»MATRIX and RELIGION«

Please understand that as much as I try to stay away from arguing the point of religion in the Matrix there's for sure lots of influences. I beleive the Matrix should be taken as an oportunity to explore toher mytholgies/religions/texts and not sink on your own.
MY BACKGROUND
I watched the first Matrix At the same time I was beguining to read "The Hero with a Thoundsand Faces" By Joseph Campbell. After which point I gena to read almost ALL of his work, making my 'obcession' with mythology and the Matrix even more intresting. However U did attend a catholic school till 8th Grade and have a very broad christian background in my family.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE BOARD TO ARGUE ABOUT RELIGION

I want to see how many people agree or disgree with my views of the Matrix as far as religions goes. I want to explore where maybe my mind hasn't reached yet and see how many people state they believe the Matrix can be considered religion and if NOT why not without jumping over and making conclusions of someone else's tradition. I Beleive you shouldn't preach your own religion to someone who did not request it (though some doctrines dont agree with this) and that you should respetcs people religion untill you see a beleif poses a physical threat to other human beings. We've seen the world break because people were shoving their traditions down eachother's throat and killing people of different tradition and cultures. ANYWAY here it goes:
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*Crosses fingers hopes the mob doesnt get offended and try to linch him
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Would You Agree?
The Matrix represents a system of beleif. People are kept under control by making them live a make believe world. Religion IS the FOLD that's been put over your eyes to blind you from the truth. That there is no religion (not being specific to any particular beleif) or gods.
That was my impression of the first movie.

THE MATRIX RELOADED complicated things when the prohecy of THE seemed to be real and possible in a world where hope is almost non-existant. HOWEVER the dialog shows a mutual relation ship between Machines and Humans that most religions DO NOT SHOW
When Neo and chancellor Hannan (spelling) are talking
The point shown to me was:
Humans cannot destroy machines without affecting their own life and machines cannot kill humans. So they BOTH Fight to get control of the other. The chancellor says
"Machines are keeping us alive while other machines are coming to kill us"
On the other hand Machines need humans so you could say:
"Humans are keeping the machines alive while other humans are trying to kill them"
WHICH I FIND FACINATING
Most religions and Gods DO NOT HAVE a mutual relationship with each other. The Deities always CONTROL the subjects lifes and fates.
And the main question was:
WHAT IS CONTROL?

SIDEBAR: I do understand if the MwM theory was true and the cancellor was possibly a program you could take coversation in a different manner, but for now I'm taking JUST the dialog.

The machines control humans my means of the Matrix and in zion's population by means of faith. Zion believers trust the prophecy which keeps them under control. (Again suspend your MwM theory)

Can you identify Religion today with the Matrix?
A method of control by rules (beleifs/rules set by a religion/book/group)
Which keeps people under their control.

I dont personally belive in a RELIGION or in a god (suspend your definition of 'god' vs 'God') would you say that billions of people live out their lives without realizing their beleifs are not real. And that their doctrines and teachings are a dream.

What also intrigues me: Is that The Matrix dream world was created to REFLECT or RECREATE or SIMULATE something that WAS real.
It has obviously failed on several ocations. (As stated by the Architech)

DOES THE MATRIX WITH ALL THE FAILURES REFLECT THE RELIGION OF TODAY ATTEMPTING TO KEEP PEOPLE UNDER CONTROL FEEDING THEIR WALLETS AND KEEPING THEM ALIVE.

Remember mytholgy was there to keep us warm and cozy when our lifes were miserable and sad. At one point religion ceased of being and became religion and everyone started to fight and the difiniton of DEVINE became a NOTION that to this day has been unable to be broken.
When I was child I lived in South America I always wondered how could Tribes (of very primitive life style) identify things like cars and TVs etc.
I was told that they would come up with NEW words for the NEW things.
Then I realized that MEANING was just a human notion, like in budhism this are what they are because we accept them to be.

So Religion/Mythology/Theology Are ALL HUMAN NOTIONS
WE NEED THEM AND THEY NEEDS US IN ORDER TO EXIST, however the ORGANIZED RELIGIONS OF TODAY SIMULATE THIS TO KEEP PEOPLE UNDER CONTROL.

Remember the "If a tree falls in the forest where no one can hear it, does it make a sound?" riddle.
So..."Was there a time, when time wasn't?"

I beleive early mythology and religion admited to their own failure to replicate that which was beyond human understanding or maybe even beyond human imagination, and try to respresented in our POOR language in POOR ideas that were ment to show you that THROUGH this stories of gods and demons you would find the rapture of being alive and maybe experience the trancedant.
However religion was taken over by greedy people who used this beleives and fears of the unkown to make them reach and powerful and now our world is a CRAPPY SIMULATION of something that WAS BEFORE.
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*Opens his eyes and hopes the mob won't stone him to death, or burn her for being a witch, or cut of his tonge for stating blasphemies.
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YOUR TOUGHTS

I like your interpretation of the Matrix and religion. But, come on!
Our world is a CRAPPY SIMULATION?
Yes, we have lost touch with the other species. Yes, we are decimating much of our non-renewable resources. Yes, we have 2% of our population successfully gripping 99% of our wealth. Yes, we have children in sweatshops with high fatality rates. Yes, we have oppression and persecution for little to no reason.
But, a CRAPPY SIMULATION?
Being that you are on this board, you have to admit the amazing things that ARE going right.
Our ability to communicate has expanded beyond our wildest dreams.
Thinking globally is now necessary
Our tools have become almost intelligent.
If our scientists are to be believed, we will soon have the ability to alter genetics on an obscene level.
Many doors have been opened for us, although many have closed.
Progress ALWAYS comes at a cost. Every step forward has lasting reverberations. I do not agree with the direction we have taken as a species. I do not think that we have our priorites in order, even in the face of ruin. BUT, the world still shines, and is more amazing and wondrous than seems possible. Hell, our pollution does make the sunsets a little deeper, hue-wise. Right?

"All the tree stumps and gas pumps,
Parking lots and trash dumps,
the world still shines,
no matter how much you f*^$ it up."--ZooBot(the zoological botanist)

Thanx a alot
I didn't mean OUR WORLD in a sense of the beautiful place we live our lives, but OUR RELIGIOUS WORLD.
Your insight is amazing, you're right, at the end of the day:

WE ARE STILL HERE!

The Oracle : "We`re all here to do, what we`re all here to do.
I`m interested in one thing, Neo: the future.
And beIieve me, I know, the only way
to get there is together."

Neo: "Are there other programs like you?"

The Oracle :"Well, not Iike me, but. . . ."

And leads us back to the question of why we are here.

If the world has no meaning beyond existing, , then every search for purpose would be in vain, as everybody would be wrong if they insisted they were right. You could ony define purpose as a way of keeping your mind at peace with the fact that you are alive.

I find it strange that the universe was buildt in a way that allows feelings like love, hope, fear, hate, etc. to exist inside a human mind. It almost seems as theese feelings are the essence of what gives a person purpose, and overrides instinct when necessary. Why are theese feelings so important?

If theese feelings are desired by evolution, then it might seem to be a purpose to them. A purpose we can find by using them.

If they are not desired, we all know that theese feelings are the reason for mankind to go against nature, then why do they exist? We would be able to suvive as a civilisation, and would be much better off without them. Everything else in nature is built to match an exact need, but theese seem not to.

As theese feelings in either way make my life a slavery of them, the purpose of removing them would be good, but would stop to exist if I succeded. So I don't.

To return to the point about discussing religion, I think it is fun to read. It is nice to see how strong our feelings are about this matter. But I think it is a good idea to keep the discussions purely about religion to a seperate thread.

And finally to the Otto point of things going right. Yes, I think evolution is really getting into gear, and would like to know where we end up. But it will be even more interesting know if there was a purpose to it.

::The meaning of life is to give life meaning::

I love how some of the people on this forum will only post when they agree with what is being said and when they don't have to deal with someone else's opinion.

stinkz wrote:

I love how some of the people on this forum will only post when they agree with what is being said and when they don't have to deal with someone else's opinion.

Oh snap! Some peeps just got a glove slapped across their faces!

Religion is coolio. I like it (I'm a Catholic). It's been discussed to death as far as symbolism in the Matrix goes, however.

I like people that think and reply as oppose to read and disregard.

YOUR IDEA OF PURPOSE AND MEANING is intresting, one of the beautiful things of today's society is the freedom to THINK.

In your Post (hopefully i'm not taking this our of context, If I do, you got permission to kick me)

"If the world has no meaning beyond existing, , then every search for purpose would be in vain"

I beleive our definition of MEANING depends largely on the environment you grew in and develop those ideas.
SIDEBAR: It can be said that OCCIDENTAL mythology and WESTERN Mythology became TWO separate things when people in the Western world had to deal with a bad environment associating the bad nature of their land to the bad nature of human beings, while occidental theory move farther east to certain lands of abundance and associated the goodness of humans being the that nature.

Take this little story and tell me what you think (to anyone reading)

The buddha walks with his 12 deciples (like Jesus) and his following crowd, suddenly he stops at a pond and looks at a lotus flower (this plants grow in the water) picks it up and asks:

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THESE FLOWER?

Keep in mind that lotus flowers sometimes float int he water after they bloom, so they were not planted there and they can be moved with very little effort by the current.

My question is what is the meaning of that flower?

can understand the meaning of a simple flower, if we can't, then how could men imply meaning to LIFE or to our WORLD. Those are some of the great mysteries of the universe.

ALSO
We do feel love, fear, doubt, disbelif, pain, hate. But even our languages fail to explain our feelings. At one point it became simple to say: There are no words to discribe HOW I feel; and hopefully if we have experienced life we have used this phrase. Can we really define the broad range of human feelings in words?
I beleive that I dont search for the "meaning" of life, because meaning to me is related to human knowledge and human knowldge can simply change from day to the next. Which is why people feel attacked when their believes are touched. I know I felt attacked when someone challenged my believes when I didn't ask them to, but you have the freedom to choose and to reply to his post or not, but if you're reading this you made the decision to click on the link and read this posts, if so are you here to make a choice or are you here to understand your choice. Everyone knows without communication we would grow into isulation and we'd ended up living only in our minds. So I communicate my feelings and believes to those intrested, and when I feel inspired. hopefully not attacking anyone.

which leads me to my next question and nobody needs to feel preasured on answer it:

If you belive in the meaning of life, and per say one day you find it, what then?

assuming you already know the reason you're here:

what now? is there no reason for you to be here anymore?
which is how some people connect to the Keymaker in the movie, remember Cain and Abel said "He looks like a human" in ETM.
DIALOG
Agent: You are no longer necessary.

Keymaker: We do only what we're meant to do.

Agent: Then you are meant for one more thing. Deletion



YOUR THOUGHTS

I have read your toughts, I have also read cambell's books. there is only one thing I can say, choice, we make a choice, we all have a chioce no matter if we dont know it. you can also change your reality. I'm a shaman
I'm not a "master shaman" there is no master shaman, the my journeys in this worlds and other worlds I seen people in their lives, both the worst and best of humantiy and everyone has the demons, if their choice to do someting, people complain and moan about things that really dont matter.

the gods of mythology are to represnt ourseleves, our best and worst sself, the heros of mythology are to give us hope

I try to live by these words: live your life

Choose Life.

This is our purpose, our meaning, and quite directly "Why We Are Here."

"And what is life?" - "Anything"
"So I can choose anything?" - "Yes"
"So there is nothing I can choose that is not life?" - "Only suicide"

"So all this 'Live you life' and 'Choose life' it all mumbo-jumbo bullshit?" - "Yes"

Dear emp

No nit-picking, no bul$*#t, but life doesn’t let go of you that easy :

Choosing suicide occurs when you’re living.
Attempting suicide occurs when you’re still living.
Failed suicide attempts occurs when you’re hospitalized and still living.
And if eventually you’ll pass away from this world, you’ll maybe still living.

Hence “suicide” is a part of our existence.

I like Atreide's concept of the Matrix-religion analogy. What I'm about to say is likely to offend many people... therefore, the comprehensive disclaimer Atreides was gracious enough to open with... uhhh ditto.
Without further a deux:
Unplugging from the Matrix is akin to rejecting religious beliefs you were raised to embrace. For many people in America, levant based spiritual philosophy is ranned down your throat from birth till death. If not in the home, in schools, on TV, the radio, billboards. I don't think actively embracing Jewish, Christian or Muslim beliefs is a bad thing. The 3 religions, like most other big religions contain some good ideas to facilitate a good moral framework for getting along well in society. They also, in my opinion, contain some very bad notions which, if left unchecked, can cripple a person mentally and spiritually.
In the case of people strangled by overbearing religious environments, conformity and close mindedness often result. However, once these handicaps are overcome, through education or enlightening life experiences or whatever means, the world is percieved differently. Friends and relatives who still kneel to demands of theocratic influence are comparible to people still plugged in. In the Matrix, freed minds can perceive things others can't and do things the virtual Laws of Physics prohibit. To me, people constrained by their faiths live with blinders on, and their actions are mandated and limitted by fear. Either way, liberation occurs when these artificial controls and brainwashing are halted.
But like the Matrix, many people cannot live without their religions... they are not ready to be unplugged. Perhaps they are happier this way. Most religions paint the an unrealisticly nice picture of the world, as the Matrix must be compaired to the Spartan conditions of Zion. The comparisions could go on. I'll not burden you with them, if you believe as I do, you're aware of them already, if not you won't understand. Fortunately, my beliefs do not require you to!

Indeed, EigenValue, comprehension is not a prerequisite of cooperation (for most world religions, that is). But consider that it just might be one for the Wachowski brothers. I think the only real topic of discussion here is what is meant by the films, not what will happen or what it means. Just what, exactly, are the brothers trying to say? Many things, I suppose. They could be making a point against organized religion by comparing the matrix to it, but remember that in Zion, the most important place is called the temple, and Hamman's speech is referred to as a prayer. I think all those writhing dancing bodies could be considered a substantial cult. Religion is the opiate of the masses, after all.

But what if, as emp nearly said, 'the problem is choice'? wouldn't that make sense? there is no meaning to life unless you want there to be. There is no matrix because you can choose to do whatever you want to do. We are not test subjects, willing to live our lives out in peace only if we are aware of a choice at the most unconscious level. If we are, then there is certainly one way to beat the system, and that is through learning. 'We cannot see past the choices that we do not understand'. There will never be a moment in which a believer can discover the meaning of life. There can only be the authentic and passionate pursuit of knowledge and choice. I subscribe to no religion or philosophy, save that which I create for myself. I believe that the brothers want us to consider that we may all be in the matrix, and one step beyond that, they want to pose a question to us all: just what are you going to do about it?

I think if the problem of choice is flawed, then how can we make a choice?
If someone's parents did not allow someone to read books beyond their religion, you cannot expect those people to think in the same way as those who had chance to read them and understand them. We can hope they're not baised when they do get a chance to read them.

I hope The matrix at end will give us a clue as to how we can co-exist without trying to destroy each other. "Old men don't bother with making points, there is no point" As we take our long walk down the path of life, we'll learn the goal IS the journey, and that "it's the question that drives us"

Peace.

So, by not choosing a religion, you can look at all religions from an unbiased standpoint? So only the atheist (or at least agnostic) standpoint is unbiased. Or is it?
Bias comes from a persons beliefs being tainted by what is not true. So, unless atheism or agnosticism is correct, then it cannot be an unbiased standpoint.
I am sorry that you cannot realize that today's society is breeding atheists and agnostics. You have the bias of an agnostic when reading religious works, which stems from what you were taught. Like Edward Roscoe Murrow said, "No one can eliminate prejudices - just recognize them."

Stinkz loves to misinterpret people and cause arguments (altought this time you didn't say "bring it on" like that cheerleader movie)
when I said "Someone's parents" I meant SOMEONE, as in ANY OF us.
I understand my background, I know my backgroud, YOU DONT. ("No one can eliminate prejudices - just recognize them.")
I never said I wasn't biased, but I had to a made a choice at a very early age as to what was going to impress me and bias my view. I did it on my own, it was not forced upon me, and it costed me dearly, but it was worth it and that is why I cherish my mental freedom. (society's breed of atheist doesn't cause it came free to them) I hope for way to co-exist with people like you who Ignoring history, definitions, and facts turn everything we say and do, into arguments, and them claim peple like me are out trying to get you. I hope you will in the future reconsider your defitions of 'religion', 'choice', and 'atheism' or call Webster and have them update those to your own. Untill them I hope I can understand you better and you can try to understand me, if our paths cross again I hope you'll have more wisdom. I hope the same for me.

Thanks

Andromeda wrote:

I never said I wasn't biased, but I had to a made a choice at a very early age as to what was going to impress me and bias my view.

Again you are claiming that you made a clear, unbiased choice at some point in your early life. Well... I'll tell you what. You didn't. No one comes from an unbiased background. What you need to do is recognize this. Once you do this, you will understand WHY you believe what you believe.

I know I came from a Christian background, so naturally I would tend toward Christian beliefs. However, I came to a point in my life where I very much longed to believe that rules and morals were all just "made up" so I could do my own thing. However, my conscience wouldn't let me. Now matter how much I try to rationalize my actions, there is no way I can force myself to believe that morality and ideas of good and evil are just a made up method of control. It just simply isn't true.

Why won't I murder someone? Because it is definately wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts about it... it is wrong. If I grew angry and killed someone, then killed another, and continued hardening myself to where I didn't see it as wrong... it would still be wrong.

When I was a kid, I often would think that my parents were being "unfair" by punishing me. I would try to rationalize my actions by saying things like "other kids are doing it!" or "someone else made me do it!" or "he deserved it!" However, what kind of parents would respond, "since other kids are doing it, it must be ok for you..." or "it must be the fault of the kid who made you do it then" or "well, since you felt he deserved it... you were right to punch him in the face"? These answers are absurd. Even though it may have "felt" justified to punch the kid in the face at the time, doing so would have been wrong.

After years of rebellion, I know now "why" my parents taught me what they did. They taught me to see right and wrong from a perspective free from my own sinful desires.

Mmm It is easy to pick on a peice of writing take something out of context and use it. Did I say the choice was clear? did'nt I say the probelm of choice is flawed? The journey being the goal, and every choice chages your path. Again you seem to be surprisingly good at creating arguments. While I respect your background, you've proven incapable of understanding my posts. This forum was to discuss the movie Matrix, and your posts always take us away from the topic. Enjoy revolutions.

My best regards

There you go... clam up again. You see the difference here? I am open to discussing with you my background and the prejudices leading up to my beliefs. However, when I say anything that relates to you, you just clam up and say "YOU DONT KNOW ME!" I know that I don't. But I do know what I have found to be true in most cases.

The problem is choice.... but the problem isn't flawed. Go to this link and read the last post if you want to hear my take on choice (I doubt you do though)...

I like the analogy. That whole conversation w/ Hamann had had an almost obvious religious connotation to me. In fact, you could substitute "divinity" for "machines" throughout the movie and it would make sense.

Further, Neo is a messiah-like character. Well, the goal of a messiah is to provide atonement between god and man, to help create a mutual relation.

Aside from that, though, since the Matrix is about control, it has a very broad range of application. Sure religion is a means of control. But so is education. So is government. So is economics. So is culture. So is media. so is law. These are all external forces and institutions that attempt to influence and thereby control how we think and who we identify with. Furthermore, these "controls" only exist because people allow them to. Take for instance the American Revolution: aside from war and force, philosophically the Americans took up arguments from John Locke about how a government only has as much authority as its subjects allow, because men have the unalienable right of free will and are therby born equal and free to each other. They used this to show that humans then have the right to act independant of government, even to rebel against it. Education is control- what better way to assimilate a society to believe and think along certain channels? One of the first things many dictators do is to cure illiteracy and fund schools- why? Because literate people can read propaganda. Economics keep the rich rich and the poor poor. Advertising and culture dictate what fashion is acceptable, what foods are good, what lifestyle is desirable etc...

The whole world is a system of control! To simply seize upon religion is shortsighted, although, like I said, I agree with some of what you said.

Also though, your theory of the development of religion also is lacking to me. Humans dont need religion, same as humans dont need to be fashionable or need to participate in politics or to be educated.

What you should focus your theory on is this: IS THERE TRUTH?

For instance, if there is a TRUTH about God, is that what religion teaches, or is religion a simulation designed to lead you to faith?
Or, likewise:
If there is TRUE beauty, is art an imitation of it or is art an artificial simualtion to lead you to appreciate reality?
If there is such a thing as TRUE freedom; do rights granted by government agencies make you free, or do they merely provide a window to freedom?
etc...

Well... according to this line of thinking, anarchy would be what makes mankind totally free. However, is that the case? Anarchy leaves the individual the choice of deciding what is right and wrong for himself. However, since humans are corrupt and self-centered, everyone's views of right and wrong are going to be tainted by their own evil desires. Is this freedom? No. Freedom is being free from our innate sinfulness, which left unchecked would lead to utter chaos.

Government is designed to enforce truth upon people. However, since it is going to be comprised of people, it will inevitably be corrupt. It is then the right of the people to rebel against corrupt leadership. What we need and are striving for through creating governments is a TRUE standard to live by. However, all the systems we set up, even if they are designed to keep people accountable, will still be fundamentally flawed because of human error. Therefore, "Government at its best is a necessary evil...." -Paine.

On another note...
It is wise to see the corruption which plagues religion. However, it is wiser to look through the corruption to see the truth which has been corrupted.

stinkz wrote:

Well... according to this line of thinking, anarchy would be what makes mankind totally free. However, is that the case? Anarchy leaves the individual the choice of deciding what is right and wrong for himself. However, since humans are corrupt and self-centered, everyone's views of right and wrong are going to be tainted by their own evil desires. Is this freedom? No. Freedom is being free from our innate sinfulness, which left unchecked would lead to utter chaos. Government is designed to enforce truth upon people. However, since it is going to be comprised of people, it will inevitably be corrupt. It is then the right of the people to rebel against corrupt leadership. What we need and are striving for through creating governments is a TRUE standard to live by. However, all the systems we set up, even if they are designed to keep people accountable, will still be fundamentally flawed because of human error. Therefore, "Government at its best is a necessary evil...." -Paine. On another note... It is wise to see the corruption which plagues religion. However, it is wiser to look through the corruption to see the truth which has been corrupted.

I disagree- the way I see it, anarchy is the total failure to recognize truth. Man has the ability to reject God's standards, even the freedom to disbelieve there is a God.

Rebellion is permitted then. Even in the biblical account, God allows perfect man to degenerate into that sinful condition- he permits rebelious mankind to populate the earth. It is ours as free willed creation to accept control or not.

Granted, there may be consequences for choosing to reject a system of control. If I murder someone else, I may be found out, arrested and placed in a prison, or my own life might be taken as punishment. Nevertheless, I STILL have the freedom to plan it out and do it anyway- its MY choice.

Truth is truth, its golden. If something is corrupt, it is not true. It cannot be created through government or religion, at best it can only be reflected; but a reflection is only an image, it is not the actual truth.

stinkz wrote:

Well... according to this line of thinking, anarchy would be what makes mankind totally free. However, is that the case? Anarchy leaves the individual the choice of deciding what is right and wrong for himself. However, since humans are corrupt and self-centered, everyone's views of right and wrong are going to be tainted by their own evil desires. Is this freedom? No. Freedom is being free from our innate sinfulness, which left unchecked would lead to utter chaos. Government is designed to enforce truth upon people. However, since it is going to be comprised of people, it will inevitably be corrupt. It is then the right of the people to rebel against corrupt leadership. What we need and are striving for through creating governments is a TRUE standard to live by. However, all the systems we set up, even if they are designed to keep people accountable, will still be fundamentally flawed because of human error. Therefore, "Government at its best is a necessary evil...." -Paine. On another note... It is wise to see the corruption which plagues religion. However, it is wiser to look through the corruption to see the truth which has been corrupted.

I disagree- the way I see it, anarchy is the total failure to recognize truth. Man has the ability to reject God's standards, even the freedom to disbelieve there is a God.

Rebellion is permitted then. Even in the biblical account, God allows perfect man to degenerate into that sinful condition- he permits rebelious mankind to populate the earth. It is ours as free willed creation to accept control or not.

Granted, there may be consequences for choosing to reject a system of control. If I murder someone else, I may be found out, arrested and placed in a prison, or my own life might be taken as punishment. Nevertheless, I STILL have the freedom to plan it out and do it anyway- its MY choice.

Truth is truth, its golden. If something is corrupt, it is not true. It cannot be created through government or religion, at best it can only be reflected; but a reflection is only an image, it is not the actual truth.