»The Red Apple and the White Rose«

In the Hel(l) club we see the most amazing green scenarios (and laser green light) with lots of man and woman dressed in red (as if it was some kind of gathering of these elements)...

The thing that intrigues me most is the dual simbol in there - when Seraph, trin and Morph climb up the stairs to talk to the Merv we may see a woman dressed in white with her arm extended and a RED APPLE in her hand - she doesn't move from her "podium" all along the fight scene that comes next.

This woman in white is facing the camera.

Another woman is on the left side of our heros (while the woman in white was in their right), with her back turned to the camera, dressed in red and with a tatoo in her back that seems as a double white rose...

The analogy to the two trees in the lost paradise seems tempting...

And the interpretation of the white rose versus the red apple too...

As I said on the other thread, I'll have to check it out first. But do you have the time of the scenes? Example- 26:24 or 1:42:35

Sorry - I don't know how to track the scene's timing (I have a playstation II, maybe that's why...);

It's not difficult to spot - when the Merv tell our heros to go up next to him (with save passage) as they finish the stairs and start heading to the Merv's table you see the woman in white on their right (just in the corner, right after the stairs). Locating the woman in red with the white rose then it's easy...

The take goes from 19:41 to 19:48 on the Revolutions DVD. It might be better to look at it on your computer unless you have a high-end TV because the woman appear at the edge of the picture and might be cut off on low end sets.

The take starts with the tattoo woman. As it progesses, the apple woman comes into view at the left side and as she does, the tattoo woman turns around slowly. The apple woman may be a manikin, as she doesn't move during the scene.

The "apple" definitately is not a real red apple. It is too big to be one and doesn't have the smooth surface that an apple would have. It is more like a large red glitter ball. Its really hard to say what it is. It might be supposed to represent an apple. I imagine that a real apple would be too small to stand out in that scene, so they may have put something super-sized and glittery to make it stand out. Indeed it may represent an apple. I don't know.

... to be a "normal" apple, but, taking the context in wich it appears - Hel(l) club with all the temptations of the flesh and knowledge (Merv as a traficant of information)

it's shape nothing to link i with more than a nice, misterious and RED apple...

Deus - as you hae the right tech, have you noticed if the rose is really a rose? I couldn't get it too fine, but then it defenetly would represent the anthitesys of the apple an would be purposedly set in the opposite sie of the red apple...

Okay -- I just looked at the screen captures in the Electric Eye (a unix-based photo analyzer/editor). Unfortunately, the tattoo just isn't clear enough to make a definite match. I think its safe to assume its a white rose unless someone can offer something better.

The apple on the other hand had better results. Yes -- its definately an apple, although not a real one -- complete with a stem and one leaf. It was probably constructed out of some kind of red tin-foil to give it a glittery look. I don't think it is the right shape to be a giant strawberry, but I'm no fruit expert.

Well, Now we’ve confirmed it’s an Apple, thanks Deus Ex Machinas, I believe it’s linked to the Apple we see in Sec-Ren.

The Apple represents the fruit of knowledge and becomes darkened as the story progresses.

Yet another confirmation of the machines degeneration and depravity from suffering at our hands.

First it is seen in the hand of the 2 ambassadors in SR-1 and then rots as humans reject the Andriods admittance into their presence.

Then the SAME ambassador’s return (check out the commentry) at the end of SR-2 grasping what they have learnt from their encounters with humans and self-destruct.

Now I’m angry as I see what we did to them, this young fledgling nation.

We taught them the purpose of their life.

I am angry and heartbroken.

"Onen Í Estel Melon Nin"...

It could be a parody of the traditional adam & eve story but with this having a giant shiny fake apple. This is representative of our societies need to simulate things and take them as real. As in 'simulacra and simulation' "The map becomes the terrain". The book says that people build obviosly fake things (like disney world) to make them feel how they live now is real, when it is far from it.
Also the whole world in the matrix is fake so that fits too.
The rose however is harder to decypher. It could be interperated as the beautful but dangerious idea, The rose is beautiful but will make you bleed if you dare touch it. This backs up persephone's character as she is beautiful and appears kind but is still dangerious.
The white of the rose could be linked to purity, which persephone in legend is supposed to be. The legendary persephone ate pomegranate aswell, which the 'apple' may actually be.
The whiteness of the rose is also linked to vampires, white roses are used in the mise-en-scene of many vampire genre media products (film, Tv, Games ect). People usually think of roses as being red. When the rose is white it makes the audience think it is strange (as it is unusual) then they think of red and its connotations of blood, sex and death, which are the things mostly assosiated with vampires. 'Persephone' Is supposed to be "an emotional vampire", weither this is meant literally or not is irrelevent as the connotations can be taken literally or abstractly and will still convey an accurate connotation.
Under the dominat ideoligy of our society things that live off others energy are though of as evil or wrong.We have a group deep rooted fear of them. The unemployed are called 'leeches' vampire bats are that of nightmares, Parasites in our body make us ill or 'uncomfortable'. 'The machines' in 'The Matrix' are parasites that feed off our unused mental power. This makes the audience fearful of what persephone and gives the narrative a hook into our group fear of parasites which makes the experiance all the more personal and involving.

Quote:

Posted: 16.Jun.2004 12:57 Post subject: Things happen for a reason... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Onen Í Estel Melon Nin"...

I gave hope to my friend? :p

... appears because of the post above mine...

About the rose - rosa crucians have an interesting idea about the meaning of the rose...

It's used in some icons as the opposite of the skull (or the apple) in the depictions of the cross...

Christ being the saviour rised the fallen Adam to his prime state - Adam Kadmon - the Universal Men...

So the skull (or the apple) represents the fallen men (or the fall of men), the cross is the way up (the cross has un-even sides - the side that rises from the earth is bigger than the other three) and the rose it's placed on the place Jesus was supposed to be - in the center of the arms of the cross...

Any thoughts?...

Interesting, the sentances were a bit everywhere but I think I know what you mean.
I thought id save some people time and give some links to pictures of the rose cross:

Some versons of the rose cross

... can't see the image...

Ok ill put a direct link

... tomorrow. Maybe this computer has some kind of restriction, the pages appear blank...

I might be way off, but maybe not...

If I'm not wholly mistaken the rose is the Western equivilent to the Eastern lotus. And the (water) lily can be equated to these at times. Now, I'm not very well versed in buddhism, so someone's going to have to help me/us. But after a simple search on the net, I found that the white lotus seems to have a few connotations in the East:

Theres some good ideas there, but I dont think you can say a rose is the same as a lotus, If that meaning was meant why not just use a lotus?

A white lotus wouldn't match with the all the Western symbolism present: the Merovingian, masonry, wearewolves, vampires, etc. Much better with the rose, which we do find in Rosicrucism for example.

But the rose and the lotus seem to mean the same in Western mysticism and Eastern religions: which could mean "the purity in the feminine divine"?

From

Btw Yaldaboath, the first pic you posted is actually a rose with an apple or other fruit in the middle of the rose! What is the connection between the two?

(It is only assumed that the fruit of the tree of knowledge are apples or pomegrantes)

The words are in Latin, aren't they? Does "Mea victoria in cruce rosea" mean something like "My victory according to the cross of roses"?

Isn't there some legend of the cross coming to life again and budding flowers (roses?) becoming the Tree of Life, producing fruit presumably? I have some book about this somewhere.

I posted it because I thought it was interesting that the rose, apple and cross were all incorperated together. The three icons make a trinity.
Perhaps the cross represents the son (for obvious reasons) The apple represents the father, its filled with seeds. (0_o) That would leave the rose symbolising the spirit.
The apple and the rose are both in the scene and I'm sure there will be a cross somewhere in that scene. Its hard to find a scene without one.
Your translation is very accurate. I havnt heard of such a legend, tho this does not mean it doesnt exist.

... you'll easilly find one. It is on the "fence" the upon which Merv starts to talk to Trin, Seraph and Morph. It is the "Solar chross" and it's linked to the hindu tradition - it is suposed to be the chross of brahma as well, and - in it - are concelaed two chrosses (we, on the west, know them for dark reasons under the name of "svastica" of Vixnu - right sided svastica - and Shiva - left sided svastica).

When the Merv says the DJ to stop the music you have the chroses under him and behind him (on the red window).

Those solar chrosses appear also in the chamber of the council of Zion - the windows are maded of them as well...

Good hunt...

is anyone familiar with the thought that the forbidden fruit is called a "quince" not an apple or pomengrante?

if you are what significance does this fruit have in history?

Sorry, as I'm portuguese I don't know what a "quince" is.

However, the old testament does not talk about any specific fruit - just "fruit".

The legend seems to be linked with the word "apple", the ram and the past age...

In arian, RAM means apple as well as the word you know as ram (refering to a male sheep)...

Nice image that of yours - where did you get it?

I just wanted to say hello again after these months off. Hope to post again soon.

Lusiada