»Kid and the Spoon... Has nobody realised WHY?«

The spoon. Think back on it. The Matrix. The First one. When Neo went to the Oracle? The kid outside the door?

Kid: "Don't try to bend it, 'cos that's impossible. Instead just try to realise the truth..."
Neo:"What's that?"
Kid: "... That there is no spoon."

Kid looks at the spoon and it bends. REMEMBER NOW?

* I just surfed in and not sure if anybody's posted this before. I read the article at the front page of this website and it's really, really good. Just thought I add a bit to it, you know?

Welcome Rosslyn,

Glad to hear your enjoying meanings from the Matrix

There are many

Hope you enjoy this forum!

What in the hell is this suppose to mean?

I don't expect a plausible answer, but it is always best to ask

And then there's the second spoon which the kid sends to Neo through the other kid, accompanied with the message: "He said you'll understand" just prior to Neo going to the Oracle the second time ! ! ! (taking quote from memory )

So what is that supposed to mean?


The first spoon was made of the matrix

The second spoon was made of "reality"

There is no objective matrix, and there is no objective "reality" either! At least for the one who knows how to bend himself. The only thing that's real, that really matters, that will change and bend anything, are the choices we make, choices based on bended perceptions, choices that will change both matrix and reality!

Could this be an important insight into the Path of the One ? !

/z

Yes Ros...I posted about the Kid and the spoon. I have a different take on that though (vs zynx)...since I am not convinced that Zion is real I think its a clue for Neo; to open his mind/power in Zion, for him to realize that there is "no spoon" in Zion too.

Ok. The kid probably had an easily bendable matrix spoon, but this goes back to my theories of the one. What is the one? Could Morphius have been wrong? Maybe the one is more than stopping bullets, that isn't explained. If Neo was the one, he became it, not "always was" which I said in the anti-one thread.

"every man and woman that stood their ground has died" that has something to do with the kung-fu training, etc. eventually both fighting run out of bullets, igues

Um, actually I was talking about something else here... I am thinking that the Kid acutally sent the spoon and said "He'll understand" because he's reminding Neo of "realising the truth", you know? Not about the spoon and how it bends in the Matrix. It is about the FACT that it bends. Get me now?

PS. Thanks for the warm welcome I didn't expect this many replies

Spoon boy: "Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."

-> "to be free, truly free, you cannot change your cage, you have to change yourself"

Even the real world is very much a matter of perception. I think it is no coincidence that Spoon boy had the apperance of an asian monk.

theson wrote:

"every man and woman that stood their ground has died" that has something to do with the kung-fu training, etc. eventually both fighting run out of bullets, igues

I think it's nothing to do with Kung Fu really, 'cos with the matrix everything is possible. It's something about the One... How Neo can suddenly stop sentinels or avoid bullets. I think this actually supports the Neo is a mchine theory, 'cos how else can he do what Agents does?

he doesn't do what the Agents do.. he does more than what the agents do simply because programs by definition are governed by rules, but as a human he is not restricted in the same way and can bend and break the rules in ways that the programs cannot.

Quote:

he doesn't do what the Agents do.. he does more than what the agents do simply because programs by definition are governed by rules, but as a human he is not restricted in the same way and can bend and break the rules in ways that the programs cannot.

Exactly. Morpheus even explains this to Neo in M1. "They can never be as fast or strong as you can be." Their discussion ends with this (from memory):
Neo: You telling me I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No. I'm telling you that, when you're ready, you wont have to.

Here's something curious, and my interpretation of it:

If you pause the frame in M1 where Spoon Boy is sitting with his, er, handiwork, you will see 6 spoons. Five of them are mangled, and on the floor. From Spoon Boy's perspective, left to right, he picks up and holds the sixth, which bends and then returns to normal. Then he hands it to Neo.

The five spoons on the floor symbolize the five 'Ones' before Neo, all of whom we can assume chose the door to the source and later died. When Spoon Boy picks up the last spoon, it bends and returns to normal. This symbolizes Neo, who is able finally to perform his true task as the One. The sixth One is not yet dead, and will not die in the way the other five did - in fact, he will return to life, like the spoon returned to normal. Spoon Boy then hands the spoon to Neo, symbolizing that Neo needs to understand himself. Neo does in fact bend the spoon, just for a moment, but he is not ready at this point to know that 'there is no spoon.'

(Aside: The early scripts for M1 incorporated the '5 before Neo' idea within the picture as Morpheus 'finding the One' 5 times, each one dying, before he found Neo. This scene's symbolism might be a vestige of that, but it seems that the idea of '5 before Neo' was important enough to the filmmakers not only to include the idea in the sequel, but to elevate it to an even higher status in the story, making each One reload the matrix! This points to this scene's symbolism being very important, even without the '5 before Neo' being explicit in M1.)

In M2, many interpretations abound for the Spoon Delivery. It could be that Spoon Boy was just saying 'Look, Neo, I got out.' Or, maybe Spoon Boy was telling Neo, 'Look, here in Zion, there IS a spoon!' I think Rosslyn's got it right, though.... I think that Spoon Boy is giving Neo a bit of encouragement that only Neo and Spoon Boy (and we, the audience) would understand. It is probably significant that it's Kid who delivers the spoon, but I won't get into that just now.

i've noticed the other spoons before, but i had never thought of that.. i like it.. good work!

"...you are going to see tthe Oracle...", The kid asked Neo. I think it is significant that the spoon handed to Neo at that particular moment. One, it prevented Bane/Smith from killing Neo, and two; coz Neo was on his way to see the Oracle. Why wasnt the spoon given to Neo earlier?

Isn't it cause Zion is another Matrix?

But the Matrix is real! If a program like Oracle, Merv and Rama make their own choices...so should the human rite?

Ya I didn't realize how many posts I have. Damn, I've been here a long time.

As for your question....sorry I didn't really understand. Could you explain once more?

annaerullo wrote:

Here's something curious, and my interpretation of it: If you pause the frame in M1 where Spoon Boy is sitting with his, er, handiwork, you will see 6 spoons. Five of them are mangled, and on the floor. From Spoon Boy's perspective, left to right, he picks up and holds the sixth, which bends and then returns to normal. Then he hands it to Neo. The five spoons on the floor symbolize the five 'Ones' before Neo, all of whom we can assume chose the door to the source and later died. When Spoon Boy picks up the last spoon, it bends and returns to normal. This symbolizes Neo, who is able finally to perform his true task as the One. The sixth One is not yet dead, and will not die in the way the other five did - in fact, he will return to life, like the spoon returned to normal. Spoon Boy then hands the spoon to Neo, symbolizing that Neo needs to understand himself. Neo does in fact bend the spoon, just for a moment, but he is not ready at this point to know that 'there is no spoon.'

That is actually a VERY GOOD POINT! I've never noticed that before. Thanks!

i have two possible interpreatations of all this:

either kid sent to spoon so neo would remember their conversation and realise that 'there is no spoon here' either... ie that zion is another matrix. but then how would spoon kid know this?


or

it shows that the only way the spoon could be bent in zion is by physically grabbing it and bending it. - ie that zion IS real..


oh dear.. two conflicting arguments... have fun!

What I was trying to say AG...is that I agree with Cypher...I now accept the Matrix as 'real'.

Oh, ok. I got it. Good for you, lol.

Hey! Could this be something?

It was the Kid who gave the spoon to Neo, right? The Kid who escaped the Matrix (shown in Animatrix) through "self-substantiation", without the red pill! Trinity commented: "I didn't know it was possible". Neo answered something like, "Apparently, it is."

In the Matrix the Kid falls from the top of the school building and then has his funeral and all. But then (in another existence) the Kid awakes, presumably in a hovercraft, and asks, "Am I dead?". And Neo answers something like, "Quite the opposite".

Is the spoon-boy trying to tell Neo that he is to do a kind of self-substantiation by sending the spoon with the Kid? You know, Neo died; many of us are trying to denying this fact, trying to convince each other that he is somehow alive. But if Neo did a kind of self-substantiantion at the end of M3, he could technically be dead (just like the Kid in Animatrix) but could still awake in another existence. The Kid woke up in the real world, but Neo wakes up ... where?... in some kind of transcendental existence?

"There is no spoon"

hhm....

There is no reality which I cannot bend myself around?



(This doesn't neccesarily need to lead to a matrix in a matrix theory, but it does play with the idea that "reality" is another kind of matrix, which is of coarse what S & S is all about. "What is real? How do you define "real"? ")

Good post, Very interesting.
I believe that reality is totally open to interpretation and that if you believe you can do something, you can do it. Remember reality is only electrical signals interpreted by your brain, so if you choose to interpret them in a different way, you should change reality, according to logic. Just like the way you change a whole equation by changing one of the parts of it.
I also believe that if you are in an accident you will survive if you believe it.
Mind over matter.
It may appear to others that you have died if they think that you would not survive it.
I think that new alternate realities are created at every choice or chance you encounter, what you believe decides what path you take and which alternate reality you will live in.
I like what you are saying as it backs up my own philosophical theory on reality (you may or may not believe this).
I also liked how you did not say Neo awakes from another artificial reality, but on another plane of existence.
I think it is choice that makes this happen. Notice how confident neo is at the end of revolutions, maybe he knows about the nature of reality and can choose to make his own after he has departed the reality in the films.
I guess this will appear loopy (for want of a better word), but try to keep an open mind.

Thx for your confirming comments Yaldaboath!

Yes, if you pound upon the question of reality and our senses it's not really that hard to comprehend the Kantian position that the real reality is not contained in our sensations. What is really real (the things-themselves) is a harder question though because we only have our senses to reason with. Could Neo sense the things-themselves? Maybe this is where "seeing beyond time" comes in place, "the eyes of the Oracle".

Seeing beyond time is another phenomena that unites the Kid and Neo. The Kid dreamed of falling down from the building (his death and escape from the Matrix) beforehand, just like Neo dreaming how Trinity fell down the building.

But maybe "seeing beyond time" has also to do with seeing beyond cause and effect since (philosophically and even scientifically) time can be defined by the flow of reality formed by a cause and effect chain reaction. Remember the Merv's explaination of this? The Merv knows and controls totally the cause and effect reality of things, but he wants more, he wants to control beyond that: the Eyes that see beyond cause and effect, that see beyond time...

I'm beginning to lean towards that the "eyes of the Oracle" isn't something exclusively specific of the Oracle, other than that she is the one most conscious of it and sampled and distilled it through human anomalies. Compare what the Oracle says in ETM:

Quote:

The Oracle: It is now I who needs your help. Time has grown so short. The shadow has already begun to spread. Seraph: Does the One know ? The Oracle: No, not yet. Seraph: Will he succeed ? The Oracle: There are so many factors. Between here and there, there are so many choices, and so much fear. The truth is, that the path of the One is made by the many. Each of us has our own steps to take. Our own choices to make. And if but one fails, all fail.

The Kid and the Spoon-boy did their part: even though it seems inessential, it was actually most essential in order for the One to succeed, which the Spoon-boy knew; from M2:

Quote:

Morpheus: We don't have time. Kid: I'm sorry, sir, I just have to give something to Neo. A gift from one of the orphans. [speaking to Neo] He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand.

/z