»Why doesnt Seraph do a fight-test with Morpheus in M1?«

It came to my mind something trick.
In M1, when Morpheus and Neo go to see the Oracle, there is no Seraph
and also, no "fight-to-know" test, to check if morpheus is really morpheus.

Also, the Oracle is in her home, with all those potentials.

neo flies to the oracle home, but nobody is there, and the apartment seems to
be abandoned...

the Oracle is NOT seen in her home in M2. in ETM, the oracle (new-face oracle)
is shown in her home, but with another face, telling that someone took her shell.

in M1, the oracle gives a cookie to Neo, but no red-pill-similar stuff..

my point : maybe the M2's Oracle is FAKE. the fake oracles NEEDS a protection (seraph) while the real oracle does not. .. but why ? Maybe at the time of
meeting between neo and the oracle in M2, the real oracle has already been taken
over... and the smiths evil laugh in M3 is just some kind of consequence of all this.

my brain is burning !!! please, if somebody finds a hole in my argument, please
let me know...

Dear Strav

The greatest hole in your hypotheses is that is based on “speculation”

1.In the Movies as you know Morpheus never enters Oracle’s presence, and at that time, Neo has not been recognized as “the one”, also please notice that yhere is no evidence in the Matrix movie that your “Matrix appearance is different form your allegedly Non Matrix appearance.”

2. Morpheus could have passed the test with Seraph before.

3. Consider that the Oracle at the garden in M2 is fake, but as we see she is protected by Seraph. On the other hand the Oracle in the Enter the matrix is “real”, but you have certainly noticed that this Oracle is also protected by Seraph. Now you must either argue that both these Oracle are fake or both real, or that we have two Seraphs with the same lookout

4. You propose that she was taken before her meeting with Neo by Merovingian or anybody else, therefore this fake one is protected by Seraph. Regarding the story timeline Niobe or Ghost meet with the Oracle after her first visit by our protagonist Neo. Also the Oracle in the EtM does not feed either cookie or red candy to Niobe or Ghost, and she is still is protected by Seraph.

I assume that all this discrepancies and similar issues are due to the unexpected passing away of our beloved Gloria Foster, undoubtedly this has caused the W Bros to introduce non contradictory elements to the script of the Enter the Matrix and the movie sequels.

I hope I could have been of some help.

Regards,

Atreides

I believe that the old man from M1 that Morpheus nods to was the guardian. The guardian recognized Morpheus and let him go.

However, with the discovery of The One, I think that the Oracle upgraded her guardian into Seraph. The discovery of The One would increase the chances of enemies trying to get to the Oracle, thus she needs protection more than when Morpheus was still trying to find The One.

As for the Oracle's face inconsistency in which we see Mary Alice's Oracle before Gloria Foster's (chronologically, the ETM kitchen scene takes place before the playground/pre-Burly Brawl scene in RELOADED), the reason is simply because Gloria didn't shoot anything for ETM, so they had no choice but to have Mary do it.

@BatmAngelus

Another strong argument.

BatmAngelus wrote:

chronologically, the ETM kitchen scene takes place before the playground/pre-Burly Brawl scene in RELOADED

I suppose you have played the game. The conversation between Oracle and Niobe or Ghost happens after the destruction of the Power plant, hence playground/pre-Burly Brawl scene, and even after the also after Neo`s coma, as you`ll see in the dialogue :

Niobe : Then Neo is alive?
Oracle : Yes. He touched the Source and separated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.
Niobe : Can we free him?
Oracle : Trinity can. But she will have to fight her way through hell to do it.

What made you think otherwise?

Regards,

Atreides

Sorry for the confusion. The kitchen scene in ETM that I was referring to is the one where she talks with Seraph. It takes place after Ballard fights Seraph and Smith takes over Bane.

No, I have not played the game, I read a transcript online. I do not know if Mary Alice is seen in the Seraph conversation scene or if her face is in the shadows. From what Strav was saying, I thought that he was referring to this scene with Seraph and that Mary Alice's Orace was seen chronologically before Gloria Foster's Oracle. But now, re-reading it I can see that I was probably wrong in that assumption and Mary's face is in shadows in that scene.

Unless, the other guy WAS referring to the post-coma conversation...

atreides wrote:

1.In the Movies as you know Morpheus never enters Oracle’s presence, and at that time, Neo has not been recognized as “the one”,

But neo , at M1, had never gone to oracle too, and he enters the apartment, see oracle, and he could be a danger to her, and should pass some kind of test.
Maybe the orphan/spoon was the test... ?

atreides wrote:

2. Morpheus could have passed the test with Seraph before.

but that does not garantee all morpheus visit are done by a real morpheus...

atreides wrote:

3. Consider that the Oracle at the garden in M2 is fake, but as we see she is protected by Seraph. On the other hand the Oracle in the Enter the matrix is “real”,

how are you so sure about that ?

atreides wrote:

4. You propose that she was taken before her meeting with Neo by Merovingian or anybody else, therefore this fake one is protected by Seraph. Regarding the story timeline Niobe or Ghost meet with the Oracle after her first visit by our protagonist Neo. Also the Oracle in the EtM does not feed either cookie or red candy to Niobe or Ghost, and she is still is protected by Seraph.

but where it is written that this oracle (in niobe/ghost meeting) is real ?

my comparison is between the oracle from M1 oracle from m2/ETM, not between oracle with face1 and face2. I think it is too much of strange this lack of test in M1.
Or, as somebody posted above, maybe the old guy sat on the hall in M1 was the guardian... but, still , there was no test..

atreides wrote:

I hope I could have been of some help.

Thanks, it helped sure, but I still feel intrigated by this.

Dear Strav,

Your whole argument is base upon what is real or not?

Who says I "am" real ?

Nevertheless an engaging hypotheses.

Regards,

Atreides.

No , I am just raising a question that I have not seen around ... Why the
brothers would invent this seraph test ? The fact that there is no fact in M1 and
there is in M2 and ETM does not show something about a difference in the m1 oracle and m2 oracle. Why the oracle is so more suceptible to attacks in M2 and lives so peacifully in M1 ?

Maybe the reason why she has no gaurdian in M1 is because Smith is not a threat yet. Is the test to determine that it is not Smith (maybe worried that he could copy his program across without chaning their appearance) or maybe been reprogramed with candy/cookies/pills etc. Anyway my guess is that that Seraph is there to protect against Smith. btw I'm not discounting the posibility that generaly the threat is greater since the re-emergance of the One. i.e. the games don't begin until the One is found.

I see the Seraph test as a way to tie in a kind of oriental martial arts philosophy to the storyline. They've done everything... from vampires to buddhism to explanations for what we see on the National Inquirer.

Phaeton wrote:

Maybe the reason why she has no gaurdian in M1 is because Smith is not a threat yet. ... the games don't begin until the One is found.

you have a point. It means that the Oracle knows about multi-smith problem.

but we can notice that seraph calls her to get away, because he also feels that Smith is about to come. How come seraph can feel Smith presence too ?

Maybe seraph is child-thread of Oracle process ? .. you know, something that I could
create with pthread_create.... ? A thread specific to be a oracle protection ?
maybe child threads in Matrix process scheduler are seen in yellow, while top-level process are seen in green...

the role of seraph still intrigates me a lot...

Very interesting Idea about Seraph. Straight after seeing M2 I had the opinion that Seraph was like a fire wall, and that his code was like a barrier to Smiths cloning abilities. After watching M2 a couple of times more a thought that maybe Seraphs code is yellow because he is from another matrix, a yellow coded one, like Zion from the trailers seems to be an orange coded one. Could be wrong just guessing wildly.

Phaeton wrote:

Straight after seeing M2 I had the opinion that Seraph was like a fire wall, and that his code was like a barrier to Smiths cloning abilities. After watching M2 a couple of times more a thought that maybe Seraphs code is yellow because he is from another matrix, a yellow coded one, like Zion from the trailers seems to be an orange coded one.

Good guess, but I dont believe his from another matrix, even because I am not a MWAMer. But the firewall idea is great.. Maybe a threaded firewall ?

my questions persist :

- was the M1 oracle the same as M2 oracle
- if so, why seraph didnt make a test with morpheus in M1 ?
- why seraph is able to preview the short future and know that smith is about to come

@Strav:

The answers to your question are not a mystery in my opinion. I think it is obvious that the creator of the matrix, the Architect, knows that Smith has not returned to the source, and thus tells his companion, the Oracle, that there is a threat in the system. This is why she activates her bodyguard.

I think the perimiter around the playground was monitored by Seraph, or he recieved information about it, so that when there was strange code approaching, he would be notified.

when Neo first went to the oracle, he was just another 'potential' like the rest of the kids. he hadn't proved to be dangerous at all and, because the oracle knows the future, sensed that he wouldn't be a threat. The same with morpheus, she could see he really believed in what he was doing. Also, I don't think the oracle is important to the system then (if she died, another could be made, and who would want to kill her? She's part of the system so no agents would, and the rebels think she's helping them. her only threat is the merovingian, who probably didn't realise her significance), and she probably couldn't be 'killed' by guns or whatever.

But when Smith began cloning in reloaded, they realised he could clone the oracle and know all the oracle does (something which I think happens in M3 (the shot of Smith laughing)) and so Seraph was made in order to protect her from Smith.

Also, the fact that the merovingian didn't want to kill or capture the oracle during M1 (like he did to the keymaker) shows that either a) he doesn't know enough about the system, b) it's a mistake by the directors that can't be explained or c) that he didn't want ultimate power back then (he wasn't as evil, as persophone said he was different 'back-then') or mabey he hadn't thought of that evil plan in M1.

Mabey seraph was only created once the keymaker was captured, as they feared the merovingian would capture the oracle. but also, why didn't the system send agents to rescue the keymaker? mabey the agents don't know about the ONE system, and only the architect, merovingian and oracle do. Or mabey the system thought that Neo would try and save the keymake for himself which made their attack on Zion easier, because some of the rebels wouldn't be ready to defend.

If all actions of the charcters where supposed to be purpose...
The Oracle then was 'made' to talk to Neo in her kitchen, it was her purpose.

She made him discover he was the One ("Maybe in your next life" )
and her purpose was gone (just like Smith's)
So, her job in the Matrix was finished in a way. I think that is why Neo meets her on the playground ("the place where all old programs go if they refuse to return to the source")

Now, again like Smith, she has become an opponent of the Matrix, by not doing what she is told/ made to.
Therefore she might need the protection, because also the Matrix itself wants to 'remove' the Oracle from the system. Thus Seraph was called to protect her being.

Neo is the one, meaning he fights better/ more effectionate then Matrix-programs (Agents).
Seraph doesn't need to know by fighting if Neo is the one, Seraph wants to know if Neo is not an Agent in discuise...

I think it's pretty clear that prior to Neo's emergence as "The One" there was no need for the Oracle to have a protector. Virtually all the events that are important in Reloaded were set in motion as a direct result of Neo's transformation into "The One." Prior to that, there was no danger, nothing to fear.

Okay you guys are missing an observation that I thought i'd point out. They may help you decided the exact purpose of Seraph.

In Matrix:Reloaded Neo rushes back to the Oracles apartment and notices she isn't there.. and he goes "Where are you?". Now from a few of the trailers and the EntertheMatrix videos you realize that the change in the Oracles look (yes the actress playing her died but they actually worked it into the script) is because the Merovigian (I believe it was him if memory serves me right) captures her and alters her (some form of punishment for aiding Neo I believe.. they'll explain this in Revolutions anyways).

So why wasn't she at the apartment back in the early part of Reloaded and why did Seraph show up later with her and test Neo? Simply because the Merovingian was trying to capture her (which happens after the Burly Brawl.

Playing EnterTheMatrix would have helped people realize this. But i'm sure Revolutions will touch on it in the early stages.

OK, to summarise..

Strav wrote:

I am just raising a question that I have not seen around ... Why the brothers would invent this seraph test ? The fact that there is no fact in M1 and there is in M2 and ETM...

Well..

BatmAngelus wrote:

The discovery of The One would increase the chances of enemies trying to get to the Oracle, thus she needs protection more than when Morpheus was still trying to find The One.

And...

emp wrote:

I think it is obvious that the creator of the matrix, the Architect, knows that Smith has not returned to the source, and thus tells his companion, the Oracle, that there is a threat in the system. This is why she activates her bodyguard.

Both seem reasonable to me, so we could use the common factor and answer the question "Because she is in more danger in M2 than M1". Looks like that's that wrapped up.

Strav wrote:

but we can notice that seraph calls her to get away, because he also feels that Smith is about to come. How come seraph can feel Smith presence too ?

Wow you read a lot into a gentle pat on the shoulder

You're presuming he feels smith approaching, he doesn't actually say "smith is coming" or anything does he?

Instead of thinking of Seraph as having pregognition or the ability to detect other programs (which he might well have if he's a "firewall" program)...

Think of him as a guy with a watch.

He allows the oracle a certain amount of time, less than the time it takes to trace them. When the time is up - which is how it is described in the film after all - he escorts here away.

OK Then, what about this - if you like alternative theories?

The presumption has always been "The Oracle and Seraph leave when Smith Approaches".

But it could be said "Smith Approaches when the Oracle and Seraph Leave"

Both could be said to describe the scene, yet their meanings differ greatly.

When the Saraph said " I protect that which is most important" I couldn't help but thinking of the whole story as taking place in a computer program. I can't help thinking of the Seraph more or less as a Firewall, he had to scan Neo's system before allowing him to interact with the oracle, the fight was a visualisation of that. It makes me laugh but, possibly this was not required in M1 as the Oracle was in her main server, her home, and protection was already in place, or maybey Neo rode in on Morpheouses program like an e-mail attachment You know like those boxes that say " Always trust content from Microsoft , check yes or no" Except she checked the one that said always trust content from Morpheous. The e-mail thing is a bit ridiculous but I truly feel like the Seraph was meant to represent a Firewall, or other program protection device.

seraph isn't just protecting the oracle, he is protecting what is 'most important' which, in reloaded, was the oracle. but why not the keymaker? mabey Neo was destined to save him, in order to distract from the machine attack on zion.

Mabey the machines knew that Neo had the power to fight machines outside of the matrix (a power he got from smith) and so knew they couldn't destroy Zion if he was there helping the resistance so got him to save the keymaker as a distraction (and the merovingian is a program designed to be a 'distraction').

Also, in Enter the Matrix, the keymaker gave Niobi and ghost a key that Cane and Abel then stole. He said it was meant for the one. but then at the end he is making another one. why is it important if he can make loads of copies??

your all missing the most important point... the oracle is the one... look at her... shes the best actor in the whole damn film...Gloria Foster rocked... RIP

The reason why Seraph did the fight test with Neo is because Neo is the most powerful person in the matrix, and Seraph is also quite powerful, so if Neo bettered him, he'd know he was the one, but if Morpheus was beaten by Seraph that wouldn't mean anything, I think the Oracle just knew that it was Morpheus, plus there have been plenty of "poser" ones, so maybe that was a form of confirmation.