»Western vs. Eastern Philosophy«

Those of you who have read my posts, may have noticed that my interpretation of the trilogy is strongly influenced by eastern philosophy. I am far from being an expert in eastern philosophy. In fact, trying to understand the trilogy and the Neodämmerung lyrics in particular, only started me reading about Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism….
I haven't gotten very far, yet, and still,.... what I have read has improved my very own understanding of the trilogy a lot, esp. the book "the Tao of physics" (which I haven't even finished yet) has become a great influence.

I'd like to share with you a few aspects that I consider relevant for the trilogy. I am reading this book in my own language, so please forgive me if I use incorrect terms:


The development of western philosophy has led to dualism, the division of matter and mind -> body and soul. In it’s climax it views matter as dead and the material world as a huge machine composed of a collection of different objects -> mechanical view.

Descartes’ “Cogito ergo sum” influenced westerners into finding their identity in their mind, rather than in their whole organism. They viewed themselves as isolated egos, living inside their body. Every individual was further divided into different “sections”, based on its activities, talents, feelings, believes etc.
This “inner” division of man mirrors in his view of the “outer” world, which was viewed as a diversity of different objects and processes; a world consisting of different parts, which were described in categories, subcategories….
This view mirrors also in our society, which has been divided into different nations, races, political and religious groups…
The western world is a mechanical world and a world of divisions. We ourselves are divided, as is our environment and our society.

In contrast to the western, mechanical view of the world stands the eastern, organic view.
In eastern philosophy, every thing and every process perceived by our senses, belong together and are merely different aspects and manifestations of the same reality.
Dividing our perceived world into different categories and viewing ourselves as isolated egos, is considered an illusion, resulting from our measuring and categorizing mentality. This mentality is being viewed as an unbalanced state of the mind that has to be overcome.
Even though different in details, all eastern philosophies emphasize the oneness of the universe as the basis of their teachings. It is the highest goal to realize the oneness, the reciprocal relationship of all things and to identify with the „ultimate reality“.
Becoming aware of this ultimate reality – enlightenment – is not an intellectual process, it cannot be taught. It is an experience that involves the person as a whole.

There are two different ways for the human mind to think and feel: rational and intuitive.
The western world lays more weight on the rational, scientific thinking, as opposed to the traditional eastern world.

Rational thinking is an intellectual thinking, based on differentiating, dividing, comparing, measuring and categorizing.
An important quality of rational thinking is abstraction. In order to compare and classify the endless diversity of forms, structures and phenomena all around us, we cannot consider every single aspect. So the rational mind constructs an intellectual map of the world, based on the contours of things. Rational knowledge is a system of abstract terms and symbols, characterized by a linear, consistent structure, typical for our thinking and speaking.
The natural world, however, is a world of endless diversity and complexity. It is not a world of straight lines and clear forms, events don’t happen chronologically, but simultaneously.
The abstract system of conceptual thinking will never be able to fully describe or understand this reality, just like a map is not the land.

Eastern philosophies speak of “higher” (religious consciousness) and “lower” (sciences) knowledge (-> as described in the Upanishads), of “relative” and “absolute” knowledge and “limited” and “transcendent” truth (-> Buddhism).
Eastern philosophy is devoted to an experience of reality that goes beyond rational thinking, pervading also our sensory perception. Knowledge stemming from this experience is called “absolute knowledge”. Because it doesn’t rely on the differentiations, abstractions and classifications of the intellect, which can be no more than relative and approximate. Absolute knowledge is the full understanding and experience of the undifferentiated, undivided and indefinite “being”.
According to eastern philosophy the ultimate reality cannot be an object of logic conclusion and demonstrable knowledge. It cannot be adequately described with words, since it lies beyond our senses and our intellect, from which our terms and words stem.

“There the eye does not go, nor speech, nor the mind.
We do not know, we do not understand how one can teach this.
Different, indeed, is it from the known,
and also it is above the unknown.
Thus have we heard from the ancients who explained it to us.”
- Kena Upanisad

Lao-tzu, who calls the ultimate knowledge “Tao”, says: “The Tao which can be expressed in words is not the eternal Tao”.

“When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.”
- Katha Upanisad and Neodaemmerung lyrics


In eastern philosophy, dividing nature into different objects doesn’t make sense, since all objects have a flowing, constantly changing character. The eastern world-view is dynamic; essential aspects are “time” and “change”. The universe is viewed as an indivisible reality, always in motion, living, organic.
Since movement and change are essential characters of things, the powers which cause these movements lie not beyond these things, as in the classical western view. Rather these powers are inner and integral characters of things, of matter.
Accordingly, the view of deity is not the image of a god who rules from above. It is a principle which affects the world from within.

Interestingly in Revolutions Neo wears an indian style collar, symbolising his connection to eastern philosophy while smith wears a traditional western business suit. This shows the opposition of the two philosophies, supporting Barthes theory of binary oppositions in media texts.

Very nice. I like it.

Nice review tozy!

The question if East and West can never meet, I see as definitely answered in the example of the Matrix: there they do meet.

They also meet in myself since I'm half chinese, half european. Which can be experienced as a clash between two cultures almost every day, but there are meeting points between the twine:

Example: One of the main themes (if not *the* main theme) of the Gospel of Thomas: is Oneness.

One lost culture (can't remember its name) of Central Asia is another example which merged both Hellenistic (greek) and Asian cultures.

Early Christianity in China (introduced by Persians in the 7th century I think) also displayed a merging of east and west. The gospel was expressed by the notion of karma, and finding one's origin instead of speaking of sin. (And yes, it was definitely Christianity, but was called the Religion of Light by the chinese).

Why don't they meet more often? It takes a lot of energy and a main change of mind-set to appreciate other paradigms and civilisations. But closed-mindedness is what gets us in trouble time after time! We should appreciate diversity, even diversity of world-views. I believe, in judaism, it's seen as advantageous of getting to know other religions because G-d has a 1000 faces (or something like that; maybe someone can fill it in on that).


/z

Yaldaboath wrote:

Interestingly in Revolutions Neo wears an indian style collar, symbolising his connection to eastern philosophy while smith wears a traditional western business suit. This shows the opposition of the two philosophies, supporting Barthes theory of binary oppositions in media texts.

The western aspect is even more obvious in Merv:

About the chateau:
"We also looked at a lot of Venetian villas because we had that underground feeling – the floor pattern in the Lower Hallway came out of a typical Venetian piazza. So we borrow all these things and put them all together, looking for the classic European feeling, The Merovingian feeling: Western philosophy, Western European heritage. You have to have the visual imagery that matches that philosophical style because there’s so much storyline. Larry and Andy have thought about the history of philosophy so much that you have to give the visual clues that backup their story. You have to match the same sense of opulence that they’re speaking about, and they’re speaking about the history of Western man."
whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com...

In that respect, Merv and the Oracle are opposites, as represented in their understanding of causality and control:

The Western world often views its own choices as too small to sway something as big as causality because it’s focusing on the outside. The Eastern world focuses on the inside, so its own choices mean everything to it.

Merv believes that the world is out of control and we are victim to a causality that makes us a helpless link in the chain of events. He focuses on understanding why things happen, on controlling things around him through knowledge about the world. As for himself,.... he IS out of control,...he indulges in the voluptuousness of life.

Whereas the Oracle represents a causality that involves us as an important part of the path the events take. With our choices, our effects to the causes that happen upon us, we affect the further chain of events. As Buddha says: "I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act."
So, the Oracle focuses on controlling ourself,... on "know thyself", on understanding our own choices to understand and affect the world from within ourselves.

zynxamek wrote:

Nice review tozy!

Thanks!

To avoid a misunderstanding:
The book describes the similarities between the ancient eastern knowledge of the oneness of the universe and a fourth dimension (time-room dimension -> I have the feeling that by the time I have finished reading the book I might understand Neo's sight/dreams...), as experienced in enlightenment, with the "secrets" that modern physics (Quantum physics and relativity theory) reveal about our universe.
My "review" is merely a brief and incomplete summary of an introduction in the beginning.

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They also meet in myself since I'm half chinese, half european

That's interesting! Do they also meet in your world view?

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Why don't they meet more often?

I believe they do meet. All major religions are a means to help mankind comprehend the world and live a "good" live. The path may be very different, but they meet in the result. (At least they do theoretically. What humans make of their religions is another matter...)

But I believe that - for example - Christianity and Buddhism will never meet on more than this result. And that is ok, as long as there is acceptance.
I agree with the Dalai Lama who says in the introduction to his book "the four noble truths":
"I believe that all the major world religions have the potential to serve humanity and develop good human beings. By "good or "nice", I don't mean that people look good; I mean that they have a good and more compassionate heart. This is why I always say that it is better to follow one's own traditional religion, because by changing religions you may eventually find emotional or intellectual difficulties.
(...)
Whether or not we like the philosophy of other religions isn't really the point. For a non-Buddhist, the idea of Nirvana and a next life seems nonsensical. Similarily, to Buddhists the idea of a Creator God sometimes sounds like nonsense. But these things don't matter; we can drop them. The point is that through these different tradidtions, a very negative person can be transformed into a good person. That is the purpose of religion - and that is the actual result. This alone is a sufficient reason to respect other religions."

And that is how I understand the merging of western and eastern ideas in the Matrix trilogy. They are not merged into one big meaning. Rather they are different and equally appropriate approaches to the problem and solution as described in the trilogy, all resulting in Neo's sacrifice in the end.
I believe the moment starting with the cross of light in Neo's chest is a beautiful example.
For Christians it may be an analogy to Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins.
For Hinduists it may be an analogy to the this description of the act of dying: "Then the [uppermost] point of one's heart, where the nerves join [the sushumna] is lighted by the light of the Self, and by that light the dying departs either through the eye, through the gate of the skull, or through some other aperture of the body",... as an enlightened soul.

Both religions with their different aspects can be "at home" in this one metaphor; Just brilliant!

Quote:

To avoid a misunderstanding

oh, ... oh, ok, ... alright ...

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The development of western philosophy has led to dualism, the division of matter and mind -> body and soul.

That's right: this is one thing western philosophy has been wrestling with for several centuries now: western philosophers know that something's wrong. In a way, it already began with Platon by dividing object and concept (something like that). I believe quantum physics will be (actually already is) the remedy.

Quote:

the "secrets" that modern physics (Quantum physics and relativity theory) reveal about our universe.

... reveal about the Matrix universe?

Btw, I've been playing with some quantum concepts in certain places in the film. I don't think it's too far fetched that some quantum physics could be involved! It'll be interesting to compare some quantum thoughts applied the Matrix universe when you've finished reading!...


/z

Wow....good job tozy. Always a fan of your views.

What you say on Eastern and Western philosophies is right on.

I do also believe that they meet and merge and the Matrix is the best example.

Oh yea....I too want to read `The Tao of Physics' and am looking for a copy. What you guys are saying about the understanding of the Gold Code, Neo's sight and Quantum Physics is true. I heard that this is the book the Wachowski's were thinking about when they talk about the meeting of Buddhism and Quantum Physics.

Oh yea....and its Hindu, not Hinduistic.

Also....I know it doesn't pertain 100%, but I think you would be interested in reading this toxy:

zynxamek wrote:

Btw, I've been playing with some quantum concepts in certain places in the film. I don't think it's too far fetched that some quantum physics could be involved! It'll be interesting to compare some quantum thoughts applied the Matrix universe when you've finished reading!...

Go ahead,.. post your thoughts!
I am glad if my - when it comes to physics pretty poor - mind can comprehend what I am reading about quantum physics and relativity theory. So I am not sure if I will be able to contribute to a fruitful discussion. But I am certainly interested in your thoughts; and there might be others joining in on the discussion who are more familiar with modern physics than I am.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Oh yea....and its Hindu, not Hinduistic

Thanks Akshat, I appreciate it.

And thanks for the link. I remember that I read this essay shortly after Reloaded was released; in fact, it started me on considering Goedel. It will be interesting to get back to this essay with Revolutions and the many thing that I have learned since in mind...

You asked me, tozy:

Quote:

Quote: They also meet in myself since I'm half chinese, half european That's interesting! Do they also meet in your world view?

Well, it's hard to say, since I'm mostly in some kind of rebellion towards the western world I'm living in. I've always felt like I'm in a sort of minority in society. Not until recently, I have understood that this feeling of being in minority is partly due to my asian mind-set. Someone who knows me, who had been working in Japan, came home again and exclaimed: "Everyone there is just like you!"

So it's hard to really know what my western side is all about, since I'm rebellious toward the society which represents it. hmmm.... It's always hard define something by what it **isn't** is.

There's a theory that the Indo-European languages (Greek, Romanic languages, Slavic languages, Germanic languages (in which English is included), Persian languages) is not really related in the natural sense that all of these languages stems from one single language that was talked by some people someplace in southern Russia. This alternative theory goes that when the agricultural revolution spread over Europe (maybe through a certain people that talked "indo-european"), it carried with it many technical words that were adapted by every place the technology came to. (Just like the terms of IT nowadays). It was so totally sucked up by Europe that they developed very similar vocabularies.

Here's my point: The West is about entrepreneurship (agriculture just being the first step). A certain mental direction from the old towards the new. It could be science, technology, corporations, media and culture, new frontiers, and so on. When it's unbalanced, unrestricted, it has been done at the expense of other people's resources, both inside and outside the West.

"Whatever you think you know about" apostle Paul "is irrelevant. He is considered by many authorities to be" the one who created Christianity, (especially the orthodox/catholicism?) Very West indeed: a sort of religious entrepreneur, "change for its own sake" kind of thing. Judaism, Eastern Christianity and Ethiopia
hasn't been as "dogmatic" and has retained much of its own world-view.

There is a forward flow, I believe, in the mental orientation of the West, a belief of a sort of evolution embedded in all levels of society that begs to be driven forth.


So does East and West meet in me? Yes, I believe it does, but not without a measure of friction. I am a visionary (my west side) but my ideals are very much centered on holistic solutions (my eastern side).

There you go: to make a short question into a very long answer!

/z

zynxamek, thanks for your answer!
I'd like to ask you a few more questions. Please feel free to tell me when it gets too personal or too much into detail!

Obviously, you live in northern Europe. Has your Chinese heritage been an influence in your upbringing? Do you speak Chinese? Have Chinese culture, values etc. been present in your life?
In short, would you consider your asian mind-set a result of your genetic heritage? Or is it rather a result of your cultural heritage? Or both?

Sure, no problem

Both my parents were 1st generation immigrants to the US. My Chinese father studied in Boston, and my Swedish mother got a job as laboratory assistant. I think the bad situation with the Culture Revolution(?) made the US grant US citizenship to Chinese students studying in the US.

At that time my father was the only person in his Chinese family living in the US. But already in Shanghai he was very West oriented, listened a lot to classical music from the West. I have the impression that he wanted to be as middle class American as possible: tennis, downhill skiing and beach vacation, watching golf, football, and baseball on the weekends, cocktail and bridge parties, lobster and beer, BBQ, etc, etc. ...

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Has your Chinese heritage been an influence in your upbringing?

Not as I can think of. If so, then purely morally and behavioristic.

Quote:

Have Chinese culture, values etc. been present in your life?

The only Chinese culture was Chinese food. From when I was 9 or 10 there came a few more Chinese relatives to the US. Our older Chinese cousin took us to Bruce Lee films at the movies. There were also some artifacts at our home like Chinese paintings and a few photographs of his father and mother, himself and his sister.

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Do you speak Chinese?

No. Though I have studied 1 year beginner's Chinese in college. I did understand Chinese at one point when I was a year old or so. My father talked Chinese and my mother talked Swedish, and I understood both. But I wouldn't talk. They were afraid, and began talk English instead. (If they knew what they know today, they would have probably continued with Chines and Swedish).

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In short, would you consider your asian mind-set a result of your genetic heritage? Or is it rather a result of your cultural heritage? Or both?

My asian mind-set (what I think is an Asian mind-set) I believe is basically from my genetic heritage to my own surprise. I guess I could be a peculiar type of introvert in psychoanalytic terms, but I find more and more in common with asiatic ways of seeing things, and I take all the more for granted that my mental make-up is very much a genetic trait. That's my working hypothesis right now at least.

Everytime I hear people tell about people and environments from the East, I feel just like home. One artist told me about the spiritual world in everyday Indonesia where she lives most of the year for health reasons. I figured that over there I probably wouldn't be considered being someone fantasizing a whole lot of crap all the time as sometimes people think here about me!

Have I straightened out all the question marks?

/z

will be out of town (without computer) for over a week, so see you guys later!

(guys, or gals? "I always thought you were a guy" "Most guys do!")

Cool thread on Kurt Godel and Zen thematrixonlineboards.warnerbros.com....


/z

Look at what I found in Aksha's link about Gödel :he wrote "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid ".

Golden braid ? Man, it reinforces my theory about the link between Gödel's theory and the golden code.

Just wanted to manifest my joy at this discovery ....

So, Aksha, I guess that now you understand better how the anomaly really works ?

I thought the Philosophy Forum was a much better place for this thread.

*moves topic*

Quote:

Look at what I found in Aksha's link about Gödel :he wrote "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid ". Golden braid ? Man, it reinforces my theory about the link between Gödel's theory and the golden code. Just wanted to manifest my joy at this discovery .... So, Aksha, I guess that now you understand better how the anomaly really works ?

Interesting posts guys. Tozy, I have read 'Tao of Physics' and it is really cool. I can completely relate to your excitement about the book. Some time back I read a book called "Dancing with Wu Li Masters' by Gary Zukove, another physicist and it has the same insight as that of Fritjof Capra of Tao.

Also, there is a scripture called "Yog Vasishta' written in about 800 BC and is organized in sections such as Creation, Sustenance, Transformation & Dissolution. It has lots of little stories and sub-plots (like matrix) intended to reveal spiritual thought. A great English translation is available at Barnes & Nobels by author called Swami Venkateshananda and the book goes by the name "Vasishta's Yoga" You may like to read that too.

I've started reading "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet" by Benjamin Hoff. It is very interesting. I wonder what A.A.Milne would have said, lol!

Perhaps he would say...
One day, in summar of 1983, Winnie the Pooh got fever, it was Tao-fied.