»Neo is the Deus Ex Machina«

Inevitability, you seem to be suggesting that the Deus Ex Machina could apply to any of those definitions. The only problem with that is that (a) all the definitions mean pretty much the same thing and (b) Deus Ex in M3 actually LOOKS LIKE a Deus Ex Machina from Greek plays, wheras the ones in the other two defintions would not have that quality.

dedalus wrote:

the final fight between neo and smith would still be going on, and would never end?

Erh... do I really need to point that Neo is not immortal and that he need rest for time to time ? That Smith is a program and that he could have attacked with his army if he was not so sure of winning ?
You clearly see that Neo is exhausted at the end, he barely stand on his feet after only a few minutes !

It was inevitable, Smith would have won, there is no doubt in that. Face it : Neo is only the bait, Deus Ex is the solution.

a very interesting point fatpie.

Okay I looked up webster and the 1st definition makes perfect sense.

1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

If we go by the first definition then it makes perfect sense. Since the machine decides the final outcome by plugging Neo to the matrix.

heres is the url incase you want to check it out:

webster.com...

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Erh... do I really need to point that Neo is not immortal and that he need rest for time to time ?

no. but for all intents and purposes, neo is also program when he is in the matrix. as long as the deus could keep neo's body alive, neo could keep fighting. and who knows . . . perhaps the deus could have housed the code of the one in another body after neo's body died, and then the one and the anti-one could continue their fight indefinitely.

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That Smith is a program and that he could have attacked with his army if he was not so sure of winning ? You clearly see that Neo is exhausted at the end, he barely stand on his feet after only a few minutes !

neos' exhaustion is not proof that smith could have beaten neo without his consent. it just means that neo is getting sick of fighting. his fatigue seems to point to a tired will more than to an inability to continue resisting. trinity's dead, and neo is losing his will to fight. he's not losing his ability to continue, just the will to make use of that ability. remember, oracle-smith's vision of victory comes right before neo chooses to die. if neo's choice was not a necessary component of smith's victory, smith could have simply broken neo over his knee in the first ten seconds of the fight and neo would have died. or, as you pointed out, all of the smiths could have attacked neo at once. but i believe that neo would have survived a fight against all the smiths if he had to. he couldn't have won, but he could have lasted just as long as he did against oracle-smith, which was long enough to see that he was not fighting smith because there was a possibility of defeating him, but because it was necessary for him to come to an understanding about the nature of conflict itself, and about the inability of binary opposites to deconstruct themselves until the two opposing sides become equal. don't forget, this is a film we're talking about, and the subtext is just as important as, or more important than, the surface-level narrative.

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It was inevitable, Smith would have won, there is no doubt in that. Face it : Neo is only the bait, Deus Ex is the solution.

looks like we'll have to disagree on this one. if indeed you are correct, how do you account for all the yin / yang imagery and the emphasis the film places upon neo's choice? is it all some cheap, red-herring narrative technique meant to draw viewers away from the real implications of the film? or just a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing? or were the filmmakers exploring the futility of the conflict between binary opposites and suggesting that in order to transcend the petty limitations of worldviews based on binary opposites, one must be willing to let go of the oversimplified concepts of winning and losing that perpetuate those very same worldviews?

d

Maybe this thread should be headed: "Neo is the Deus Ex Machina for the machines". In the same way it is true to say that the Deus Ex Machina is the the Deus Ex Machina for the Zionists. Who else could call off the sentinels?

It might be said that Neo and the other ones (you might even be able to call them his previous incarnations) caused the machines their problems in the first place. However, as the leader of the machines and Zero One, you could say the same thing about Deus.

maybe it has nothing to do but i wanna say that neo chooses to give up because there are too many smiths and he won´t be able to fight against all of them... also neo is positive and smith is negative in the matrix (well sort of..) and what happens when negative "eats" positive...the positive stands while negative is "eaten" by the positive side
so once smith overpowers neo he gets deleted because of this...that´s all...if i forget something i´ll post it later...

Besides the deus is not the solution because it does not do anything but to plug neo into the matrix to fight smith...

Face it: Neo is the solution! [/quote]

I am a newbie to this site and dont pretend to know all the ends and outs of the matrix movies; however, i have watched tham many times and have been brought to them time and time again by the appropriate connections and allusions made. I am theatre studnet doing research on the Deus ex machina when i came across this discussion, and thought i could shed some new light.

1) What the Deus ex was in Greek theatre?
not Exactly sure where the idea of having a sun put around the deus ex came from because the deus ex was usually disguised and hidden. Maybe you are confusing this with the ttop of the scene but i would be willing to concede this point if shown other informaiton. But the heart of the matter was that the deus ex was to the greeks what the Cavalry was to John wayne. This point has been allouded too. Because the Greek's had such a belief in the gods desire affecting every day life of course they felt that every difficult trial couldnt be solved by mere mortals but by the gods, so in the greek tragedies they would rely on the gods to get them out of jams. So as far as the plot goes the deus ex in M3 is not really a plot saver because the plot was not "resolved" solely on his actions Neo had to not only fight Smith but it was also Neo's willingness to be "taken over" that was the bringer of peace. In his sacrifice peace is discovered. Granted that without the deus ex this would have been difficult, it still remains Neo's choice.

2. So why call it the Deus ex if it isnt a plot saver?
Because the Deus ex machina was a large contrabtion that came from the sky to impart wisdom and knowledge at the climax of the play and this is exactly wah the deus ex in M3 does. It isnt just a play on the "god from machine" as in god comes from machines that is too modern of a thought and the greek's would not have been abreast to that thought the makers of the matrix could have had this misinterpretation as bachsoffice did(no offense). But what is more likely is that from a machine(the very ones sent to destroy) came their god, in order to resolve the problem in their own world let alone Neo's/ours.

just some thoughts.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Anyway, do you know this guy max314? I think we should recruit him for Matrix-Explained! He has posted quite a few good ideas there. I am sure he will be well appreciated here.

LOL!

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Anyway, do you know this guy max314?

Uh...hi?

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I think we should recruit him for Matrix-Explained! He has posted quite a few good ideas there. I am sure he will be well appreciated here.

Flattered, of course. But I don't want to intrude.

Apocryphe wrote:

Ok, let's assume that Deus Ex was not there... did you feel like Neo was going to win ? Neo was just a bait, so he alone didn't solve anything. Without Deus Ex, Neo would be now leading an army of Smith into the machine city and proudly wearing Smith's costume. Nah, Deux Ex solved the problem at the end, I don't know how u can see any other conclusion.

Firstly, I just want you to know that the analogy I made there was just a piece of subtextual cleverness I thought that the Wachowskis had put in there.

Secondly, you must realise that the Deus Ex and Neo defeat Smith together. Neo provides the connection to Smith, Deus Ex provides the purging energy.

"All must work as One. If one fails, all fail." -- The Keymaker

Together, Neo and the Machine God form the Deus Ex Machina.

What I posited in that thread, though, was just a concept that people might like to entertain. I mean, Neo 'descends' relative to the Machine God as it 'rises', and then presents the solution to him. So it's something to think about.

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"All must work as One. If one fails, all fail." -- The Keymaker Together, Neo and the Machine God form the Deus Ex Machina.

This is the point I was going to make... that neither Neo or Deus could defeat Smith alone, and therefore an argument about who was the major party in his defeat is pointless.

But I should also point out, as someone who has studied Greek and Latin for some years, that in a classical, original sense, there is no 'Deus Ex Machina' in the Matrix. The name for the character, the machine God, is probably just a reference to the direct English translation.

We've already established what a true, Greek play 'Deus Ex Machina' is, and so let me apply that to the Matrix. In the plays, the DEM would (actually, usually be lowered from underneath the stage) be brought into the play at the last moment to solve the problem. The DEM would not previously have been involved in the play.

Therefore, a true DEM in the Matrix movie would have been if benevolent aliens came down and rescued the humans from the machines and Smith and everyone lived happily ever after.

Neither 'Deus' (the actual AI) or Neo are a true DEM, the character Deus is simply named so because of the English translation "God of Machine" (as the Latin 'ex' is interchangeable for "From" or "Of").

DEMs are almost never used in modern storytelling because modern audiences feel a profound sense of betrayal if the story is resolved by a convenient third party, not by the actions of the protaganists. In Greek times, such a third party was acceptable, thanks to a strong belief that the Gods actually took part in the lives of mortals on a daily basis.

So.. there is no DEM.

Edit: Originally I had "Deus Ex Machina" as being a Greek Term. It's Latin.

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We've already established what a true, Greek play 'Deus Ex Machina' is, and so let me apply that to the Matrix. In the plays, the DEM would (actually, usually be lowered from underneath the stage) be brought into the play at the last moment to solve the problem. The DEM would not previously have been involved in the play. Therefore, a true DEM in the Matrix movie would have been if benevolent aliens came down and rescued the humans from the machines and Smith and everyone lived happily ever after. Neither 'Deus' (the actual AI) or Neo are a true DEM, the character Deus is simply named so because of the English translation "God of Machine" (as the Latin 'ex' is interchangeable for "From" or "Of"). DEMs are almost never used in modern storytelling because modern audiences feel a profound sense of betrayal if the story is resolved by a convenient third party, not by the actions of the protaganists. In Greek times, such a third party was acceptable, thanks to a strong belief that the Gods actually took part in the lives of mortals on a daily basis. So.. there is no DEM. Edit: Originally I had "Deus Ex Machina" as being a Greek Term. It's Latin.

This is probably the biggest self-contradiction I've seen in quite awhile. You give us your exposure to the term and then state your disagreement to the way its used after you proved that the way it's used is correct.

Well... what I'm saying isnt a contradiction, you just haven't quite grasped it. What I'm saying is that there is a slight, but nevertheless important difference between the storytelling device used by Greeks, and the resolution to the matrix.

What I'm saying is that in a classical sense, there is no DEM in the Matrix. Let me clarify:

In the original Greek plays, the DEM was a God who had no previous involvement in the play and was unrelated to any of the other characters. This God would, with a sweep of his/her hand, resolve the complications of the play. What I'm emphasising is the fact that the God has nothing to do with the play, and is basically an author's cop out. It's a classic "I woke up and it was all a dream" scenario.

This is not the case in the Matrix. There is no new, unrelated character introduced in Revolutions. Sure, we haven't seen the machine AI, but he/she/it's been there all along. Secondly, the resolution to the story of the matrix is not a result of a convenient third party, it's through the combined efforts of Neo (in an epic battle with Smith) and the machine AI. So, the protaganists prevail, through their own hard work and sacrifice.

There is no Deus Ex Machina in the resolution of the matrix - it is simply a name (a pun, if you will) that the Brothers would have liked, and used to name the Machine AI. The argument is a moot point.

Alright.

Welcome to the forums anyway

Fatpie42 wrote:

Before I type anything, I want it recognised that NONE of this is my idea. I just happen to agree with it. I have made this more worthy than a link by writing it in my own words. If you wish to see the original I have put a link at the end. On another forum they noticed the following: A Deus Ex Machina was orginally found in Greek plays. It would be lowered onto the stage and resolve all the problems. The interesting thing about the matrix revolutions is that the Deus Ex Machina does none of this. To start with, rather than lowering itself to Neo's level, the Deus Ex Machina RISES to Neo's level. Secondly it is not the Deus Ex Machina which solves the problem, it is Neo. Neo is then attached to various plugs and 'lowered' into the matrix to solve the problem. "You cannot stop him, ... but I can" The Deus Ex Machina which you would expect to resolve the problems proves incapable and a human, Neo, ends up replacing it as the real Deus Ex Machina. Thus God is replaced with human autonomy. Cool eh?

Upon a fresh reading of Fatpie42 original post, with no preconceptions, I believe it is worthy of reiterating. And as always with continual finding/refreshing of information, truth is revealed and consistent in the detail.

To further strengthen the issue, the collective presence of the machine (face etc) is not only in resistance towards Neo, but asks ”what do you want.” This all further supports both the mastery of Neo and the manifestation of His Anomalous attribute over the Machine.