»Why the anomaly hasn't been solved.«

Many people think that the Matrix recieved ultimate and final balance when Neo and Smith merged and Deus Ex Machina destroyed them. Thus they also think that the anomaly in the Matrix has been solved and the One will not return.

I refute this. First of all, we have learned that the system cannot work without the anomaly. No anomaly means that the humans no longer have a choice whether to accept the Matrix or not. The system works only on choice. So the anomaly will re-emerge.

Second, at the end of Revolutions, the humans still have a choice whether to accept the Matrix or not. This choice leads to the unbalance in the equations of the Matrix and that leads to the systemic anomaly. Ergo, the anomaly will return.

Nothing in the movies suggest that Neo and Smith together achieved ultimate balance for the system. The new sense of balance in the new version of the Matrix is of a spiritual nature. It is different this time because the machines and the humans have a chance for peace for the future. This is the type of balance the Oracle strived to achieve. Not systemic balance. Infact, I think if that would be the case, it would negate one of the main rules and the main lessons of the Matrix which we apply to our world: Stability is created by continual acts of balancing and unbalancing. This is true in the Matrix and in our world.

So, in conclusion, the anomaly will remain and the One will re-emerge in the next version of the Matrix. He too will have to return his code to the Source. But he might not be forced or compelled to do so like the other Ones were.

I agree

Zion will always be striving for the system of control (Matrix) to be broken down/destroyed... As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free -Morpheus

The Orcale wants all of the war to end between the two species, peace to reign and greater meaning and purpose to life discovered.

The two species have a history together that’s bound to bring up a lot of issues. Ultimately humans are responsible for the degeneration and aberration, i.e. the Matrix.

There is a lot of work to undo.

To own the truth is the only way to recovery.


The first question that all need to ask is... What is the Matrix? - to wake up

The next discovery is to found out why. Why is there a Matrix?

Its one thing to find out your in a ditch, its another to discover why.



The journey is to 'know thyself' and discover why oneself is the way one is.

To understand the Why is our only hope our only Peace.

The Oracle along with Zion will always be stirring it up, hopefully.

Inevitability wrote:

As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free -Morpheus

"I believe that the Matrix can remain our cage or it can become our chrysalis (...) to be free, truly free, you cannot change your cage, you have to change yourself." - Neo in the Matrix shooting script

What is a chrysalis? It is a pupa, a protected stage of development -> the larvae develops, changes itself, transforms into a butterfly, a winged, beautiful creature.

...agreed - the Matrix it's as a revelation...

From numbness to feeling... from there to recognition, then to fight against the oppression untill we find out the oppression will never take away from us our freedom - we're allways free to choose - and nothing may bind the source of life (and we're linked to that as well - we have a gate to it in the middle of our chest...);

By the way Toyz - what does your quote sentence (the numbers) mean?

lusiada wrote:

By the way Toyz - what does your quote sentence (the numbers) mean?

I have no idea! It's not my doing; it's the... system....

Edit:
it just changed with this post.

thousand apologies since my comment kind of not appropriate in this thread but...if one believe in god, doesnt it make that one's world kinda like the matrix...does one have a choice or is it pre-ordained?

Goedel tells us that every system has an anomaly, a G. To avoid a system crash caused by this G, it has to be incorporated into the system, it must be made a part of the system. That is what happened in the end of Revolutions (as opposed to the return of the prior Ones to the source, since in doing so they were victim to causality).
But you have then created a new system that will evolve it’s own G. Since the old G has become a part of the system, this will be a new G, another problem, so to say.

The old G was human choice. The machines understood that mankind needed to be given a choice. So,... people's minds were allowed to reject the Matrix, but only on a subconscious level. Except for those few that were freed by the rebels, they were not allowed to live up to this choice, to escape the Matrix. For the majority, it was only a theoretical choice.
Like Neo, who ("you may have spent the last few years looking for me" and “You've felt it your entire life”) had been living inside the Matrix for years, rejecting it, but unable to escape it, so did most of the 1% rejecting it -> an unbalanced equation.

And these people, “while a minority if unchecked would constitute an escalading probability of disaster”. They were stuck inside the Matrix and their number was growing, increasingly flawing the system.
If you want to explain it in untechnical terms, I think you could say that these people are like moths, gnawing little holes into the veil pulled over peoples eyes to prevent them from seeing beyond their virtual environment. The more moths there are, the more eaten the veil becomes, until eventually those with the strongest minds can look through the holes.
I think this is the background for the emergence of the One -> "Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix",.... and it is the background for the self-substantiation of the kid and Dan Davis in World Record. I think, all three could not have happened shortly after a reload.

So when the Architect say: “Obviously they will be freed” we know that these “moths” will be set free and will no longer gnaw at the veil.

Choice is no longer the problem of the Matrix,…and it is no longer a problem of the machine world, which – with the purposeless program Sati – had evolved it’s own G.

Quote:

Nothing in the movies suggest that Neo and Smith together achieved ultimate balance for the system (...) Infact, I think if that would be the case, it would negate one of the main rules and the main lessons of the Matrix which we apply to our world: Stability is created by continual acts of balancing and unbalancing. This is true in the Matrix and in our world.

I agree with that.

From taoism.net...:
"One of the most important insights of the Taoists was the realization that transformation and change are essential features of nature (...) The Taoists saw all changes in nature as manifestations of the dynamic interplay between the polar opposites yin and yang, and thus they came to believe that any pair of opposites constitutes a polar relationship where each of the two poles is dynamically linked to the other. For the Western mind, this idea of the implicit unity of all opposites is extremely difficult to accept. It seems most paradoxical to us that experiences and values which we had always believed to be contrary should be, after all, aspects of the same thing. In the East, however, it has always been considered as essential for attaining enlightenment to go 'beyond earthly opposites...." -> Neo: "You were right, Smith. You were always right. It was inevitable"

Neo has integrated choice into the source -> the world has canged. Now it will move on to the next step of evolution through the process of unbalancing - balancing.

The highest goal of all eastern philosophies is to realize the one-ness of the universe; to transcend the isolated and individual ego and identify with the ultimate reality. This realisation - enlightenment - is not an intellectual process, it cannot be taught. It has to be experienced by the person as a whole.
Neo has found enlightenment, but only for himself, not for mankind. Everybody has to walk this path for himself. But life has to be given this chance. And that's what Neo and the Oracle did.

The majority of man and machine will go on fighting cages rather than finding freedom from within, through understanding.
I think this fact will evolve other,... new anomalies. And that is why the Oracle suspects that he will return. To give man and machine another chance.

Your technical explanations and understanding of the system (and Godel) are very good.

But it seems like you are agreeing with me. By `obviously they will be freed', the Architect is confirming that the Ones that want out of the Matrix will be freed. This is human choice. This is the unstabilizing factor in the equations of the Matrix. It is this factor, which leads to the systemic anomaly.

So if you agree that the humans still have a choice, then you are agreeing that the anomaly will return. Am I correct?

Akshat Gupta wrote:

But it seems like you are agreeing with me. By `obviously they will be freed', the Architect is confirming that the Ones that want out of the Matrix will be freed. This is human choice. This is the unstabilizing factor in the equations of the Matrix. It is this factor, which leads to the systemic anomaly. So if you agree that the humans still have a choice, then you are agreeing that the anomaly will return. Am I correct?

I think the unstabilizing factor in the equation of the matrix were the people who chose to reject their virtual life, but were stuck inside. This pile up of disobedience against the system within the system was what lead to the emergence of the One.
_____________

I accept my virtual life = I live peacefully inside he Matrix <-balanced

I reject my virtual life = I live peacefully inside the Matrix ?<- unbalanced
this equation multiplied by 1% of "billions of people" -Smith in M1 <-emergence of the One

I reject my virtual life = I leave the Matrix <- balanced
______________

Now that they have a REAL choice, instead of only a theoretical, the equation has been stabilized.

I believe there will be another anomaly, but it will be evolved by another problem but choice.

Quote:

I reject my virtual life = I leave the Matrix <- balanced

This is what I dont agree with. The equations still not be balanced because there is a remainder left over; not everyone is accepting the program. It was desgined to conmpensate for eveyone. If this is not working out then it leads to a systemic unbalance. That escalates when the rebels from Zion hack into the Matrix and attempt to free more minds. Now I'm pretty sure this will still occur in the Matrix Online. If so, this is the escalating probability of disaster which leads the system to bring about the integral anomaly- The One.

Does anyone agree with me?

Akshat Gupta,
I believe the unbalancing factor was not the remainder itself, but the fact that the system couldn't deal with the remainder, it didn't understand choice in all it's consequence.
Now, that choice has been integrated into the system, has become a part of the system, the system has learned to deal with it (and it's consequences) by freeing those that reject it.

a person accepts it's virtual lif = keep it inside <- balanced
a person rejects it's virtual life = keep it inside <- unbalanced
a person rejects it's virtual life = remove it <- that's the logical and balancing consequence

To talk in Goedel:
the problem lies not within the anomaly, it lies within the system. The anomaly is just another rule. The problem is the fact that the anomaly is a rule WITHIN the system, but it is NOT a rule OF the system.
Once the anomaly has been integrated into the system, it has become a rule of the system and no longer is an anomaly.
-> to solve the problem, it is not the anomaly that has to change, it is the system.

The system will never be able to change mankind and it's essential need to have choice. But the system can evolve to meet this need. As it did evolve to meet it's own new generation's (->the purposeless (=choice) program Sati) need to have choice.


From the little I've read about Matrix Online, they won't fight over those that should be freed from the system.
It will be a fight between those that are aware of the system over the existence of the Matrix:
"Some people - called "Zionists" after the last human city, want to break the matrix and reclaim the real world. Others, seeing the devastation of reality, cast in their lot with the machines and fight to keep humanity in their virtual prison. Deciding which side to join will be one of the first decisions a player has to make." > archive.gamespy.com...

tozy, welcome to the Matrix-forum. I like your thoughts and the way you express them. Another valuable member; I hope you will stay for a long time

Akshat...
To my view there are three possibilities (the last one will be the most plausible)...

1. The TRUE anomalous code (Neo and Smith's code together), after being spread/washed through the entire Matrix, has been assigned to Sati. She now represents the variable of choice for BOTH the machines and humans. Thanks to her presence in the Matrix, the concept of choice is now a valid implementation.

2. After the spreading of the code at the end of M3, Neo lives on within the Matrix as a 100% pure program (nirvana-state of enlightment). Thanks to his presence in the Matrix, the concept of choice is now a valid implementation. As a guardian angel he will keep fighting for the freedom of BOTH the humans and the programs. He will not try to destroy the Matrix, he will try to enlighten people within the Matrix itself (like tozy stated above).
I base this point on the fact that the phone-call at the end of M1 is at the same location where the crater was; the place where Neo 'died'. Also, in the phone call you can somewhat interpret that he will go and enlighten people.

3. The TRUE anomalous code (Neo and Smith's code together) has been spread and incorparated into the Matrix. Like Jezus, Neo's light is now everywhere as the light of life (that's why you see the bright sun at the end of M3). The 'sins' (=choice to leave the Matrix) are 'forgiven' by Neo's sacrifize. The implementation of Neo's (and Smith's) code within the entire Matrix, makes it possible for all species to 'sin' (choose NOT to accept).

All three explanations are reasonable, but still speculative.
I tend to agree with tozy about another anomaly being caused in the future by another 'conflict', which will also be solved at a certain point, allowing the humans and the machines to grow again (circle of life).

Mobil_Ave_Neo,
thanks for the warm welcome!

Sorry for the late reply tozy.

I see now what you are trying to say. But what evidence do we have that suggests that the system has integrated choice so that there will not be a problem? What happened this time which did not happen in the previous reloads?

I dont even believe that is possible. According to what I have learned from the movies, the system (whatever it is) CANNOT (and will never be able to) integrate all parts of it into the larger picture. The system is too perfect and logical that it cannot support things such as human nature and choice very easily. This is Godel talk.

You believe that another anomaly will present itself because of Godel system rules. I think we can all agree on that. But I think the anomaly will still be caused by the same choice factor. I dont think the system can integrate it and make the equation balanced forever.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Sorry for the late reply tozy. I see now what you are trying to say. But what evidence do we have that suggests that the system has integrated choice so that there will not be a problem? What happened this time which did not happen in the previous reloads?

What's different this time is that the WHOLE anomaly returned to the Source. Neo returned and he 'forced' Smith to come with him.

Neo and Smith were mathematical values that represented a 'conflict', this 'conflict' got solved and was integrated into the Source/Matrix.

This implementation makes it possible for the entire system (both Matrix and machine-world) to allow 'anomalies', which are people AND programs that do not want to accept their 'rational' purpose.

With the other five Ones, the 'conflict' wasn't solved; the solvation was only delayed. The previous Ones only chose to save mankind, so there was no understanding, thus resulting into a new flaw.

Also, this time the One chose to return to the source, driven by his full understanding of the big picture, whereas the other Ones had returend to the source as still deluded victims of causality.

Akshat,
I agree with you that the system will never be balanced. That's the nature of the universe. And that's evolution.

I believe that, prior to Neo's sacrifice, the act of choosing was the unbalancing factor, the fact that there were people caught inside the Matrix, who struggled to wake up from their dream.
Now, that these people - once they start struggeling - will be freed(removed!), the act of choosing to reject the Matrix life will no longer be the unbalancing factor.

But, the fact that the act of choosing is no longer the anomaly, doesn't mean that the result of this choice couldn't evolve another anomaly.


Some more information about the future:

"The game is set after the third movie, and you'll be able to choose from three factions: Zion (humanity), the Machines, and the Merovingian
(...)
Neo saves the Matrix, although only at great personal cost. Though Morpheus is wrong about the prophecies, yes, his blind faith ironically is Zion's salvation. The Oracle survives; her plan triumphs. But, equally, her enemies multiply--the frustrated Merovingian and analytical Architect both entering into a new, unexpected world. The war is over, but can the peace survive?
(...)
In The Matrix Online, players quest against terrible Exile leaders--renegade programs within the city. Players mine for the information that drives the simulation of the Matrix--but often at great risk--because the Matrix is loath to release its secrets. They code new weapons, clothes, and even entire abilities by seaming together code fragments ripped from the simulation." gamespot.com...

tozy wrote:

Akshat, I agree with you that the system will never be balanced. That's the nature of the universe. And that's evolution.

The Universe IS balanced. Only there are different dimensions with different fluctuations. One dimension has more positive energy than negative energy or vice versa. This creates inbalance.

But as a whole, the Universe is balanced. Or at least that is my point of view.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Only there are different dimensions with different fluctuations. One dimension has more positive energy than negative energy or vice versa. This creates inbalance.

Yep, that's what I mean!

As for the universe as a whole,... I can't really say.
According to scienstists, our universe is growing. Would this qualify as "A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces" (dictionary.com)?

So I think we are all agreeing that the anomaly will return in some form or another. That is the important point because I dont think the universe can be forever balanced.

As for whether is still caused by choice or not....I dont know. You have lots of good points. I suppose it is possible that the system could integrate it but I still dont understand why. I'll just have to wait and see.

Quote:

I believe that, prior to Neo's sacrifice, the act of choosing was the unbalancing factor, the fact that there were people caught inside the Matrix, who struggled to wake up from their dream.

This makes things much clearer. But then again, if the remainder (Zionites) return to the Matrix (as they will in MxO) wont they interfere in the programming and lead to an escalating probability of disaster? Mobil, thoughts?

Also, what about the remainding RSIs of those who left, the change in lifestyle of those who are still inside after someone `disappears'? Maybe the system found a way to control those problems.

But I dont think the peace and spiritual balance achieved at the end of the movie had to necessarily mean that there would be peace and balance in the system as well. I thought they were mutually exclusive. I always thought that the systemic struggle would continue in the form of the One but the spiritual struggle has come to a rest.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

So I think we are all agreeing that the anomaly will return in some form or another. That is the important point because I dont think the universe can be forever balanced.

Well,... I agree with you about the universe, but could we agree on the prediction that an anomaly will evolve?

Quote:

But then again, if the remainder (Zionites) return to the Matrix (as they will in MxO) wont they interfere in the programming and lead to an escalating probability of disaster?

I am not at all a technical person, so please correct me if I am wrong, but... I believe there are different reasons for a system to head towards a crash:
the source can either be found within the system, or it can be ouside the system. The system can either stumble over it's own legs, or it can be tripped up.

As far as I understand G, it is an anomaly that is "born" inside the system. The system is flawed from within. That's what I meant by the moths eating the veil.
Whereas I believe a system being hacked from outside cannot be considered an anomaly.

Quote:

Also, what about the remainding RSIs of those who left, the change in lifestyle of those who are still inside after someone `disappears'? Maybe the system found a way to control those problems.

I think the kid in the Animatrix gives us a pretty good idea about that. There are so many unexpected and misterious deaths in our world....

Quote:

But I dont think the peace and spiritual balance achieved at the end of the movie had to necessarily mean that there would be peace and balance in the system as well. I thought they were mutually exclusive. I always thought that the systemic struggle would continue in the form of the One but the spiritual struggle has come to a rest.

As Goedel says, even if you integrate G into the system,...you have created a new system, that will evolve it's own - another! - G.

I don't believe that the systemic and the spiritual struggle were mutually exclusive. Both were spawned by mankinds oppressed need for freedom through choice.
Now that the world has been given peace and a system upgrade through Neo's spiritual balance, it has evolved. Neo and the Oracle have risen the world to a new level. But the world has not been given final balance. I believe a new systemic and spiritual struggle will evolve from this new level.

From what I've read about MxO the problem this time might not be individuals fighting for their kind, but for their own interest.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

This makes things much clearer. But then again, if the remainder (Zionites) return to the Matrix (as they will in MxO) wont they interfere in the programming and lead to an escalating probability of disaster? Mobil, thoughts?

There will be no disaster I think. The One is gone, so the Zionites won't have many power. They are allowed to visit the Matrix and free people that want (subconsiously at first) out. However, when the Zionites deploy illegal activities or are creating havoc among people that wish to (subconsiously or not) accept the Matrix, they will send in the agents.

I think that the exiles will be giving more problems. Programs are now allowed to choose exile, but they are not allowed to harm the Matrix. Evil and powerfull exiles (like the Twins for instance) will join the Merovingian and cause havoc among the Matrix.

Quote:

Also, what about the remainding RSIs of those who left, the change in lifestyle of those who are still inside after someone `disappears'? Maybe the system found a way to control those problems.

I see this both in a mathematical and a symbolical way.
Neo's (and in fact also Smith's) code is now incorperated into the Source/Matrix. This implemenation makes non-acceptence a valid value. The One was an 'illegal' value that has been emerged as a defect of mathematical harmony. Now that the One has been implemented into the system the right way, non-acceptance is now included in the mathematical harmony. There will be no remainder, because Neo accounted for this remainder by self-sacrifize. Just like Jezus died to wash away our sins for centuries to come, Neo's implementation will wash away the remainder.

Most of the (subconsious) non-accepters develop a life as a loner. If you feel that there is something wrong with the world, then you usually don't join the mass. So when they exit the Matrix, they will not be missed by many people. But I do think the Architect has alot of work to do. He has to bend variables and counter-act upon certain events.

Taking into account what I mentioned about the exiles above, I think the new 'anomaly' will emerge within the program-world/machine-world. Now that the conflict with the humans has been solved, there will be a new conflict among the machine-world between those that are pro-rational (like Archie) and those that are pro-irrational, which will eventually collide in a balanced bang again, bringing a valid mix between rational and irrational.

So we end the discussion with agreeing that another anomaly will definitely emerge- it is the nature of the system. But whether this anomaly is caused by the same choice factor or whether the choice factor has been integrated by the system and accepted as a rule is not certain yet.

This line best summarizes that-

Quote:

As Goedel says, even if you integrate G into the system,...you have created a new system, that will evolve it's own - another! - G.

The idea that the new anomaly will take place in the program/machine world is one I would very much like to see. It makes sense technically and also we need to see more about the AI looking into their inner human condition.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Second, at the end of Revolutions, the humans still have a choice whether to accept the Matrix or not. This choice leads to the unbalance in the equations of the Matrix and that leads to the systemic anomaly. Ergo, the anomaly will return.

It's the contrary : the anomaly comes when people are forbidden to have a choice (staying or leaving the Matrix). We see that very well in "record world", the man wants to get out but they try to keep him in. Wich leads to abnormal phenomenon.

As long as people are freed, the anomaly will not arise. Honnestly, that's one of the basic principle, if you didn't get that, you didn't get anything in the movie. Didn't you realize that the anomaly is a parable to explain how any revolution occure ?

Wow....you didn't get the whole point of the Architect's speech did you? Its amusing to see how sure of yourself you are.