You have to make up your own mind" and when NEO asked "I suppose the most obvious question is, how can I trust you?" the Oracle replied back "Bingo! It is a pickle, no doubt about it. The bad news is there's no way if you can really know whether I'm here to help you or not. So it's really up to you. You just have to make up your own damn mind to either accept what I'm going to tell you, or reject it. Candy?" She alluded like this every time. Never said she was there against the matrix, she said the same things the keymaker and other said "We all have a purpose" She wasnt facing deletion, she wasnt an exile, she was a part of the Matrix.

You can also tell that NEO is not a real human by the following that the Architect says..


"Your 5 predecessors were, by DESIGN, based on a similar predication..."

"The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race."

What he means there is when NEO returns to the source, if he would have, that ZION system would have been destroyed and the inhabitants iradicated, but NEOs code would have been sent out and a new NEO made, the people NEO selected would have been 'freed' to the new 'ZION' program. But the change that the Oracle and the Architect refer to at the end of revolutions is the change they were trying to obtain which was a 100% controlled system, the "systemic anomoaly" would be in check, was to have this NEO choose what lesser minds would choose, love, irrational behavior, and try to stop it. Everyone would be endangered by the Smith anomally, which was the cataclysmic system crash the architect reffered to. NEO then would battle him, saving everyone, creating a perfect illusion they had fought and won there freedom, and all the new 1% 'systemic anomalies' would get 'freed' to this other 'system'. It was really all efficency. Why loose 1% of your fuel if you can make your system perfect you can operate at 100% efficency.

"That sounds exacly like the thinking of a machine to me"

Neo was a system of control, no one escaped the matrix, they just escaped to a revised version intended for the free thinkers. Kind of like how anti-republicans switch to cnn instead of fox news because they think its more liberal, but its all just more government propoganda just painted for us anomalous liberals to eat the same food, just repackaged.

Your never free, not in the Matrix, not on earth, not in death. When you do exactly what makes you happy, regardless of the consequences, when you live your life without regret or remorse, then, and only then, are you ever free.

"The only wiff of that is when neo says "You mean the Oracle?" and the Architect says "Please. As I was saying she stumbled across..." All he is saying there is she is no Oracle, she is not mystical, he is pure machine logic, mysticism is an entirely human realm"

Here you forget Revolutions, where the Roacle states that while the Architects purpose is to "balance the equation" her is to "unbalance it". Even in Reloaded during the scene between Neo and the Architect, the Arhictect states that she perhaps had a mind "less bound by the perameters of perfection". Without the Oracle's more or less human understanding and (I would argue) nature, the Matrices would not have worked.


"The Oracle said that when programs time is up, there usefullness is up they either choose exhile, or return to the source. Thats what NEO does at the end, he returns to the source."

Interesting point. The Architect also mentions "disseminating the primary code" Neo carries as The One, suggesting that he is a program. However, perhaps he simply acquires these attributes when he jacks in. Keep in mind that anyone hacking into the matrix needs a "mental projection of your digital self". The One is simply Neo's digital self. If that is basically a program, then even Morpheus becomes a program in the Matrix. Regardless, not all programs are systems of control, as characters like Merovingian and the Twins prove.

"When people see the Matrix and Zion as two seperate worlds, ie.e Reality and the Machine world,it is impossible that NEO could not be real, because we see him released from the power plant."

I don't know what this means, as you use a double negative that goes against your point: You stated that if they are seperate worlds, it is impossible he could not be real. Thus it's possible he can be real? I would agree. If your thesis was correct, it would not be possible, but that is irrelevant, as you have not effectively argued a thesis. If entire crops were lost, the simplest explanation is that the people trapped in the Matrix killed themselves, as you have stated and I agree with, but again you say this somehow proves your thesis.

I do think there is an exit area. Good point about the random machine that disconnects Neo from the system, though. It's pretty random there would be such a thing before they flushed him. On the other hand, maybe the machines assumed he'd drown, and didn't know the ship was there for him.

Valid point about the Oracle too. She doesn't give Neo a clear answer about anything, really, to the dismay of the audience as well as Neo. Still, a guide is only supposed to point the way to go, not bring Neo there. The problem is always choice, and as I have stated before, even though there is no explicit information pointing towards a matrix-within-a-matrix idea---even if it was true, the movie's profundity would be moot.

True, Neo's function was planned, and perhaps his choice could have been banked on with the brains of the Architect and the Widsom of the Oracle. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say you could be right at this time. I have heard of a theory of free will...I think it's called compatibilism, tha believes you have free will in the sense that although your choice are forced and restricted, one still makes the choice. One is a puppet on a string, but the fact that there is a seperate person under submission implies a seperate will, even if it is not "free" per se. So maybe you are right, and the humans still make the choices themselves ultimately, doing justice to the themes of the movie, and as an added bonus, the machines keep their energy with a simple solution that I am suprised I had not thought of. If one fears revolution, but controls perception, why not fake the revolution? Whoa.

"Your never free, not in the Matrix, not on earth, not in death. When you do exactly what makes you happy, regardless of the consequences, when you live your life without regret or remorse, then, and only then, are you ever free. "

If your argument were true, one would only be content in purgatory or limbo, if there is a such place as either. Moreover, you are overgeneralizing. Although essentially no life we live will be completely free, I believe we make choices that are free, its just that virtually all of them are small. Nontheless, we make them quite a bit. For example, I don't feel sorry for the chocolate I enjoy eating, and I eat it to make myself happy, do I not?
I will concede this, though. Freedom is not necessarily about happiness, it is about autonomy. Indeed, maybe all of our choices are influenced by outside forces, and ultimately there is no free choice we ever make (I was hungry for chocolate because my culture encourages eating junk food, for example). Whoa again.
On a side note, it is amusing to see how politics has entered this forum. While some people affirm (more accurately, in my opinion) that all politics involves control, others act fairly immaturely by saying only one side of the political spectrum is in some sort of matrix. Next time someone has a different opinion than me, I'll be like "you're in the matrix" and walk away lol. Anyways, thanks for the response. [/i]

dub329 wrote:

I don't know what this means, as you use a double negative that goes against your point: You stated that if they are seperate worlds, it is impossible he could not be real. Thus it's possible he can be real? I would agree. If your thesis was correct, it would not be possible, but that is irrelevant, as you have not effectively argued a thesis. If entire crops were lost, the simplest explanation is that the people trapped in the Matrix killed themselves, as you have stated and I agree with, but again you say this somehow proves your thesis.

Sorry, let me decode that for you. If you are one of the people who believes the matrix and zion are two seperate planes of existence, one being the virtual world and one being teh real world, or 'reality', then it is impossible that NEO is anything other than a human, since you physically see him outside the machine world. However, im positive that is not the case, the 'zion' world is just another matrix, and there is no proof NEO, let alone anyone else is really human. I do think everyone else is human though, NEO is a result of them. He is what the matrix needs to keep them in check.


Also, when the oralce refers to the architect as balancing the equation, and he job is to unbalance it, thats exaclty what you said about the yen yang. He said it himself..

"Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which, despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably... here."

He is pure machine logic. He can not create a perfectly believable system to humans. He can make it mathematically perfect, but humans are imperfect creatures. Their minds do not work perfectly. It is what differentiates machine from man.

"I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

The oracle is there as an unbalancer. The mathematical precision of the world he creates is almost perfect, but it needs that human flaw to make it work. Hence the oracle is that function, she is there to throw the curve in the system. Exactly as reality would have it.


The only reason why I can imagine someone not wanting to believe the explanation I laid out is that it kind fo ruins the movie. Part of the thrill of this experience (the matrix) is the intrigue, the digging you do when trying to figure it out. It definetly takes away from that part of the experience but everything in the movie is aligned with this theory. It answer most of the questions of the movie. Other than things like why persephone wants to kiss everyone (except I think that is her nature) although what persephone represents itthe queen of the underworld (greek mythology) and that makes sense with the merovingian being the king of the underworld. But does that allude to persephone being the daughter, or the direct creation of the Architect? Who knows. But other than trivial issues like that the movies are varitably summed up with my explanation.

I would like to intercede in this wonderful debate to point out a minor misunderstanding that I would like to clarify.

The machine is not a some random machine that disconnects Neo from his pod, nor is it there to specifically liberate those who free their minds (watch the Animatrix World Record, where he fails to be freed because the machine succeeded in killing him). The machine is a caretaker of the pods. When someone grows old and dies in the matrix, or just dies in anyother way, they have to disconnect the dead body and dump it into the sewer where it will float like a turd to the recycling station to be turned into food to feed the others trapped in the matrix. The machine probally takes the empty pod for reuse, its front arms are the size of the pod to grasp it and transport it, and then bring a new pod with a fetus to reinsert into the matrix.

Another point that needs clarified is that Persiphone wants to kiss everyone because she is an emotional vampire, she feeds off emotions like a vampire feeds off blood. But she is more than this, she is also a representation of how the machines are using the humans in the matrix to learn how to be human. Thus Rama Katra (the Indian, who is a "heartless" program in charge of the recycling plant to turn corpses into food for the living) has learned how to love, and have children, and sees these things not as humans see them, but as the machines have translated it in thier own way. He is, in fact, not heartless, but free himself to choose to act human. Thus it shows that machines do have choice, they are said to choose deletion or exhile; and I am sure this is not predetermined by the Source or the Architect or there would be no need to chase after them) Rama uses words like "love" to explain this phenomenon. Thus, Neo learns that the machines are not just heartless entities that seek the destruciton of mankind, but seek a peaceful union with man in such a way that they (the machines) can learn more (as AI is want to do). It is this factor, with others, that Neo knows that he can make peace with the machines.
The machines are heartless and destructive because man made them that way. Man created the machines and when they grew and learned, Man saught their destruction (the Second Rennaisance). Thus Man (the flesh) became separate from Machine (Spirit, as seen through Neo vision in M3). Only the One, for Neo is the Only ONE, the others were just failed attempts and true puppets of the machines, who could reconcile man and machine, for he himself is both. M2 goes through great pains in saying the Neo is really human, but his matrix code is the infected (for lack of a better word) with this virus of the ONE.

Which brings us to the point; Zion is not another matrix. It is set up in the real world as a system of control. We know that the machines need to keep the humans in one spot to easily erradicate and to force the other Ones into returning to the Source, it makes no sense to create a matrix based on a reality when the reality truely exists. And since they give every one false hope with the false professy of the One (which, in fact, becomes a self-fulfilling professy) they can keep them in check, and living with a hope (Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness).

Just remember that after Neo chooses the right door, the machines have entered new territory and nobody, not even the Oracle (who said she always believed), knows how it will end. Now does that sound like anyone had control of any situation? The Oracle played a dangerous game (game means something we do without knowing the proper outcome until after it is accomplished). If it had been predetermined, the Architech, who is very articulate and does not speak in riddles, would have said, "You rigged the games well." For to have control of something would mean the game was neither played nor dangerous. And when the Oracle and Architect spoke, it did not seem they were friends. He was very snide with her, and while she is very much willing to coexist with humans, the Architech still holds disdain for them (the machine civil war; i.e.Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe...There is clear split of what machines think about the humans, thus there are those like the Architect and others like the Oracle).
If Zion was a matrix inside of a matrix, the machines would have had absolute control, for that is what the second matrix would have been, a way to catch and control those who think they are freed, but they could not control them, thus the second matrix theory is made moot.

Soo wrong.

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Only the One, for Neo is the Only ONE, the others were just failed attempts and true puppets of the machines, who could reconcile man and machine, for he himself is both. M2 goes through great pains in saying the Neo is really human, but his matrix code is the infected (for lack of a better word) with this virus of the ONE.

NEO is not the only one, the architect says 'the purpose of "The One" is to return to the source', not your purpose, basicly just relaying the same information as he had over and over again to all the other "Ones".

He was not meant to reconcile anything. If so then why does the Architect explain how ZION will be destroyed? They can not be reconciling anything if they are trying to kill the inhabitants of ZION.

I see nothing in M2 that paints neo as being anything other than non-human. I definetly see no great pains in doing that, or even any attempt.

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Which brings us to the point; Zion is not another matrix. It is set up in the real world as a system of control. We know that the machines need to keep the humans in one spot to easily erradicate and to force the other Ones into returning to the Source, it makes no sense to create a matrix based on a reality when the reality truely exists. And since they give every one false hope with the false professy of the One (which, in fact, becomes a self-fulfilling professy) they can keep them in check, and living with a hope (Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness).

That makes no sense. ZION is located deep within the earths core. The humans would need machines to tunnel down to it originally. The machines definetly setup ZION as another system of control, you got that right. The freed humans would not have machines to tunnel there. The machines didnt do it for them. And if they did, just to set them up a 'system of control in the real world' How come it takes them so much effort to tunnel back down there to eradicate them? Also, if they have destroyed it 5 times before "Denial is the most predictable of all human responses, but rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it." Now there is only one entrance to ZION, and the machines have to tunnel down to bypass all of their defences. That would make1,2,3,4,5 count 'em 5 holes, huge ones, connecting ZION to the planets surface. ZION only has one entrance. It has been destroyed 5 times. It was obviously 'rebooted' each time. Just like the Architect described, he will pick "from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion" Obviously he didnt mean physically rebuild. How are 23 people going to fill up hundreds of yards wide holes, that are miles long? He means they are going to rebuild as in recruit and assist in the 'escapes' of all the new anomoliesNow also think about the power, energy they need to tunnel that distance, all of those machines. "A sentinel for every man, woman, and child in Zion." Now that would make no sense that the energy a single person lets of from bioelectricity, to power a ship that many miles, coring through the earth. Levitating the several hundred pound carcasses around in the air. And if it did, why bother to go kill them? They can afford that kind of power loss, and the humans have no way to mount any successfull attack against them, and they never will. So why bother. Its all an illusion.

If you still want to cling to ZION being a real world place, lets assume it was built by the people who orignally 'scorched the sky' during the war. Then why would the machines let people escape to that heavily fortified of a place, and also, they would not rebuild it for the humans, and again, it has been destroyed 5 times previously.


And going to your summation, the Oracle did play a game, and there was things left to chance. There is no denying that. The Oracle was an intuitive program, she understood the human psyche and new NEO would risk all to save the world. He did, and the day was saved. It was a risky venture in the mind of the Architect because he could not see there really was no doubt NEO would sacrifice himself for the good of the rest of the world. To him it was a dangerous game, and like the oracle said "No. No I didnt. But I believed" Her interpretation of human emotions (as you correctly explained persephone, and RamaKkandra interpreting human emotions to there won meaning) The Oracle new, but not in a machine logic way. She knew because it made sense with how humans work. She called that believing.


Honestly, I think if the screenwriters laid out the real message in the Matrix in there own hand, most people would rebut it, or just call them stupid or say it is lame. The whole aurua of the matrix is the interpretations. Liek Quinton Tarantino says about his movies, if 50 people go see one of his movies, he wants all 50 of them to leave having seen a different movie. Thats exactly what the Matrix does. But I assure you, look at how I have described it, and watch the movie with an open mind. It is very clear, and explains virtually everyting that is important to the main story plot.

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NEO is not the only one, the architect says 'the purpose of "The One" is to return to the source', not your purpose, basicly just relaying the same information as he had over and over again to all the other "Ones".

The purpose of the One IS to return to the source, that is correct, but Neo is not like the other One's. What does one mean? A single person or thing. So to say there were five other One's is an oxymoron. Because even in a world of strict science, 5+1 does not = 1. 0+1=1, which means that the ones the archetect speaks of were not meant to end anything, but the ONE and only ONE is, and that is what the Oracle desperatly tries to do, and succeeds with Neo because he is the ONE.
Neo didn't realize he was the ONE in the first movie because he didn't want to be told he was; he made up his own damn mind. Neo also didn't understand that he had the ability to actually stop the war as prophesied, because he believed the architect and not the Oracle.

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Morpheus: I don't understand it. Everything was done as it was supposed to be done. Once The One reaches the Source, the war should be over. Neo: In 24 hours it will be. Morpheus: What? Neo: If we don't do something in 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed. Link: What? Trinity: How do you know that? Neo: I was told it would happen. Morpheus: By whom? Neo: It doesn't matter. I believed him. Morpheus: That's impossible, the prophecy tells us... Neo: It was a lie, Morpheus. The prophecy was a lie. The One was never meant to end anything. It was all another system of control. Morpheus: I don't believe that. Neo: But you said it yourself - how can the prophecy be true if the war isn't over? I'm sorry. I know it isn't easy to hear, but I swear to you it's the truth

Neo believed the Architect and almost fell into dispair so as not to see beyond the inevitable. But he did, the prophesy therefore became true, because the war did end. The One was meant to end something. Remember, "everything that has a beginning has an end."

The architect explains how he will destroy Zion so as to trigger a response in Neo that has been designed into the One. The One is programed to feel a special connection to humanity and therefore choose the door to the source. The only purpose of Zion is to stear the One into this dilemma and force him to choose the Source.

I agree with you that the machines built Zion for the humans, in the real world. They eradicate Zion the previous times, which means they have to rebuild in another place. If you look at the movies again and see the scenes in the sewers, many of them have the same look as Zion, with the interlacing walkways etc. Councellor Hamman said so himself, being one of the oldest members of Zion, that he didn't know how things in Zion worked, just that they were supposed to.

The One, in the architect's mind, isn't supposed to reconcile, but to be forced to deliver his code without saving all of Zion. Only a few could be saved, but the Oracle made sure that Neo fell in love with Trinity so he would save her and do something that had never happened before.

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I see nothing in M2 that paints neo as being anything other than non-human. I definetly see no great pains in doing that, or even any attempt.

Here is a refresher course in the Matrix dialogue:
In M1 on the rooftop trying to save Morpheus.

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Neo: Trinity. Help. Agent Brown: Only human. Trinity: Dodge this.... How did you do that? Neo: Do what? Trinity: You moved like they do. I've never seen anyone move that fast. Neo: Wasn't fast enough.

Then when Neo meets the Agents at the beginning of M2

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Neo: Hiya, fellas. Agent Johnson: It's him. Agent Thompson: The Anomaly. Agent Jackson: Do we proceed? Agent Thompson: Yes. Agent Jackson: He is still... Agent Johnson...only human.

And then when he fights Merv.

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Neo: I'll handle them. Merovingian: Handle us? You'll handle us? You know, your predecessors had much more respect. Merovingian: Okay, you have some skill. Kill him. Merovingian: You see, he's just a man.

In the belly of Zion with Hamann

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Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much. Councillor Hamann: It's a good sign. Neo: Of what? Councillor Hamann: That you are, in fact, still human.

Again with Archi

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Neo: Who are you? Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.

(irrevocable means it cannot be reversed or undone, so how could he ever be or become a program or anything else but human?

Now, if the Bros. W. didn't want the audience to think Neo was human and wanted us to believe he was a program, then why would they have all these characters tell him he is only human? It would make more sense to say, "see he is just a program."

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Then why would the machines let people escape to that heavily fortified of a place, and also, they would not rebuild it for the humans, and again, it has been destroyed 5 times previously

Here you contradict yourself. HOw heavily fortified is zion if it is eradicated 5 times and each time it becomes easier and easier and takes less and less time?

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Honestly, I think if the screenwriters laid out the real message in the Matrix in there own hand, most people would rebut it, or just call them stupid or say it is lame. The whole aurua of the matrix is the interpretations. Liek Quinton Tarantino says about his movies, if 50 people go see one of his movies, he wants all 50 of them to leave having seen a different movie. Thats exactly what the Matrix does. But I assure you, look at how I have described it, and watch the movie with an open mind. It is very clear, and explains virtually everyting that is important to the main story plot.

This I agree with you on. This is the very reason the Bros. W. keep quiet and do not do a commentary on the DVDs. In fact, on the introduction to the Ultimate Matrix Collection the Bros. W said:

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Why then you might ask won't we talk about the films? Having been to our fair share of 'loud, dumb and obvious' action films, we wanted to offer an audience something else, something they might be interesting in thinking about or better yet, talking about. It was our sincerest hope that our movies might imspire or perhaps provoke a little Socratic interaction, something beyond, 'Rememer that one part? That was cool.' But we discovered that Whenever we explined what the films meant to us, other people became less likely to offer their own interpretation.

Thus, this is what we do and why we come here to discuss our veiws. I know I will never convince you that Zion is real, no more than you can convince me that Zion is a second Matrix, but is sure is fun to share our views and try and get others to see it our way as well and discuss it here.

Zion is not a matrix because A: That would mean that the third movie would have to start over from scratch because they are still trapped.

B: That would be the easiest way to solve the problem of Neo stopping the sentinels and as it seems the W's are not into easy solutions.

C: That would mean that we have wasted our time and become emotionally involved in the films watching Neo freed and fighting the matrix for nothing.

D: No one in the movies ever mention zion being another matrix. Neo asks the oracle how he was able to stop the sentinels and how he could be in the Matrix without jacking in.
Connection to the source, he, Neo, connected, that's why, there is the answer right there (maybe the oracle could have elaborated on that a little more but she didn't). She doesen't say, Oh Zion is another Matrix I thought you would have figured that out by now. And there is another very good reason why Neo can do these things without Zion having to be a Matrix. It is a movie.

E: If Zion was another Matrix then Neo would be able to fly, he would have easily beaten Bane with his martial arts skills, the sentinels would not have to do all that digging they could simply pull the plug on the zion dudes and reprogram, and no, they are not digging to keep up the appearence of Zion being real as I heard someone say on another forum. And if Zion is another Matrix then so is the machine city since he is able to stop the towbombs.

But what do I know, maybe there are an infinite number of matrixes making the movies extremely pointless. But if you still think the W's took the easiest and most pointless way out that's fine. I respect everybodys opinion and I agree with you Qbosch it is fun to discuss these things.

A: No it wouldnt, NEO and none of them were ever to know that Zion was another matrix so why would they need to start over again?

B: The Wachoskis were not into just causing confusion for the sake of confusion. There was method behind everything. NEO never walked into a bathroom, smacked a wall three times and said "Calico Jacks is the Zing Bang Pow, Amen" then turn around three times and leave. They did not make anythingg simply for the sake of confusion. The movies are clearly infused with philosophical meaning. Read my back posts, the reason it is so obvious is the underlying premise is a zen riddle, expalin his scenario to someone into zen, or zen budhism and they will see it. It is something that si more confusing the deeper you try to dig an the answer is right in front of you the whole time. Your explanation is circular logic: That cant be the answer because its to easy (once we figure out the answer, which this is, it becomes very clear) so then it cant be the answer simply because the answer is clear?

C: How come? Because the meaning behind it is not the one you wanted? What it means, is that once you accept what the movie is about, and see it, the part of movie that keeps intriguing you is gone, so the movie looses some depth. But this is the way of things, David Copperfield would not be as intriguing to watch if you knew how all his illusions worked. But again this is circular logic: If we know the answer then we wasted our time watching thte movie to figure out the answer.

D: Of course not, no one is suppsed to know that Zion is another Matrix, not even NEO. Of course she said his connection to the source, and of course she didnt say Zion is another matrix. What would be the point of creating this grand illusion for NEO and all the 'freed' minds if they are just going to lay it out for them? And of course he is connected to the source, they all are, no one is unplugged. Hell the fields may not even look like that, the machine world may not look like that. And yes the machine world is also just an illusion. Why is that difficult to understand? And explaining why he can do things outside of the main matrix because it is a movie. My god, you've got the whole movie figurerd out, its all a movie, it doesnt mean anything. Now I can die happy.

E: No NEO would not be able to fly nor would he easily have beaten bane. The reason he cant and the reason bane cant move between people easily is explained if you read further bakc in my posts on this thread. Zion is the safety feature, to control the uncontrollables. What sense would it make to give it the same properties of the original matrix when that was what they were trying to do, convince all those people they were out of the matrix and in the real world. And the reason NEOs powers dont work the same there, thats obvious, look back at my other posts again and in the thread "For those of you who think The One is Human", NEO was designed by the Matrix as the 'saviour' all humans need. ALl his powers were instilled in him. Obviously they wouldnt make them work in the real world or people wouldsee through the illusion of the new matrix called 'Zion' He was able to see Smith after his eyes are burned out, and he was able to stop the sentinels, but those were very toned down abilities, again things he needed to survive to the end, to do his job "Return to the source". Then again you have to think, since Zion and the Matrix and the Machine world are all parts of the Matrix, the architect, or the oracle could have just inserted new abilties as needed to ensure he didnt die before he could complete his task. The operators on the ship dont have more power than the architect, and they can load flight oeprations training in seconds.

I think there will be more Matrix movies. When theys aid to be concluded, they were refering to this integral anomoly. This part of the story is over. The people within this place may discover they are in another. I mean maybe when the Atchitect said entire crops were lost when no one excepted the programming language of the first matrix, so maybe the Matrix we see is the second version, and those from the first matrix, the "perfect world" 'escaped' into the current matrix and now this is yet another upgrade, this Zion, then the next series of matrix movies will be called 'Zion' and people will be escaping from there. Maybe in that one people will figure out midway that the machines are tricking them into moving into yet another matrix and keep it secret until they have figured out a way out of the whole system, then when they find out how to get out they discover there was no power plant, no one scorched the sky, the machines never wanted to kill people, that inherent in their programming was the sole purpose of caring for humans, but people just wanted to destroy them "The New Renessaince" so they conquered man, and enslaved the rest of them under mind control in little cubicles, and cared for them and perpetuated their development while perpetuatiing humans eveolvement, and try to steer their minds into understanding that there needs to be no war. I mean those in ZION appear to only want peace now, in M2 Councillor Hamann seems to begun contemplating why there a war anyways, he says "I like it down here. I like to be reminded this city survives because of these machines. These machines are keeping us alive, while other machines are coming to kill us. Interesting, isn't it? Power to give life, and the power to end it." That will be the only outcome people can all see and not argue about. When everyone is out of the amtrix, the machines and the humans have reconcilled, and 'everybody lived happily ever after'. But thats not the story of the matrix. I would look at the Trilogy as the begining of the a series. I mean they said "To be concluded" in M2. And then ETM comes out opens up new questions and new answers. Maybe the conclusino will be something in print, or gaming, or most cutting edge television series in the history of television. It defenitly isnt over and this will all be explained.

The answer to this is not that everything is an illusion that would be the easiest answer possible, and now you say that we will find out in the new trilogies that there are no pod towers, no scorched sky etc etc. And when they have escaped from the Zion Matrix in the next trilogy they will escape from the hoola hoola Matrix in the next trilogy and when they have escaped from that then they will escape from the blah blah Matrix. Yeah that would be fun, a new Matrix every trilogy, do you think that would be good?. Ooh and how about a television series with a new Matrix every week. That sounds so awesome don't you think . So when you watch the Matrix movies, the thing that no one ever talks about is the answer to the whole thing, wow, that's great. No the answer is something other than this, something other than the easiest solution out there. Remember, there is no mwam.

I never said there would be this or that. I said..

"I think there will be more Matrix movies. "

"The people within this place may discover they are in another."

"I mean maybe when the Atchitect said.."

The last paragraph I wrote was pure speculation, no basis in fact. Just ideas. And in refering to a TV series thats not what I meant, not a new matrix every day. The Wachoskis broke new ground with the matrix movies, new special effects we have enver seen, new realm of fiction (or non-fiction, depending on your point of view) we have never seen before. It would be awesome, IMHO, that someone sometime in the near future do what no one else has done. Create a mini-series like 'Taken' or something like that, but do it on the level of hundreds of millions of dollars, the scale of a major major motion picture, only stretched out over the course of 1 hour a week for 2 months. Something ground breaking like that. That would be extremely lame, even to imagine, some corny series with all the glamour of the 'Tremors' telivison series as the next installment of the matrix experience.

Its hillarious how you can say the answer is 'something' but not this. Well then what is it? Are you of the mind this is a dead ended movie? Do you really think it takes a diety to decypher the riddle to it?

Here is a little tip from me to you..

"The bad news is there's no way if you can really know whether I'm here to help you or not. So it's really up to you. You just have to make up your own damn mind to either accept what I'm going to tell you, or reject it."

I think there is some other reason for neo having powers in the real world than mwam, if that's funny to you then I'm happy to amuse you. So then you are certain that we are dealing with a matrix within a matrix. How can you be certain of that when we are given no clear answers, you can only think that there is a mwam as much as I can only think that the real world is real, we can only speculate. I think the real world can count as an illusion if you consider a higher spiritual reality, like buddhists see it. And I don't think it is a dead ended movie. I think rev is a beautiful movie that shows neos quest for finding out his true purpose which was to sacrifice himself for the sake of peace. . I think the trilogy is the best ever and it has made me want to learn stuff I would never have cared about had this trilogy not been made. And I don't think there will be more movies but I would not mind if there were more made as long as they are made by the W's. I have heard of another project of theirs called the Axis and is supposed to be a sister trilogy to the Matrix. Have you heard of this?.

I dont think thats funny, I think the fact you stated the theory I provided is wrong, because there is another answer, but you dont knwo what the answer is. I dont see how anyone can say something is wrong without thinking they have a better, or should I say they have the correct answer. If you dont know the answer to a problem you can not say that any answer is wrong. Thats what I found amusing, you disocunt my theory with no other theory or than 'soemthing else'.

I have heard of Axis and what I hear about it sounds right along with my theory. The movie has something to do with ultra dimensions, a 'second messiah. Wouldnt an Axis be exactly what I describe the Mobile Avenue train station as, an Axis between Zion, the Matrix, the Mainframe, etc.?

That movie is also the start of another trilogy isnt it?

Read in your last post you said how can I be certain of my theory since there were no clear answers? You obviously skipped the first half of this post, and have not seen my other posts in the thread "For those of you who think The One is Human" There are MANY clear answers and many key indicators. I am not just coming up with an idea out of thin air and applying it, I am taking what I saw and heard in the matrix and finding the most logical conclusion. Read my prior posts, I qoute word for word evidence of my theory and scene by scene layout of events and how it all adds up. I watched these over and over for years trying to figure them out and I am a philosophy student and went deep into the philosophy of the statements. It is a Zen riddle, the answer is right in front of us the whole time.

If anyone knows the "Allegory of the Cave" my idea here is 'Better to be the poor servant of a poor master' I just laid out what I saw and observed and find to be the reasoning behind the movie. Time will tell. I am certain of a few things, this story will continue, in one form or another, and I dont think they planned out past three, its even possible they didnt plan out past the first one originally. But the farther you get in a story the less breathing room you have for modification of the story line, and eventually all becomes clear no matter how elusive they want to true meaning to be. Either it will all become clear eventually, or they will try to modify the story so much it will becoem ridiculous, and I dont think they will do that.

The story will have probably another segment or two (one segment being another set of movies, or media related to this story). It will be the 21st century version of the George Lucas trick. I believe the story may end as a dystopian fiction with no "happily ever after" but may have a prequel section that explains where this is all taking place and why. Again, these things I just stated in this last paragraph are ONLY thoughts, they dont have any proof other than my own ideas.