»THE ULTIMATE THEORY OF A MATRIX WITHIN A MATRIX!«

Im new at writing threads but i hav been a forum surfer for quite some time now and i hav come 2 my own conclusion.... here goes....fill ne gaps if u wish and "constructive" critisism please!

The real world aka zion, is in fact another matrix, the only element of truth is that neo is the code. Everybody is connected to this first matrix and neo's brain is chosen to filter the matrix so that it can seem human and be beliveable to humans because the machines cannot comprehend such things. That is why he can bend the rules. The reason everybody is oblivious to this is because the mind cannot comprhend being freed twice.
Now before u start killin me wid replys, think about it for a while....why would the machines rely on choice to run the matrix, plus if u really look at it, it benifits both humans and machines: the machines get their energy and the humans live on.

BTW(tek it easy im jus 13 yrs old!)

Yes there is a possibility as I have said before. But there is nothing in the movie to suggest that Zion is another Matrix and it completely kills all the philosophical insight.

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why would the machines rely on choice to run the matrix

They have to choice but to run the Matrix on choice. Otherwise the humans will wake up. Its human behavior. Psychology has alot to do with the Matrix.

OK, don't take these criticisms too hard. There are a lot of good input and ideas from both camps which should be shared.

For example, comprehending being freed twice - yes, that's the real strength of Neo!

So, review my comments, and see if your arguments hold. If your arguments hold, then tell me why. Maybe we can do some constructive sharing!

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beliveable to humans because the machines cannot comprehend such things

Right, the machines cannot comprehend such things, but they really don't need to either, only the sensory signals. The human dimension is lived out by the humans themselves from inside their pods. The machines just set up the "theatrical scenery".

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The reason everybody is oblivious to this is because the mind cannot comprhend being freed twice.

Remember when Morph in M1 showed the real surface to Neo? Well, it is quite sure they weren't on the real surface of the earth, since they were still plugged in. So that means the surface of the earth was simulated. So the idea that Zion was a simulation couldn't have been such a far-fetched idea for the Zionists. They must have thought of this idea. They should have cracked that Matrix too, or atleast attempted it.

And if the Zion-matrix is so incredibly real, why set up a second Matrix.
(I'm not really sure if the matrix-matrix was really less real than the zion-matrix).

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Everybody is connected to this first matrix and neo's brain is chosen to filter the matrix so that it can seem human and be beliveable to humans ...

You mean all the signals in a matrix is filtered through a single brain? "Jesus, what a mind-job!"


waiting to hear from you
cheers
/z

wen i said they were all connected to neo i meant that they are connected to the matrix but the matrix uses neo's mind to make the world seem plausible and "humanlike" that is the "code", the architect refers to, the very thing that makes the matrix, an artificial world made by machines, seem so real.

Yo unders?

Finally someone who holds a similar base on the famouse matrix within matrix theory as mine!(and everyone else's theory obviously)
BaDboYDC_101: we ougt to talk deeply into this. I have the same "ideal" of this argument you are holding down on Neo bieng the "filter" for the matrix, and I pretty much think that both of us(and the rest as well) can come together to finally "understand" a little more about this bugin' theory. Let me know if you wigh to read my thought on these.

I am always seekin ppl who share similar ideas on my theories especially this one, i would much like 2 hear you theory, dont hold ne thing back, as in dept and long as it is. Ill share my in dept own also, so we'll compare and learn from each other.

I am a free mind.

Indeed man, you have to be open minded...this way everybody wins.
Regardin the theories of mine, I'll posy them as soon as I get the time to.
PN

Let's put down two kinds of scenarios; one being the famous matrix-within-the-matrix theory, and the other being the one with the existence of only one matrix.

Let's start off with the second one. Considering that we already know that as the population of the matrix-virtual-world gets bigger and bigger, the probabilities of an anomaly to emerge gets bigger. We know that upon all test subjects, aprox. 99% accepts the program, and only 1% refuses it; a tiny part of that % which doesn’t accept the program is the anomaly, or; the One.
Well, if we think it deeply, then we come to the idea of it being necessary to reload the matrix in order to stop the probabilities to get bigger (as well as stopping the inevitability of the creation of AI inside of the matrix, which can't happen, otherwise there would be too many anomalies to control in too many matrix, infinite matrix), as well as to control that one anomaly and with its code reboot the matrix itself. We also know that all rebels are "hiding" in Zion, and that they could be considered as the 1% of all test subjects which don't accept the matrix [Neo is the 0.000001%(the tiny % of the 1% which doesn’t accept the matrix); the anomaly], so in other words, all of Zion's population are the 1% which refuse the matrix. Therefore, we come to the idea of it being necessary to destroy Zion in order to destroy all freed minds. (“Escalating probability of disaster” in the real world; or escalating personality of threat from the humans to the machines)
That's where the Architect and the Oracle gain importance into this matter. As the Matrix cycle begins, (for all of you who don't know, it starts on the year 1880 and ends on 2009) we know that Zion is rebuilt by every predecessor (the One) choosing 23 people from the matrix, (not from Zion) to this we sum the One and the Oracle, which all form the resistance. Concordantly, Zion's population grows each day, freeing more and more minds to join the resistance, and to keep them with hope and purpose, when the One dies, the Oracle foretells the prophesy to the rebels, saying that the One would eventually come back again, this is THE purpose for the rebels to go on, to carry on. And eventually the anomaly does show up, here is when the Oracle has to find it, control it, to guide it to his path, the one which finishes with the Architect in the source. He is supposed to choose the right door, which leads to the salvation of Zion, and the reboot of the matrix, and eventually the death of the One in some time on. This cycle, as we know, has happened 5 past times already, and Neo's is the sixth.
My point here is that, if the machines have to dig to find Zion, destroy it every time to eliminate and control the freed minds(or humans which don't accept the matrix), in order to then reload the matrix and start the cycle again....then wouldn't it be too much work for them to do this every time?

It is here where we pass to the second scenario, the one of the matrix-within-the-matrix theory. Let's call the first known matrix as the Alpha matrix, and the "real world" as the Beta matrix.
As I see it, it would be a much easier work for the machines to make the "real world" another matrix, another control, this way, the actual machines don't have to dig that much to find and destroy Zion, the only one's who would be doing this would be actual PROGRAMS inside of the "real world", inside the Beta matrix, therefore making it altogether another way of control, to keep those "freed minds" in a measure of control, those minds, as they have already waken up, it's illogical for them to don't accept the "real world" as they see, because it would be as to wake up from a dream and then wake up again from the "reality".

Now, aside from this, I support my theory with one mayor base:

- Neo’s transition from the “real world” to the train stain station in which he apparently got “stuck” after stopping 4 sentinels and got into a some sort of coma. This must have a “why”; it must have a reason, a universal explanation of CAUSALITY. What was the cause? Only the MWM would rationally explain that.(DON'T COME WITH THAT "EXPLANATION" OF NEO'S COMA FROM THAT THREAD PLEASE, IT IS NOT EVEN REFERED IN THE FILM BY ANY ANGLE POSIBLE)

Now, many questions arise from the whole theory, which can be contradictable, but they have their own arguments and possible answers/or solutions;

Q: “Why not pull the plugs instead of sending sentinels?"
A: In final terms, because they (the machines) need to find the anomaly, and it is essential to reload the matrix, the anomaly needs to be controled. Another question arises from this fact;
Q: "Why not pull the plugs of the anomaly once found?"
A: Because they NEED IT to reload the matrix. (also, the conversation of the Architect with Neo is essential, cuz’ the process has to be with at least a piece of choice from the individual) If they don't send the sentinels, what do you think would happen next? Many things would inevitably happen:

a) the rebels would have all of their time to free every mind on the matrix, one by one. Now if in fact there is a matrix outside of the known matrix, why not pull the plugs to eliminate the rebels and the One? : Because they need to reload the matrix with the ONE'S PRIME CODE (I will talk about this later here:*) inside of him, they need to reboot the matrix and start the cycle again; so in conclusion, they need every people who is involved in the PATH OF THE ONE (“which is made by THE PATH OF THE MANY”- Enter the Matrix -)
b) ANOTHER INTERGRAL ANOMALY would emerge. So, they need to control the anomaly that emerges from the mathematical error in the matrix, which gets bigger (the probabilities of an anomaly to emerge) as the population of the matrix grows.
c) They also need to reload the matrix in order to stop the actual creation of AI inside of the matrix, because that would make infinite layers matrix's one inside the other and would bring up too many anomalies to control, would be out of control.
Now, how do they (the machines) get the anomaly to insert his prime code and reload the matrix? By leading him to the source. Why did Neo (in this case) arrived to the source? By going to the Oracle. Why did he go to the Oracle? Because Zion was about to get destroyed, they have limited time in their hands, if not, they would take the time to free everyone's mind one by one; if they hadn't seen the last transmission from the Osiris, and wouldn't be aware of the danger that threatens Zion, they would be taking their time. The Oracle lead them to the Keymaker, the Keymaker lead them to the Source, the source lead Neo to the Architect, the Architect lead Neo to the choice of the two doors. It is the process that NEEDS to be executed in order to RELOAD the matrix and control the minds which reject the matrix (rebels and the One)

Now this huge process leads us to square one, where it is very possible of both theories to be correct or wrong, it could be a single matrix, or a matrix within a matrix....

But, which of both of them is easier for the machines to execute? And makes the ONE MAYOR BASE I support my theory on? (Neo being stuck inside the train station)....yes.... you can answer it yourself....MWM THEORY....

If the machines make another matrix outside of the know matrix, then the one's who have to dig to find Zion, to do the one after one pain in the ass job, are PROGRAMS....programs inside of a matrix, a system of control, as well as a safer system of control for the machines outside the 2 matrix’s (if there are machines outside it).
Also, the transition of Neo’s mind to the train station, or to jack in to the “matrix” (or to a place between the Alpha world and the Beta one) without being plugged in, would only by explained by the fact that the Architect, the Oracle, the Merovingian or the Train man could have manipulated his mind from the Beta world to the Alpha one. (They are programs, so, they have that power) It is the only way to rationally explain it.






* I got another theory referring to Neo's importance in the matrix:
I believe that when the Architect stated that he was frustrated by failure when trying to make a stable matrix, he said that maybe he needed a "lesser mind". This makes me think that maybe he NEEDS to use Neo's mind. Let me explain myself; He inserts the PRIME PROGRAM OR CODE of the matrix in him, he uses his mind and the code to "reflect" the reality of the matrix to all the other minds inside the system, thus this way a imperfect mind reflects like a mirror the reality and he serves as a "FILTER" for everyone's perception of the illusion world. If this were to be true, then Neo is UNDOUBTLY NEEDED to RELOAD and "REFLECT" the matrix in an "imperfect"(or less perfect mind) way, thus making it possible for a computer generated world to be stable and going on.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ON ALL THIS?
PIUKNEO.

All dis was really helpfull, i am ever further on the journey to free my mind

Do you agree on all that? I was wondering if you had some theories of your own...that would help me as well...thanks pal.
PN.

Im in d process of developing a web page based on all my theories in a point-essay form, i link it 2 u soon as im dun

THANX AGAIN PAL, you let me know as soon as you're ready eith it.
PN.

In Reloaded, The Architect said that the only way the Matrix program can exist without it crashing, is if its inhabitants had the ability to choose. The whole Trilogy was about 'choice' ...or more accurately....the illusion of choice.

The only way the program could continue to function as 'reality', is if the humans believed that they had free will , like in reality. Neo {and agent Smith} was the result of a program glitch that originated from the fact that Humans kept on waking up from the Matrix, coz they knew it wasnt reality. Remember the Matrix can only exsist if choice is an option.

If the real world {including Zion} is in fact still part of the Matrix then this 'belief' of choice and free will, when followed to its logical conclusion would mean that Neo, although officially disconnected from the Matrix would also still be subject to the all important rule of choice...'a choice' that is however already predetermined 'or pre-programmed' by the Architect... It was his choice that would manage to keep the Matrix illusion functional...regardless of the decision he made. {to save Trinity or Zion}

Therefore here are the conclusions:


1} If Zion was real, and Neo was unplugged then he wouldnt be subject to the 'rules' of the Architect ...and choice wouldnt be an issue.

2}It is inevitable that the Humans will keep on waking up from the illusion of the Matrix {it happend 5 or 6 times already} and this in effect is a threat to the Matrix existance. So why not let the humans believe that they have woken up from the 'Dream' at least this way they can still be controlled.

3} At the end of Revolutions the Oracle hinted that Neo will return. But why should he return if the illusion is over? {Except to make more money for WB}

4} At the end of Reloaded and throughout Revolutions Neo manages to manipulate space and solid objects in the 'real world' , something that we all know is impossible to do. He also had the strange ability to see without any eyes....

...and finally did anyone notice how one of the machines actually appeared to pass str8 through Neo, when him Trinity were battling them on the Surface?

tea anyone?

of course i could be wrong

I'm also pretty new here, though I usually don't post in the MwM-area.

Just a quick remark on point nr. 4: It was probably not the solid machine-squiddy that flew through Neo, but the ghost (the golden pattern-"code") of the squiddy that collided with Neo. I believe you see an explosion of the squiddy outside of the wind-shield. True though, a solid squiddy through Neo would be the strongest evidence of a MwM-theory.

I'm brooding on a theory that is somewhat between the "regular" theories and the MwM theory. If the pieces fall in place I'll publish it soon... I just don't know were to post it though, but I guess it falls nearer the "regular" category, though I suspect that certain things that hold in a MwM-context would also hold in my theory...


/z

Thanx for correcting that for me. I only looked at Revolutions once and was a little confused by that battle scene with the Machine 'flying' through Neo.

It still raises the question on how Neo is able to see the world at its coded source... in the real world.

Matrix 3 seems to me a pretty lazy movie, where the writers couldnt be bothered to conclude the triology properly. But from what I have seen from the 1st two movies it seems that they were strongly hinting at the whole MwM idea.

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It still raises the question on how Neo is able to see the world at its coded source... in the real world.

Yup, that's of course what everyone is trying to figure out. But you're saying you saw MwM-hints in M1? I suspected something after M1, but I can't recall any hints or things like that... hmmm...

Well, there is one thing that can hint upon MwM (or something more deeper than just that we see in M1) from M1: when Morpheus says "Welcome to the desert of the real!". That's a quote from the book "Simulacra and Simulation", first chapter, (which in turn I believe is a quote from another book). And what that means is something like this: Welcome to the reality which no one knows is real or just a simulated real! When he says this, its obvious that they are not on the real surface of the earth, since they both are plugged in. It's a simulated earth surface (with two arm chairs and a TV(?). So technically Morpheus was right.

But that line, that quote, is a very strong statement, it's very philosophically loaded. Why would Morpheus use that quote? It's as if he was insinuating something. Maybe he was talking about the Matrix, but was he only talking about the Matrix? because when he said it he was actually welcoming Neo to the real world, (or the simulation that represented the real world ...)

One option is that by quoting this line from the book S&S he could have insinuated some suspision that the Machines have somehow manipulted the truths of the "real world" (like what started the war, what year it was, etc). If so, Morpheus' suspision was confirmed later on when Neo revealed "another level of control".

But after that quote from S&S I haven't seen any other hints or statements from Morpheus hinting on any deeper reality than the "real world". He didn't really suspect any deeper Rabbit Hole, at least not in the same way as the Matrix was.

But I agree that the Rabbit Hole deepens more after Neo leaves the architect's room (when touches the Source, sees gold-orange code whatever, feels and destroys sentinels). Whatever the solution, I believe the solution is entwined with the main message of the whole Matrix trilogy. That's an acid test for me, at least.


/z

p.s. When Neo disclosed that the prophecy was a lie, and that the whole thing was just only another level of control: did he disclose the existence of the Architect? Does that mean that the humans still don't know about the Architect and that whole system of control, and cycles of the matrix? Did Neo hide this on purpose? Why?

Hey guys, it has been a while since I've posted so if I'm repeating something someone else has said please forgive me.

Morpheus suggests that he is unsure about the MWM possibility when he says, hugging Niobe at the end of Revolutions: "Is this real?"

I am new to this website so this has proberly been mentioned a million times already...but did anyone notice that Neo had a hollowed out copy of 'Simulacra and Simulation'?

Anyway when I first saw the original Matrix film i noticed that there was such a strong Nilhlistic {err spelling?} feel to it, that i thought its answers about simply waking up from the Matrix and being in the 'real world' would of been to easy and simple... and perhaps they were all still asleep.

I remember the discussion on what food is meant to taste like and how on earth a computer would be able to simulate the taste sensation between eating oatmeal {or whatever it was} and eating chicken. This discussion took place in the real world...and gave the implicit impression that ; how can you ever really tell the diffrence between the real and the fake? At what point could you say...'yes this is reality.' ?

Anyway maybe the problem is with me...coz i analyze things too much. However a more obvious reference to the MwM in the 1st movie is the whole interplay between the disconnected people and the Oracle. How on earth can she predict the actions of people who are supposedly outsite of the Matrix ...or not part of the system? Unless they are really still a part of the system.

...i am gonna stop now. my head hurts.

Yes! That is probably THE most solid agrument to stand FOR the MwM theory: the WHY (and how) of the Oracle predicting the actions of those OUTSIDE of the Matrix or those which are not part of it.
If anyone has a SOLID argument against this...then the MwM theory could possibly be thrown away for good.

I do believe that zion could be another Matrix. However, the question is: how can Zion be another matrix although they know about the matrix in the first place? And therefore I give you this theory:

What If this whole world [Zion] Is another depictment of another world, controlled by some other beings, implanting the knowledge of the Matrix inside their robots, and perhaps people, making a deja vou of what the matrix is really like because they can controll it.

[That was a load of bull i spun off thetop of my head, but if you think about it hard enough, it might make sense...

There is no matrix within a matrix. The yellow code people speak of is not code, it is the power of everything that touches the source, which is only visible to neo.

Go pop in your Revolutions DVD. Skip to the part where Trinity and Neo are dodging sentinels/bombs and neo sees their link to the source. Watch a squidy glide through Neo in Yellow-vision. What you are seeing is a glimpse of the source's strategy of sending sentinels into the ship. With neo being connected to the source, he is in shock because of this. If the real world was another matrix layer, then a sentinel would have gored neo, but it doesn't, therefor there is no sub-matrix.

Just the first example I could think of, there are probably dozens more proofs.

ja ja, whatever, think what you want.

I am also sorry for posting an irrelevant message.

My theory is that the Matrix-within a-Matrix Theory is just an idea that people used to get over the shock of the idea that a sci-fi/techno themed film actually dared to steer away from purely mechanical explanations and feel-good emotions, and introduce an idea that there is more to this world than what your calculator and computer can discern.

Why does the MwM Theory exist? Did one person make it up? The answer is no. This theory was created almost instantaneously be almost every movie viewer that refused to acknowledge or accept the idea of "higher power" in a kung fu film. God, Bhudda, ki, etc., whatever you wanna call it. The film is spiritual in nature, though not specific to one kind of spiritual ideal, and those who support the MwM theory generally don't care for or deny the spiritual message. It is a unique spiritual message, and depending on your philosophy, you'll ultimately see the films very differently. The MwM theory comes from those who don't see or accept that spiritual message at all. And it comes most priminently from those who saw the last few seens in Reloaded, when Neo does incredible things OUTSIDE of the Matrix. "Oh no, there's no way he did that. It's impossible. He must be in yet another computer program."

This isn't to say your dumb. Believe what you want. On the other hand, we can make a whole bunch of other "matrix theories" that involve huge plot twists and "Machine's trick everybody out" revelations, but it just doesn't go with the spirit or energy of the film.

Why devote all that time, money, and energy on the Super Burly Brawl, all so that when we get to the end, only the "clever" viewers (i.e. the ones who deny the spiritualism of the film), can find out that it was all a waste and the humans are still pwn3d by the machines? The theories, when using the script, and certain scenes, do make sense. I can't deny that. But when you compare them to how the film was actually constructed, looking at the musical score patterns, noticing where the film concentrates its close-ups , and how the film ends... the theory becomes silly. I doubt the Wachowski brothers messed up when making the film and forgot to emphasize the part where the machines actually trick everyone. A good film has a nice, subtle feel to it. I don't think there was any subtlety in the Trilogy that indicated the machines were winning the fight the whole time.

In my mind, the Matrix was never really about the physical war. As we get deeper into the films, we learn that many of the fights the humans and the machines have prove largely inconsequential. An agent kills this guy and that guy, then Morpheus or someone gets lucky and slams the agent into a guard rail, or pushes him into the path of train or a truck. These victories are cool to watch, but are ultimately minor to the whole story. It's not about keeping humans in the perfect virtual reality either. The MwM theory is an idea of infinite loops. What is reality. What is fake? This question is ALREADY asked in the films. The MwM theory merely over-complicates, because now the reader doesn't even know if the story is real. He may have just spent six hours wasting his time with an experiment he knows nothing about. But the fight scenes were cool.

It's about purpose, truth, reality, correctness, etc. What does it mean to be perfect, powerful, truthful? It's not about, "Machine's create a seriously over-complicated mess of mind games on humans, wasting tons of resources to do it. Features kung fu."

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In Reloaded, The Architect said that the only way the Matrix program can exist without it crashing, is if its inhabitants had the ability to choose. The whole Trilogy was about 'choice' ...or more accurately....the illusion of choice.

The Architect created that which controls humans, and the idea that humans can have the freedom to choose whatever they do and think was created by the Oracle. The two are playing a game and are trying to outsmart the other. The humans believing they have free will means some points for the Oracle, and she wins if they recieve free will while the machines end their threat and destruction.


If the real world {including Zion} is in fact still part of the Matrix then this 'belief' of choice and free will, when followed to its logical conclusion would mean that Neo, although officially disconnected from the Matrix would also still be subject to the all important rule of choice...'a choice' that is however already predetermined 'or pre-programmed' by the Architect

Neo(Christ), created by the Oracle(God), was disconnected from the Matrix by her, and despite the Architect(the Devil) giving Neo a choice as to what door to pass through, he chooses to save Trinity(love) which gives the Architect points since Neo spends his time fighting for love while the sentinels are being given more time to dig for Zion and the danger increases. Neo really has no control of his desire for Trinity, so the Architect still has control over the path Neo takes at the end of Reloaded and the machines would have probably been defeated had Neo chose not to save Trinity after she was shot by the agent. Think about what the Morivingian(another creation of the Architect) says about the cake and the woman eating it. Zion, free will or free humans was the Oracle's idea and the Architect is trying to beat her by taking control of her humans and deleting free will.

1} If Zion was real, and Neo was unplugged then he wouldnt be subject to the 'rules' of the Architect ...and choice wouldnt be an issue.

Zion is not real and is a Matrix created by the Oracle. Neo is subject to the power of the Oracle and when that power drives Neo to make his own choices and frees himself from the Architect or Devil, God or the Oracle gets points.

2}It is inevitable that the Humans will keep on waking up from the illusion of the Matrix {it happend 5 or 6 times already} and this in effect is a threat to the Matrix existance. So why not let the humans believe that they have woken up from the 'Dream' at least this way they can still be controlled.

Even though choice and free will were created by the Oracle, they are strengths humans are born with because of her power, but she cannot just make someone free and they have to find that power and learn to use it. The humans waking up from the Matrix by the Oracle and being put back to sleep by the Architect are like rounds in a boxing match and is part of that game.

3} At the end of Revolutions the Oracle hinted that Neo will return. But why should he return if the illusion is over? {Except to make more money for WB}

Games are fun, and the Oracle and Architect not only love playing their game, but are messing around. None of this is serious to them and they are like two kids racing down a road on bicycles trying to beat each other to the local bakery. Neo will return because the Architect and Oracle, like Olympic athletes, will train for the next matches and maybe the Oracle once again will create the better ideas. She obviously appears to be more clever and the Architect still has his dream of one day beating her which obviously he never has.

4} At the end of Reloaded and throughout Revolutions Neo manages to manipulate space and solid objects in the 'real world' , something that we all know is impossible to do. He also had the strange ability to see without any eyes....

...and finally did anyone notice how one of the machines actually appeared to pass str8 through Neo, when him Trinity were battling them on the Surface?

Well, the Oracle(God) works in mysterious ways. he he