»NEO IS ALIVE! AND NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE LIGHT THING!«

(This is not my original mssg but i believe in it completely it fit perfectly)

This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MWAM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

This means that the people take control over the Matrix and since they cant live in the real world, they just stay in the Matrix. It all makes sense!

Except for one thing.
Neo does NOT make any phone calls at the end of Revolutions.

Would have been a great plot twist, though.

Quote:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

This cant be used as evidence because neo's hair in the matrix is just an avatar, the residual self image. He can change the length of his hair at will after all he is the 'one'. He may have just thought "humm, I feel like having short hair" Although, I do not contest that 'The Matrix' occurs over only a few months of real time.
Apart from a few other flaws nice post , quite brave for a new poster. Welcome

Quote:

Good. Adaptation...improvisation

Apart from the fact that I believe the phone booth speech ("I'm going to show them a world without you") contradicts with Neo's enlightenment in the end of Revolutions, there is proof that this theory cannot be correct:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

Morpheus in M1: "Morpheus: You believe it's the year 1999 ..."
-> We can assume that Neo was freed by the Neb crew in 1999.

THADEUS (V.O): It is eighteen-oh-three on twelve-fourteen, and I fear this will be our last transmission." (ETM)
On December 14th, Thadeus makes his last transmission from the Osiris, which Niobe mentiones during the gathering of the captains in the beginning of Reloaded.

-> Reloaded cannot have taken place before December 1999. The phone call takes place in September 1999.

Quote:

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

in M1 Neo has just become the One. He has destroyed Smith, he can fly, he can look beyond the veil and see the code. Of course he is optimistic.

6 months later: "in the past 6 months, we have freed more minds than in 6 years". But apart from that, not much has changed. Neo is supposed to end this war, but he still has no idea how. He has realized that destroying a few agents, flying and seeing code is not enough. His task is much bigger than that (as we'll find out in the sequels).

Quote:

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now"

He says "I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change." inside the Matrix, while stopping the tracing program. He has lifted the veil of the virtuality of the Matrix and can look beyond it. As the One, he can sense program/system presence inside the Matrix, as we are demonstrated in the beginning of Reloaded:

Neo: Who was that?
Wurm: How did you know someone was here?
Corrupt: He gave you this. He said you set him free.
Wurm: Is everything alright sir?
Neo: The meeting is over, retreat to your exits. Agents are coming.
Corrupt: Agents?

Whereas - later in Reloaded - he says "Something's different (...) I can feel them" in the real world. That's two different states of consciousness. Between the end of M1 and the end of Relaoded he has grown his consciousness a lot.

"You're afraid of change"
Obviously, in the end of Revolutions the machine world no longer needs to be afraid of change through the One. It has changed.

Architect: You've played a very dangerous game.
Oracle: Change always is.

Just found this (abouit Matrix Online):

"The humans of Zion have been granted the opportunity to free people in the pods, provided they are ready to leave. But if too many people leave the pods, the Machines risk a power crisis; something that they may be forced to prevent. Added to this tense situation is the Merovingian; an Exiled program who wishes to preserve the Matrix for his own selfish reasons and will attempt to exert control wherever possible.

Players being powerful operatives in the Matrix will be recruited by each of the main sides. Perhaps they choose to remain loyal to Zion and attempt to free the rest of humanity. The machines, however, can make a compelling case that humans have historically been very untrustworthy. And of course, the Merovingian will remind you that in the Matrix, you can live like a god among men.

(...)

Essentially, you can think of MxO as the fourth Matrix movie. Neo has apparently sacrificed himself in order to secure a truce between man and machine. But it’s a very delicate situation.

In many ways, the Matrix is similar to the Cold War. The all-out fighting has stopped, but none of the sides trust each other. Some may even occasionally attempt to test the bounds of the truce.

The theme of the story for the first year is Peace, and the things people do to wreck it."

games-fusion.net...

could I be crazy enough in the thinking that somehow everyones choices in MxO could be the history that sets the stage for another movie... na...

-lawlen

Please also check this threads around the "end of M1 after M3"-theory:

»I can Feel you Now?«

The phone booth speech in the Matrix shooting script is very different in tone from what we hear Neo say in the movie. And there is a big gap between Neo becoming the One and this speech.
It is my guess that the "original" speech was intended to reflect some of the understanding Neo gains in the end of Revolutions. But, after showing the movie to test audiences, they realized that this might be a big hit and sequels might be more likely. So they changed the speech to make room for the sequels.

For those of you who don't know the speech in the final shooting script:

"Hi. It's me. I know you're out there. I can feel you now.
I imagine you can also feel me.
You won't have to search for me anymore. I'm done running. Done hiding. Whether I'm done fighting, I suppose, is up to you.

I believe deep down, we both want this world to change. I believe that the Matrix can remain our cage or it can become our chrysalis, that's what you helped me to understand. That to be truly free, truly free, you cannot change your cage. You have to change yourself.

When I used to look out at this world, all I could see was its edges, its boundaries,its rules and controls, its leaders and laws. But now, I see another world. A different world where all things are possible. A world of hope. Of peace.

I can't tell you how to get there, but I know if you can free your mind, you'll find the way."

I've always supported this theory. I like this idea very much, I don't know 100% if it's correct, and there's where the beauty of the Matrix Movies lies. I can see the trilogy ending this way, and everybody else can see it differently and neither of us is right or wrong. Welcome to the forum.

Oracle to Neo:

"You must go to the Source." " This is where the path of the One ends"

Someone said here in the forum said the Matrix was happeing between the year 1980 and 2000.
So, if Neo has been freed in 1999, it does not let a lot of time for all the events we see in the sequels (especially the "we freed more people in the last 6 months etc.").

So maybe that the scene with the phoneboot is happening just after the sunset... since the Oracle said that Neo would be back.
Didn't you notice that when Neo was flying in Matrix1, there was a blur (like hot air) in his trail but in the sequel we can't see it.

I presume some believe the quote

Quote:

"This is where the path of the One ends"

gives at hand that Neo does not exist anymore. But a path that ends does not necessarily mean existence ends. The path did end in the sense the Deus Ex Machina meant when he proclaimed "It is done", but that doesn't necessasrily mean that Neo doesn't exisit anymore.

Any thoughts?...

:MoppTop:
/z

... the Or said in ETM she knew everything till the end of this path - this cicle of the matrix. She could not say (I don't remember now if she was talking to ghost or niobe) what would happen afterwards - simply, because a new "revolution" was about to start...

In the "end", things turned to be "positive", the Or, Sati, Seraph and the Matrix still exist - this was the "end" of a previous cicle, a previous "version" of the Matrix and the previous relationship between machines and humans (war);

It may be said that, somehow, the old way "died" - but many things that were important from the "old way" (humans, Zion, the Or, Sati, Seraph, Morph...) still exist in this new revolution.

Everything that has a beginning has an end.

Everything that has an end has a new beginning...

zynxamek wrote:

The path did end in the sense the Deus Ex Machina meant when he proclaimed "It is done", but that doesn't necessasrily mean that Neo doesn't exisit anymore. Any thoughts?... :MoppTop: /z

I agree... when a program has no purpose anymore, it can be deleted or hide in the Matrix. But since Neo has negociated peace, now any program can get out, wich includes Neo himself.
The movie gives us several hints that Neo is still alive:

1) the oracle said that he would be back
2) the lyrics say that the One will go from death to immortality
3) the Architect said that the One should pick 24 people from the Matrix AFTER the reload, wich implies that the One survive the reload.
4) Neo shines like a sun when the machine transport him.

On the other hand, there is no hint that Neo is dead except his immobile body, but he was immobile too when he collapsed after stopping the sentinels.

I have no idea if neo is dead or not , I might be nuts, but in the end of rev when we see the sun is there something flying around. If you zoom in as much as possible at the sun and play it in slow motion it looks like someone flying around, it could be neo or whatever I don't know, could someone please check to see if I am crazy.

Neo is dead.
His role was to stop the war, not to destroy the matrix and not to free his people. Just to stop the war.

He fulfilled his mission. He is done... There is no more need for him...

That's exactly right.

The only thing I believe that survives is his mind.

What makes you think his mind survived? He died in real life, he died in the matrix, so where is he still alive?

I think whether or not he lives on in a new form depends on interpretation. But I don't think it is ever fair to say that his mind lives on. Perhaps it would be fair to say his 'soul' or 'spirit' lives on though?
(It seems to me that most religions do not believe that our minds continue exactly as they were when we die/reach enlightenment/transcend reality/etc. etc.
If you are looking at a Christian perspective, for example, read Ecclesiastes 9:10)

That's what I believe that his mind survives and is stored by the machines to counter another Smith from happeneing.

Gold code, representing spirit, is shown all around and from Neo when he is being carted off by the machines. So his spirit is still influential. And with the Oracle saying that she suspects to see him again one day it adds more to my belief.

YEs he is Neo is actually residing in a similar place to the train station it was created by 2 rogue programs that go by the name of 3lviz and 2paczofcoorz this place was created for programs to fake their own death but in this place sati is actually sold into marriage by her father and mother in return for some chickens cows and killer monkeys that steal your food and money Hence the matrix is complete..

Neo is never returning to the world of the Matrix. To that world, he is dead. Why, because of the imagery used in the movie. It is very similar to Tolkiens characters “Going West” to the island of Amman. Mortals, and even saviors, can never return from there. That concept is adapted from the Nordic idea of Valhalla. There, warriors are waiting for the end of the world and then they will return. But that is dependent on the will of “G-D.” Another Nordic tradition has the dead placed in a boat which is then set on fire. I think this was only done for important people. If you recall, when Neo was being taken away by the machines, the craft he was on had some similarity to a boat. There were no wheels and is had something that looked like a sail.
Neo is dead to the World of the Matrix. As for there being an afterlife, that is up to you to decide.

P.S. The Nordic myths also have the sacrifice of an eye to gain knowledge. That is a common element among many mythologies and a topic for another thread.

After watching the trilogy for maybe the 20th time I've come to the conclusion that Neo is dead. In Reloaded after the Burly Brawl Neo said what Smith was doing to him made Neo feel like he was back in the hallway. He said, "It felt like dying". So in Revolutions Smith does the same thing he tried to do to Neo before the Burly Brawl and to Morpheus in the hallway full of doors. It took a long time for me to draw this conclusion but Neo's dead.

Here's my angle --

Neo goes through all this, eventually potentially sacrificing his life to save the real people and the machines(which does not go unnoticed by the AI/machine GOD). In order to have a truce, you have to have a sence of equality from both sides( i.e. I've met my match. It will be equally damaging to me to procede with the offensive). If Neo is dead then the truce is unbalanced, and will not last long at all. In the time it would take to season a new "One", the AI could sack Zion 20 times. So Neo has to be alive, because who is going to defend the humans (pod-puppies or the zionites in the periodic testing of this truce.

Remember - Smith is the other part of the equation trying to balance itself out...
As soon as Neo or another One is back, Smith or his analog will be out there trying to balance things out...


And again, the only reason there is a truce is because of Smith, not Neo...

omega wrote:

Remember - Smith is the other part of the equation trying to balance itself out... As soon as Neo or another One is back, Smith or his analog will be out there trying to balance things out... And again, the only reason there is a truce is because of Smith, not Neo...

Hm...
I'm gonna have to think about this one...


Smith represents the instiatable, unstoppable. greedy nature of mankind.The viral, if you will. So Smith necessitated the truce, but Neo facilitated it. Neo gave his life to cancel out Smith equally.
Hmmm... Ithink I follow you, but I'm still not convinced. With Neo out of the picture, allthe source has to do is send more squiddies. Zion was as good as fallen and everyone knew it on both sides.
To have a truce you have to have some leverage, some bargaining power. So with Neo out of the picture, and the humans sorely out-gunned, the only leverage that I can think of is Sati and the oracle on the inside. This would mean that the AI could attack again, but if it did, Sati and the oracle would have 'em by the balls because they're on the inside. And although I don't completely understand Sati's role yet, If she can bring out the sun for the first time in a few thousand years, she could certainly threaten the machine world with drastically less power by waking all the pod-puppies.

Where's that take ya Omega?