»Conclusions about the Indian Family«

I recently saw Revolutions, after 6 months I might add. One thing that I was not sure about before was the situation about the Indian Family. Some said that they are pure programs coming from a separate Machine Matrix. Others said that they are the minds (programs) of machines from the real world. I decided that I would not discuss it until I saw the movie again. So here's what I gathered.

Quote:

Oracle: He is trapped in a place between this world and the machine world

This establishes that the Trainstation is indeed between the real world and the Matrix. There is no second Machine Matrix....atleast that we know about.

Quote:

Rama-Kandra: This place is nowhere. It is between your world and our world.

For this statement to be consistent with the above statement, `your world' refers to the Matrix and `our world' would have to be the real world. This means that the family is from the real world.

Quote:

Rama-Kandra: I am the power-plant systems manager for recycling operations. My wife is an interactive software program.

More evidence that they are the programs from machines in the real world.

So thats the conclusion I reached to. Discuss. Any thoughts, confirmations, rebuttals? Feel free.

Very nice work Akshat. I agree w/what you're saying about them being programs of real-world machines. What bothers me is how were they created Sati and how she was marked for deletion? Did they actually create a new machine in the real world? Did the meet and mate while running around in the Matrix? If that's true, why are the programs of machines interacting within the Matrix? Discuss.

Yes, I agree that the family must be coming from 01 because they deal they strike with Merv is to smuggle Sati INTO the matrix.. so i don't think it's a possibility that they are from the matrix.

i'm of the opinion that a program doesn't have to have a corresponding machine "body" in the real world.. unless they are required to have one for some purpose. they wouldn't just create a body for no reason.. or simply to bring themselves into "real" existence.. after all "to an artificial mind, all reality is virtual".

as for HOW they created Sati.. my guess is simply that they simply compiled her like any other program... as AI is evolving, they are beginning to develop seemingly more human characteristics, which is why they now have this concept of marriage & procreation.. but really, it is just a word that they use to describe the fact that 2 programs have come together to create a new program.

she is marked for deletion because the machines are all about efficiency. having a program that exist without any useful function in 01 would be a waste of time and resources which is why she is marked for deletion.

I think programs can interact with and maintain machines in the machine-world. But they run separately within an environment. They reside within the Source-network (problably most of them have virtual chambers to do their tasks).

So what I am trying to say is that they can 'travel' to and 'operate' machines within the Source-network, but they are NOT machines themselves; just pieces of software.

Sati was probably indeed written and compiled by Rama and Kamala, but this also makes me wonder. Programs can have and enjoy sex, if we look at the Merovingian. I imagine that he had alot of fun with Persephone too in the beginning of their marriage.

Why can and will a program have sex? What's the efficiency in that?
Do you think Rama and Kamala had sex or that they just compiled Sati by writing her in a program-language?

I'm thinking that Rama & Kamala had sex. Also, they're married (Rama is wearing a wedding ring) which shows they have some attatchment and commitment to each other. Perhaps the machines observing how humans procreate have taken that example and use the same methods for creating new programs. A guess, but it is feasable.

Hmm....I dont know about that one. Sex is just the way humans reproduce. I dont think machines can actually have sex. Their way of reproducing is writing and compiling programs. That would be their `sex'. After all, remember in the beginning there was only 1 singular consiousness that spawned the race of machines. So he reproduced and his species by writing more programs.

Merv, on the other hand, being a pure program in the Matrix and having an RSI and whatnot can experience sex because they are in the virtual environment which simulates that experience. He is just enjoying himself with the girls.

That's not what I'm saying Akshat. I don't think machines in the real-world have sex either, but perhaps sex is a way for machines to create a new program within the Matrix. I don't think that Sati has a machine counterpart. I think she's all program. Perhaps, Rama and Kamala are the first to write a program this way.

Oh right right right. I know what you're saying now. I guess it is possible that Sati is a pure program. But then, where would she live? In the Matrix? No because she is going to the Matrix now and she said that she had to `leave her home'. So where else? In the Trainstation? I doubt that. So that just leaves the real world. What do you think?

Yeah...I forgot she said that. Fuck. I dunno, man. What's tripping me out is what Rama says to Neo.

Quote:

Rama-Kandra: Any program that doesn't have a purpose is deleted.

Does that mean that the program is deleted and the machine is destroyed? Is just the program deleted? Maybe Rama and Kamala had a house in the Matrix that had leave when Agents came to delete Sati. I dunno. Hopefully as the tread continues we'll all reach some clarity.

Think of the word program as a brain. The mind; the intellect. So this is why Smith (a program) took over Bane. He replaced Bane's mind with his program. So similarly, all the machines also have a brain or software or....program. So even if Sati is a machine, her program was not needed and therefore was marked for deletion. So the image of Sati and the rest of the family we see in the Trainstation is the digital representation of their programs. Much like an RSI. An RSI for machines.

am i missing something here? when she says she had to leave her home, why can't she be referring to 01?

Programs being RSI of machines just doesn't work.

This way they can just kill exiles like the Merovingian and Seraph by shooting their machines down.

Also, if a program is the 'soul' of a machine, it would not be called a program but an operating system (OS).

Back on sex...
I don't think it is efficient to create another program by just having sex and mixing code. It is not efficient and you don't get the parameters in it you want.
I agree on the idea that Rama and Kamala might be the first programs to have sex out of love with an inefficient program as a result.

I still don't understand the reason why the Merovingian is horny.
I know that AI-minds can experience things and evolve themselves. But how come the agents are never horny then? I don't think agents even sleep or eat, it's just not efficient.

Because Merv is an exile and can do whatever he wants. He doesn't listen to whats efficient and whats not anymore. It fits in with his character for him to be horny. He just takes all the pleasure for himself. Just look at his lifestyle.

Back on programs.... I didn't say all programs are RSIs of machines. I believe it is only true of the Indian family. The rest of the programs that we see are just pure programs.

I take it that means you dont agree with my hypothesis about the Indian Family. Do you have an alternative view?

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Because Merv is an exile and can do whatever he wants. He doesn't listen to whats efficient and whats not anymore. It fits in with his character for him to be horny. He just takes all the pleasure for himself. Just look at his lifestyle.

yes, this is true.. he is the embodiment of excess and over-indulgence.. which is why he surrounds himself in his luxury chateau, with his fine wine, fine food and of course.. fine women.

the indication is that programs like the Merovingian and Persephone did not start out like that.. remember what Persephone says when asked what she "wants" by Ghost/Niobe... (this is off the top of my head so it might not be verbatim)

Quote:

A long time ago I did not even know what that question meant. Now it is all I ever think about.

also consider Smith.. when he started experiencing shades of human behaviour back in M1, he hated it.. he saw it as weakness... but in Reloaded and Revolutions.. he embraces it.. revels in it.. he is ego personified... likewise i feel its possible that the Merovingian and Persephone were also consumed by their indulgences only after they were given their first tastes..

Very good. Thats it.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Because Merv is an exile and can do whatever he wants. He doesn't listen to whats efficient and whats not anymore. It fits in with his character for him to be horny. He just takes all the pleasure for himself. Just look at his lifestyle.

OK, I can agree on that. Like wAkE_uP_nEo already stated, they are addicted. And addiction is very often linked with sin, which suits Mero and Perso very well.

Quote:

Back on programs.... I didn't say all programs are RSIs of machines. I believe it is only true of the Indian family. The rest of the programs that we see are just pure programs. I take it that means you dont agree with my hypothesis about the Indian Family. Do you have an alternative view?

I stated my view before

In my view the Source is the AI driven operating system (OS).
The rest are all programs and advanced networking protocols.
Even the Matrix is a program which runs upon the operating system, being the Source.

Simple comparison:

Windows 2000 is the Source

The game (program) "The Sims" is the Matrix

The recycle bin is Rama

Mobile Ave Station is Norton firewall

The dos/command-prompt is the Architect's chamber

The internet connection is the protocol which connects the machine city and all the other warfare like the Sentinels and bombs

Rama-Kandra has to operate machines in order to recylce the pod-people, but he isn't a machine himself. He is a program which commands the appropiate machines within the network.

While the music player "Winamp" adresses your soundcard to make music, Rama adresses the recycling-machines.
Winamp has to go by Windows first by accessing the driver for your soundcard. Rama has to go by the Source-network first, accessing the machines which he has authority to.

Oh right right. I didn't realize you stated your view above. Sorry.

No problem.

I like restating and restating it again and again

And when I will state it the sixth time, you are going to choose to believe it

Maybe....seeing as Neo was the sixth one. This time thing might turn out differently.

Rama-Kandra the recycling bin. I like that. So maybe he isn't recycling real things in the real world. Maybe his job is to deal with resources that have been marked for deletion by the machines, and recylcing them.

Maybe Sati was placed in the recycling bin (Mobil Ave) by the machines. It was Rama-Kandra's duty to deal with what goes there. He was confronted with the task of having to recycle his daughter's disk space and couldn't bring himself to do so, so instead he goes to the Frenchman and transfers her over to the Matrix instead.

Actually this is kinda neat, but I think it has holes in it. Trainman, not Rama-Kandra seems to be the boss of Mobil Ave for instance.

As for the family's shells, I think that the Kamala is responsible for this. She is a very creative interactive software writter. She probably wrote a shell for the three of them.

Well sorry dude.

He is the the power plant systems manager for recycling operations.

So it is strictly related to the prisoned humans.

The recycle bin was just the simplest of the simple comparison.

The Source is much bigger, much more stable and much more complicated than Windows 2000. It is also driven by AI, a self learning-concept; Windows is not.

Quote:

Maybe Sati was placed in the recycling bin (Mobil Ave) by the machines. It was Rama-Kandra's duty to deal with what goes there. He was confronted with the task of having to recycle his daughter's disk space and couldn't bring himself to do so, so instead he goes to the Frenchman and transfers her over to the Matrix instead.

that would against what the trainman said....

Quote:

I made this place. Down here, I make the rules Down here, I make the threats Down here, I'm God

i think Mobil_Ave_Neo's analogy compared the recycle bin with Rama.. and not Mobil Ave itself

I am going further towards a comprehensive understanding of how the whole system works which I didnt before because I hadn't properly seen Revolutions.

I believe there are two types of programs- Pure-Programs and Machine-Programs. Of course pure programs can be further divided into whether they are exiles or not.

Machine-Programs are the minds/programs of all those machines who live in 01. Examples are of course, the Indian family. It would make sense to me that all the machine-programs are also connected in a network similar to the Matrix.

Imagine a robot in today's world. Now imagine the robot's mind or program. It only does what its told to and what it knows. For it to interact with other robots, or anything else for that matter, it would have to see that robot and know all about it and you know what I mean. For a whole army of robots to interact together and work together (the whole point of AI), all their programs/minds would have to interact in a network together which enables them to see each other and understand each other.

Of course, this sounds very familiar. This is the type of network the Matrix is. Except the humans take part in it. Pure-Programs also take part in the Matrix the same way.

So my hypothesis is that all the machine-programs are connected in a network in the same way. This would be another Major Program which is run by the Source. The other 2 we know of is the Matrix and the Architect's chamber.

The Indian Family is from the real world indeed. But their minds/programs were connected to this other machine network. They then left there and came as pure programs to the Trainstation. Sati now is a pure-program but still interacts with the Matrix network as she would with her `home', the machine network.

Of course this is all based on theory and then on logic and my own belief of how systems work. Because everyone has a different view on how the Matrix system works, and because no one is sure, this will not be coherent with everyone's beliefs. However I want to see if it makes sense and is plausible based on how I believe the system works.

All responses are appreciated. Let me know if you think this could work and if not, why. Thanks in advance.

I hope this generates some interest.

Hi Akshat,
I pretty agree with your theory, simply because that is what I was trying to say in another threads before and which is also very close to Mobil_Ave_Neo's view.

However, there is certain confusion of terms that people here are using. For instance 'machine world' is for me the machine network you are talking about and we can only theorize how does it look like - whether it resembles matrix or whether it is something quite different.

I agree that the Source is like an operating system - something that interacts directly with hardware - that is with the hardware, which the machines operate (like sentinels, power plant etc.), on which the matrix run and which is also the network of machine world (although it is not literaly 'hard' because machines use wireless connection quite efficiently). This hardware enables machines run the software, which in turn operates the hardware. It is highly cross-connected (unlike your computer that do not care about the electricity generation - it is up to any separate system).

Basicly, all the hardware can be seen as machines' "body" that is there to support the mind(s) of AI. The "body" is operated by the source, which is a very basic but also very complicated program, on which is build the whole "body". It is like a DNA for human's body - it influences our appearence and our behaviour, but very indirectly - by the structure of our body and structure of our mind.

The thing that makes difference between humans and AI is that AI can change its source - the structure that shapes its "body".

I imagine it like that: AIs 'live' in its own environment - the machine world - from which they govern its "body" that is all the machines but may decide also on change of the source (the AI can be saved during the change on some kind of hard disk, which is quite unable with human mind so far).

Besided this machine world, there is the other living environment - the matrix - and it is done because of people (they live there, machines study them and learn from them) and also because of machines that gets energy out of peoples' bodies.

What is the trainstation in this context? It is the imaginary place (nowhere) between those two worlds: machine world (the machines' network) and matrix (network for human minds?). It is the program that facilitates some kind of transcription from one environment to another. The analogy may be as follows: it would be a program that enables you to move your character from the game Sims to another game, Warcraft for instance.

That's why Kamala says to Neo: "You do not belong here." It signified recognition that Neo is neither AI nor program (those are the only 'inhabitants' of machine world). The transcription of Neo to enter the machine world could not be done without the loss of his humanity (like your character from Sims - its appearance could be transcribed to Warcraft, but others qualities would be probably lost, because they are useless in another game).

Personally, I think that similar transformation happened to Merv before: he used to be the One (and human too) but once he was transformed/changed into program, he lost his humanity, his physical human body was dead.

So, what I think is that Rama & Kamala are programs from machine world that operates physical machines like Rama (they 'move' the machines' "body") or oparares/creates another programmes like Kamala (she changes the 'mind' that gives orders to the machines' "body"). When they got together (physical part and psychical part) the outcome was Sati. And Sati knows a lot about programmes and matrix (due to Kamala) but also about people (due to Rama-Kandra).

Does it make a sence to you too?