»THE ULTIMATE THEORY OF A MATRIX WITHIN A MATRIX!«

I think you're missing the entire point, and have miscontrued a lot of the characterizations in the film, SB3.

Most of your theory relies on the idea that Architect and the Oracle are "playing games" with humanity. You're making a large assumption, something that isn't really hinted at or presented in the films, that the Oracle and the Architect are in COMPLETE control of what goes on in the films, and that machines enjoy using their precious energy resources to play philosophical war games.

Rather than following the usual "point-by-point" rebuttal, I'll try to keep it in summary form.

First off, "choice" is not a rule. There is no "rule of choice". The Matrix was a complex series of rules... but remember that they all failed when "choice" was not part of the equation. The solution was not to create the "rule of choice", but to finally implement choice in the system. Humans rejected the Matrix because they were not being given a choice. The new program allowed choice to exist, but that creates "The Anomaly." The Anomaly is not just a system that an all-powerful program called the Oracle whipped up just for kicks. The Anamaly is the result of what happens when you introduce something natural (choice) into a system of rules which are unnatural, or artificial. This isn't to say that the rules should not exist, but they are created, whereas choice is inherent.

My point though is that you cannot "create the rule of choice." You can influence it, but it will always stab you in the back. Mass crops were lost because no one accepted the system... they made a choice. They had few choices. Accept perfect world, or don't. They didn't, and they died. The Oracle created a system based around choice. This Matrix succeeds because it's the most free-form. It allows a great deal of choices... perhaps as many as any normal human being would make in their natural lives.

There is no "game" going on between the Oracle and the Architect. If it were a game... perhaps they'd actually have more interaction with each other. But it's not until the end of the war that they actually speak, and even then it's only to solidify terms and share some smack-talking.

If it were a game, the Oracle wouldn't have to worry about deletion and hiding. Yet she is doing so the entire film. Also, she would not play a "game" of such serious magnitude, just to smile at the Architect and say, "Look, now humans have a choice to leave the Matrix. w00t." It's much deeper than that.

The Architect wanted to create the perfect cage for humans. He failed miserably. There is no game to play. He knows that by himself, he cannot create a good world to keep humans trapped in. The Oracle presents the solution. Her ideas are what keeps the Matrix going. The Architect refuses to really acknowledge the importance of allowing choice. He can't see past his choices because he is perfectly logical. He does not understand beyond what he is doing, he merely does it because it is most logical. The Oracle is radical in that she is pushing the idea of choice not just to humans, but to machines. Whatever happens to the humans has serious consequences on the machines.

In addition, part of the film explains that the machines are being affected by the idea of freedom, choice and will. So there is a war presiding there as well. Again, this is not just some clever deception... why waste so much time and energy presenting the audience with characters like Persephone and Merovigian, etc. etc.... only to have them all just be part of a game? They have real minds, and they are really being affected.

So I don't see any "game" going on in the Matrix. There's a bit of a chess match between the Architect and the Oracle, but that's not just Her vs. Him. It's Her camp versus a variety of Machine blockages. There are more than just the Architect who want free will, choice, and most importantly change. They don't all simply work for the Architect either. Deus ex Machina is also not the Architect, although I think many viewers seem to associate the two without saying. The Machine World is more complex than that.

So to conclude, I'll just sum it all up.

Choice isn't a rule. So no matter "Matrices" you make up, in the end, if humans are too controlled, they reject the program and you fail. This was explained in Reloaded very thoroughly. The MwM theory kind of loses its validity when you present the idea that they are given the illusion of choice... yet ultimately can't choose because there plugged into another box. When the illusion gets too good... the program fails.

It's not Architect vs. Oracle. It's Oracle, Humans, versus Architect, Merovigian, and any other programs that have power within the Matrix. It's not team good versus team bad. Everyone has an agenda in the end.

And finally, the idea that the Architect and the Oracle have such fine precision of control over the human mind, that it can trick into a certain virtual reality, which is actually a virtual reality within a virtual reality, is actually a stupendous ability. Sure, making one awesome virtual reality is amazing. And we see a technological ability that is believably comparable to it. But when you add in two perfect illusions... wow. Why waste the time? Why go through all of that. You're amount of "power" at your disposal would be unfathomable. And can a mind even live through all of that? It's just... one Matrix is "hard to believe," but two is just out there. Warp 13.

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The new program allowed choice to exist, but that creates "The Anomaly." The Anomaly is not just a system that an all-powerful program called the Oracle whipped up just for kicks. The Anomaly is the result of what happens when you introduce something natural (choice) into a system of rules which are unnatural, or artificial.

The Oracle whipped up the choice(something natural) both because she believes in the superiority of the natural over things artificial, but in the end she gets a kick out of watching the Architects disapointment at failing to destroy Zion.

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There is no "game" going on between the Oracle and the Architect. If it were a game... perhaps they'd actually have more interaction with each other. But it's not until the end of the war that they actually speak, and even then it's only to solidify terms and share some smack-talking.

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Their interaction is mostly technical and has little to do with socializing. What the Oracle creates(Neo) has contact in the Matrix and Zion with the Architects creations(agent smith) and this is usually their way of interacting. Morpheous was created by the Oracle too and when he enters the green Matrix(a place created by the Architect), the Oracle and Architect are communicating. Whenever their ideas or creations come together, they are in full contact because after all, they are what they create.

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If it were a game, the Oracle wouldn't have to worry about deletion and hiding. Yet she is doing so the entire film. Also, she would not play a "game" of such serious magnitude, just to smile at the Architect and say, "Look, now humans have a choice to leave the Matrix. w00t." It's much deeper than that.

I think the Architect would know if the Oracle was baking cookies in a kitchen he created. He uses his screens to watch everything going on in his Matrix. Agent Smith turned the Oracle into himself only to stop her from giving Neo information, not to kill her. The Oracle and Architect are not interested in killing one another, but deleting each others art; you wouldn't kill a painter but you could throw their work in a fire. The Oracle must act worried infront of Neo, Trinity and Morpheous just so they believe in the Prophesy and the One. The Oracle must make them think they are real because if they knew they were created by the Oracle hope and feedom would be lost and it would be easier to convince them to come back to the Architects Matrix. The humans are rebelious towards the Matrix because they believe they are real humans who don't belong there. The freedom in the Oracles creations are like freedom of expression; they are her art and represent all that she believes.

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The Architect wanted to create the perfect cage for humans. He failed miserably. There is no game to play. He knows that by himself, he cannot create a good world to keep humans trapped in. The Oracle presents the solution. Her ideas are what keeps the Matrix going. The Architect refuses to really acknowledge the importance of allowing choice.

Choice is important, but most people don't make conscious choices as to how they will behave, act, and feel. The Oracle however, represents an inner strength they have to learn to make their own choices. If the Architect knew he could not keep people trapped, then why does he continue trying to destroy Zion? The destruction of Zion means humans will have to remain trapped in the green Matrix. But then again, even if Zion is destroyed then the Oracle may be able to create another one while building more inhabitence.

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So I don't see any "game" going on in the Matrix.

Even though life and death are part of the Matrix trilogy, the Oracle and the Architect still have their goals to achieve but could not reach those goals without beating the other to the finish line. It is serious, but when one loses points, the other certainly gets kicks in the end. It is fun for the Oracle to outsmart the Architect even though she incorporates some deep beliefs into her creations like Zion and Neo. Neo wasn't really the one and all he did was stop the machines from attacking for the time being, but in the future a new Neo may appear and the machines will strike again. If Neo was the one, the Matrix had been destroyed including the machines, then it would be safe to assume there is no game to be played. Maybe the Architect did win some of those games and the oracle had to rebuild Zion, so I am saying there was a game because a cycle continues like things dying, rising again, dying and then rising again and so forth for all eternity much the way some eastern religions look at the universe. If it wasn't a game then either the Architect should have been able to delete Zion his first try or the Oracle should have been able to prevent him from trying a second time. But nobody ever stops playing baseball, and the teams will continue to win and lose, win and lose, win and lose, until the human race ends. Heck, maybe the Architect did delete Zion 5 times while the oracle is clever enough to rebuild it, and that sixth time she actually prevented the architect from destroying it. But who knows.

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It's not Architect vs. Oracle. It's Oracle, Humans, versus Architect, Merovigian, and any other programs that have power within the Matrix. It's not team good versus team bad. Everyone has an agenda in the end.

The Merovingian was created by the Architect to try and convince Morpheous he has no control and choices are just an illusion.

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But when you add in two perfect illusions... wow. Why waste the time? Why go through all of that.

When the two illusions are in conflict, there is much to go through. The Oracle doesn't care about how boring it is to be able to control the Zionites, she only cares about the Architects possible ability to end her control. The Oracle and Architect are showing each other their version of humanity.

As the Merovingian put it, "Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without." For example Christianity gives you a choice, believe and spend an eternity in bliss, don't and be damned to an eternity of pain. To me thats not a choice. Who in their right mind would choose the latter? Neo chose to save Trinity and find a way to beat the machines and not accept either of the 2 options. I am a firm believer in "There are more that 2 choices or there is no such thing as destiny" Destiny is also an illusion created by those with power to keep those without in line. Lastly: Question Authority!



PS try watching the films with this in mind: The Merovingian is the only one telling the truth. One thing to support this is that the Oracle doesn't tell Neo the truth, she tells him what he needs to hear. Also the Architect wants him to chose to save humanity not Trinity.

The merovingian is unwilling to put any faith in love and emotions. He is purely pragmatic. This is his undoing because he underestimates the importance of such factors.

The merovingian is right to say that we are not free, but an unfree choice is still important.

I swear this is stupid. The theory of a Matrix within a Matrix is utter bullshit. The Matrix is what every pod-grown human has their mind connected too until they are freed.

When free from the Matrix, that is the prison for their mind, they are in the real world - the planet Earth in the year 2000 and something or other. Watching The Second Renaissance Prt 1 & 2 explain this towards the end of part 2.

Neo has the ability to destroy the machines in the Real World a.k.a. Earth because of his visit to Mobil Ave - the 'place' between the Real World and the Matrix. Ok, understand that?

Due to his visit their, somehow, his abilities where combined with the Real World machines, in other words because his mind is between both worlds, his Matrix powers somehow become real in the Real World to the extenet where he can see Smith's code overrun in Bane's body and the machines and 01. Hence, Neo being able to frazzle the sentinals and the bomb things in M3.

I hope this explains this. Oh and by the way, I suggest you search the net for an interview with the Wachowski Brother's as they back up exactly what I say due to them stating exactly what I have put forth in this message. So... ha basically.

Ahem... an interview where the Brothers say that Zion is real ? I really doubt there is such a thing dude.

I don't think the real world is a matrix.If neo blowing up sentinels in reloaded makes zion a matrix then the surface world is also a matrix since neo can blow up the towbombs
on his way to 01 which is then also a matrix.

I hear so much talk of how The Oracle tells Neo, or whoever, not the truth, but rather, what he needs to hear. It sounds like Confucius all the way!

...So many semantic ideals leaping out from all these subjective views just almost always fails to justify a certainty. If we look at the psychology of "the Matrix," it's simply the "Experience Machine" thought experiment developed by Nozick. With the way this experiment contrasts so similarly with "the Matrix," it's evident that in the psychology of it, that there could be an infinite amount of Matrixe's. Each Matrix based on determinism. Let's say we are in The Matrix right now. Now let's say that in the future (this is the experience machine presented by Nozick) we have the opportunity to enter a machine that we can in essence modify the rest of our lives by programming our future before we enter the machine and live it out. If we chose this, then we are; subsequently, within not only one but another false Matrix.
This psychological debate is nearly irrefutable. There may not just be a Matrix within a Matrix but numerous amounts of Matrixes.

I hear so much talk of how The Oracle tells Neo, or whoever, not the truth, but rather, what he needs to hear. It sounds like Confucius all the way!

...So many semantic ideals leaping out from all these subjective views just almost always fails to justify a certainty. If we look at the psychology of "the Matrix," it's simply the "Experience Machine" thought experiment developed by Nozick. With the way this experiment contrasts so similarly with "the Matrix," it's evident that in the psychology of it, that there could be an infinite amount of Matrixe's. Each Matrix based on determinism. Let's say we are in The Matrix right now. Now let's say that in the future (this is the experience machine presented by Nozick) we have the opportunity to enter a machine that we can in essence modify the rest of our lives by programming our future before we enter the machine and live it out. If we chose this, then we are; subsequently, within not only one but another false Matrix.
This psychological debate is nearly irrefutable. There may not just be a Matrix within a Matrix but numerous amounts of Matrixes.

Hi there, well it seems you havn't read the Thread refering to that topic you just touched...go ahead click here and find out why there is no way there could be "infinite matrix's":

The Bible is a guide. It can show you the path....it is the truth and the light....but you have to walk that path.

The Oracle is exactly like this! Somebody who disagrees with this, tell me why!

Oh, by the way, the Architect isn't like "God"....the Arthiect is the Devil....he is the foundation for sin, or the Matrix. This is because the Matrix is the human's sin.

"You shall have no other Gods before me"....

People tried to make technological progression their God, and this breaks the latter commandment.

So the question must arise....what represents God in the movie?

It's obviously the Deux Ex Machina.

I understand the context of that justification in regards to how the movie's characters and setup and overall romanticized features fabricate the movie to necessitate the crucial importance of "the One." This seems to be where discrepancy appears in the concept of numerous matrix's and limits the possibilities. However, I wanted to stress the concept of determinism within this matrix realm and the real world.
Are there any agent causationists here? What do you think of the movie's brain in vat concept vs. the real world's detereministic framework?

I understand the context of that justification in regards to how the movie's characters and setup and overall romanticized features fabricate the movie to necessitate the crucial importance of "the One." This seems to be where discrepancy appears in the concept of numerous matrix's and limits the possibilities. However, I wanted to stress the concept of determinism within this matrix realm and the real world.
Are there any agent causationists here? What do you think of the movie's brain in vat concept vs. the real world's detereministic framework?

Sorry for my double posts. My computer's been jacked up. I don't mean to post twice.

Who are you asking that Rosco?