»Why Zion is just another Matrix, point 1.«

Neo 'saw' a golden code Sentinel that goes through the ship without damaging it, then 'absorbed' by Neo, then Neo knew the only way to beat the sentinels is by going up above the cloud.

In the Matrix, Neo saw a golden Seraph; in the 'real world', he saw a golden Smith; and also in the 'real world'/machine world, he saw a golden sentinel. That conclusively prove that the sentinel is a code/program, it is not real.

i'm not really sure why that conclusively proves anything.. have u not considered the fact that everything that was shown as golden was machine-made? if zion was another matrix.. wouldn't he be able to see EVERYTHING in gold?

I beleive that zion is not another simulation as in it being run by a program, but i beleive that everything in the universe is made of some thread that links the whole universe, like the matrix code but a divine code insted of a computer one.

well it would certainly explain a lot of stuff

neo's powers
neo's sight
how neo got stuck in the trainman's station

but then if the matrix in matrix theory is possible so is the one where neo is a program

There is ONE mayor thing that no one seems to be getting . Remember when Neo was not yet aware of him being the One? Well, that was because he didn't want to, BUT when he was part of the matrix, I mean when he was still connected to the crops of humans to the system of the matrix, he was technically been CONTROLED by the machines as every uman being with him. Let me explain myself. when you are are part of the matrix, you are conected to it(not part of the system as a program); the matrix sends to your brains electric signals which stimulate a specific sensitive zone in the brain and/or body with it, this makes you FEEL, ACT, THINK, etc, inside of the computer genetared world that it is. this signlas are contrroled by THE MACHINES, thus they have the POWER to choose which parts of the matrix they want him to see. this put on the context of the "real world", it would bring a situation: that which Neo SEES in gold code or whatever it is, is being send by the machines if the real world is a matrix. THINK about it, Neo can not choose which things to see or not, as long as he is part of the matrix(real world), he has to firstly awake from that "reality" to control his sight and powers properly.

PN! WUN, when Neo met Seraph in the Matrix, it was only Seraph he saw in 'gold', not the surrounding rite? And i supposed when Neo met the Oracle he saw the same thing, in which he comes to the conclusion that Seraph and Oracle are programs.

the only time we see the Oracle in "matrix-vision" she is not gold, but green.. or some might say an intense whiteish-green..

How on earth is there O2 in the air in the machine world? How is it possible that Neo and Trin could have breathed? I dont see any tree, and why would the machine want oxygen? It makes them rusty.

First of all, let's not forget that the golden aura is NOT code. If you notice, it has no alphanumeric/katakana characters in it like the green matrix code.
So seeing something like that in the real world does not necessitate that the real world is just another coded reality. It it just another sense that Neo has.

Second, about the O2. Oxygen is removed from the environment by living things (even plants, although they pump out more than they remove). Oxygen is replaced by plants. So without either of these factors (no plants, but no animals either) the O2 in the atmosphere would remain generally stable.
True, Neo and Trinity are there, but even 250,000 people on a giant planet breathing oxygen is negligible. Especially considering they may have machines in Zion that synthesize O2.
Iron does rust with oxygen, yes, but given the advanced state of the machines' technology, I imagine most of them are built with at least some sort of stainless steel.

Malenien wrote:

First of all, let's not forget that the golden aura is NOT code. If you notice, it has no alphanumeric/katakana characters in it like the green matrix code. So seeing something like that in the real world does not necessitate that the real world is just another coded reality. It it just another sense that Neo has.

It's not just about the "GOLDEN CODE" or whatever he sees in the "real world"....it more about many things which take place in there;
HOW WOULD YOU RAZIONALLY EXPLAIN NEO'S ENTRANCE INTO THE TRAIN STATION? He DID NOT get him self inside there. And his is not a program (if you want to know why I can further-explain my self I you like). THEN, HOW? We all know the best answer to that question.

Pardon me but LOL... dont tell me u found religion from watching this trilogy? There were quite a few mistakes (editing etc) i this movie...come on Its an excellent marketing strategy though...and thats all it is, the W bros arent prophets.

If u say that the golden aura does not indicate code, then what is the similarity of Seraph in the Matrix (a program from the 'machine world'), Smith in Zion (definately not human, but Neo sees Smith's aura), and the sentinel that goes into Neo, how do u explain that?

hadimatrix wrote:

Pardon me but LOL... dont tell me u found religion from watching this trilogy? There were quite a few mistakes (editing etc) i this movie...come on Its an excellent marketing strategy though...and thats all it is, the W bros arent prophets.

no they aren't prophets... the religious element is only 1 aspect.. the movies deal with religion, science, mathematics and philosophy in equal measure.. they are a reconciliation of these different human interpretations of existence itself - that is the beauty of it.

what mistakes are you talking of? can we have examples?

Dont get me wrong...i still enjoy the movies...the cool factor and all, the Matrix was brilliant, an excellent cult movie...but it was spoilt by the last 2 followups.

Here it is:

1. The were a few scenes of Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity where they got a hole on their neck (to jack in), then its gone, then its there again, then gone....

2. I know that a lot of hackers (and crackers too), applaud the use of Nmap by Trin to break into the Matrix, but the command that she entered, suspiciously look familiar to the current version, that suggests that in Zion, they are just entering the 21st century, but isnt this supposed to be the future? Then y....unless....

Quote:

the Matrix was brilliant, an excellent cult movie...but it was spoilt by the last 2 followups

That I cant tolerate. You should die!

hadimatrix wrote:

1. The were a few scenes of Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity where they got a hole on their neck (to jack in), then its gone, then its there again, then gone....

which scenes?

hadimatrix wrote:

2. I know that a lot of hackers (and crackers too), applaud the use of Nmap by Trin to break into the Matrix, but the command that she entered, suspiciously look familiar to the current version, that suggests that in Zion, they are just entering the 21st century, but isnt this supposed to be the future? Then y....unless....

that is not what i would call a mistake by any means.. if they changed the commands, i bet you'd have someone saying.. oh Trinity was supposed to be using Nmap but she got the commands all wrong..[/quote]

LOL gupt! Glad to see the movies have enrichen your life....pity it couldnt do anything bout those poor and hungry ppl in africa, india, indonesia etc. Im sure the W bros and the movie execs dont mind tho, thats the real world right?

Haha. You make a good point.

This is what I think of the significance of the SPOON scene in Rev. The Kid brought the spoon to Neo just about when Bane/Smith about to kill Neo, coincidence? Perhaps, but tats not that big of an issue.

The Kid says "Neo! Just in time. You're gonna see the Oracle, aren't you?
....I'm sorry, sir, I just have to give something to Neo. A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand".

Is it the same orphan Neo met in the 1st movie, where he first met the Oracle? I think it is, and I also assume that the orphan is now in Zion but he couldnt give it to Neo himself so he asked the Kid to do it for him.

Remember what the orphan said to Neo back in the Oracle's apartment? Orphan boy said "Your spoon does not bend because it is just that, a spoon. Mine bends because there is no spoon, just my mind".

And there it is in Zion, Neo is holding a spoon, but I think he didnt understand it, coz if he does, he would know that there is NO SPOON!

Its a good luck message and a reminder message to Neo from the same orphan. No big deal. Besides, you think the machines can get rid of oxygen? Consider how the hell they can just get rid of oxygen

Ha..ha..ha...I sure didnt see Neo wearing it around his neck like Link does with the charm given to him by Zee. Maybe...just maybe....this is one of the hint/clue the W bros thought of? If it is a reminder, of what? The moments the 2 have in the apartment? I bend my spoon, u bent my spoon...

Dont u agree Gupt tat oxygen would make the machines rusty? To rid of it then, just BURN baby BURN! And how about this...no sun and Neo and Trin doesnt feel cold at all...but i can accept that...its only a movie so its not perfect.

i don't see what your obsession with rust is... i mean we build machines now that aren't particularly susceptible to rust.. we can use stainless steel.. titanium or all sorts of metal alloys.. u said yourself.. this is the future.. their metal alloys are probably even way more in advance than our own now..

as for burning the oxygen.. do u have any idea how much energy would be wasted? to burn all the oxygen off the face of the earth? energy is what this is all about.. why the hell would the machines go to all that trouble to get energy only to piss it all away by burning all the oxygen.. that's just so illogical.

Right. Exactly.

Quote:

I bend my spoon, u bent my spoon

Hahaha.

Quote:

Maybe...just maybe....

Those are the key words. Its very slim.

As for them not feeling cold-

Trinity: "Temperature is dropping"

Let's put down two kinds of scenarios; one being the famous matrix-within-the-matrix theory, and the other being the one with the existence of only one matrix.

Let's start off with the second one. Considering that we already know that as the population of the matrix-virtual-world gets bigger and bigger, the probabilities of an anomaly to emerge gets bigger. We know that upon all test subjects, aprox. 99% accepts the program, and only 1% refuses it; a tiny part of that % which doesn’t accept the program is the anomaly, or; the One.
Well, if we think it deeply, then we come to the idea of it being necessary to reload the matrix in order to stop the probabilities to get bigger (as well as stopping the inevitability of the creation of AI inside of the matrix, which can't happen, otherwise there would be too many anomalies to control in too many matrix, infinite matrix), as well as to control that one anomaly and with its code reboot the matrix itself. We also know that all rebels are "hiding" in Zion, and that they could be considered as the 1% of all test subjects which don't accept the matrix [Neo is the 0.000001%(the tiny % of the 1% which doesn’t accept the matrix); the anomaly], so in other words, all of Zion's population are the 1% which refuse the matrix. Therefore, we come to the idea of it being necessary to destroy Zion in order to destroy all freed minds. (“Escalating probability of disaster” in the real world; or escalating personality of threat from the humans to the machines)
That's where the Architect and the Oracle gain importance into this matter. As the Matrix cycle begins, (for all of you who don't know, it starts on the year 1880 and ends on 2009) we know that Zion is rebuilt by every predecessor (the One) choosing 23 people from the matrix, (not from Zion) to this we sum the One and the Oracle, which all form the resistance. Concordantly, Zion's population grows each day, freeing more and more minds to join the resistance, and to keep them with hope and purpose, when the One dies, the Oracle foretells the prophesy to the rebels, saying that the One would eventually come back again, this is THE purpose for the rebels to go on, to carry on. And eventually the anomaly does show up, here is when the Oracle has to find it, control it, to guide it to his path, the one which finishes with the Architect in the source. He is supposed to choose the right door, which leads to the salvation of Zion, and the reboot of the matrix, and eventually the death of the One in some time on. This cycle, as we know, has happened 5 past times already, and Neo's is the sixth.
My point here is that, if the machines have to dig to find Zion, destroy it every time to eliminate and control the freed minds(or humans which don't accept the matrix), in order to then reload the matrix and start the cycle again....then wouldn't it be too much work for them to do this every time?

It is here where we pass to the second scenario, the one of the matrix-within-the-matrix theory. Let's call the first known matrix as the Alpha matrix, and the "real world" as the Beta matrix.
As I see it, it would be a much easier work for the machines to make the "real world" another matrix, another control, this way, the actual machines don't have to dig that much to find and destroy Zion, the only one's who would be doing this would be actual PROGRAMS inside of the "real world", inside the Beta matrix, therefore making it altogether another way of control, to keep those "freed minds" in a measure of control, those minds, as they have already waken up, it's illogical for them to don't accept the "real world" as they see, because it would be as to wake up from a dream and then wake up again from the "reality".

Now, aside from this, I support my theory with one mayor base:

- Neo’s transition from the “real world” to the train stain station in which he apparently got “stuck” after stopping 4 sentinels and got into a some sort of coma. This must have a “why”; it must have a reason, a universal explanation of CAUSALITY. What was the cause? Only the MWM would rationally explain that.

Now, many questions arise from the whole theory, which can be contradictable, but they have their own arguments and possible answers/or solutions;

Q: “Why not pull the plugs instead of sending sentinels?"
A: In final terms, because they (the machines) need to find the anomaly, and it is essential to reload the matrix, the anomaly needs to be controled. Another question arises from this fact;
Q: "Why not pull the plugs of the anomaly once found?"
A: Because they NEED IT to reload the matrix. (also, the conversation of the Architect with Neo is essential, cuz’ the process has to be with at least a piece of choice from the individual) If they don't send the sentinels, what do you think would happen next? Many things would inevitably happen:

a) the rebels would have all of their time to free every mind on the matrix, one by one. Now if in fact there is a matrix outside of the known matrix, why not pull the plugs to eliminate the rebels and the One? : Because they need to reload the matrix with the ONE'S PRIME CODE (I will talk about this later here:*) inside of him, they need to reboot the matrix and start the cycle again; so in conclusion, they need every people who is involved in the PATH OF THE ONE (“which is made by THE PATH OF THE MANY”- Enter the Matrix -)
b) ANOTHER INTERGRAL ANOMALY would emerge. So, they need to control the anomaly that emerges from the mathematical error in the matrix, which gets bigger (the probabilities of an anomaly to emerge) as the population of the matrix grows.
c) They also need to reload the matrix in order to stop the actual creation of AI inside of the matrix, because that would make infinite layers matrix's one inside the other and would bring up too many anomalies to control, would be out of control.
Now, how do they (the machines) get the anomaly to insert his prime code and reload the matrix? By leading him to the source. Why did Neo (in this case) arrived to the source? By going to the Oracle. Why did he go to the Oracle? Because Zion was about to get destroyed, they have limited time in their hands, if not, they would take the time to free everyone's mind one by one; if they hadn't seen the last transmission from the Osiris, and wouldn't be aware of the danger that threatens Zion, they would be taking their time. The Oracle lead them to the Keymaker, the Keymaker lead them to the Source, the source lead Neo to the Architect, the Architect lead Neo to the choice of the two doors. It is the process that NEEDS to be executed in order to RELOAD the matrix and control the minds which reject the matrix (rebels and the One)

Now this huge process leads us to square one, where it is very possible of both theories to be correct or wrong, it could be a single matrix, or a matrix within a matrix....

But, which of both of them is easier for the machines to execute? And makes the ONE MAYOR BASE I support my theory on? (Neo being stuck inside the train station)....yes.... you can answer it yourself....MWM THEORY....

If the machines make another matrix outside of the know matrix, then the one's who have to dig to find Zion, to do the one after one pain in the ass job, are PROGRAMS....programs inside of a matrix, a system of control, as well as a safer system of control for the machines outside the 2 matrix’s (if there are machines outside it).
Also, the transition of Neo’s mind to the train station, or to jack in to the “matrix” (or to a place between the Alpha world and the Beta one) without being plugged in, would only by explained by the fact that the Architect, the Oracle, the Merovingian or the Train man could have manipulated his mind from the Beta world to the Alpha one. (They are programs, so, they have that power) It is the only way to rationally explain it.






* I got another theory referring to Neo's importance in the matrix:
I believe that when the Architect stated that he was frustrated by failure when trying to make a stable matrix, he said that maybe he needed a "lesser mind". This makes me think that maybe he NEEDS to use Neo's mind. Let me explain myself; He inserts the PRIME PROGRAM OR CODE of the matrix in him, he uses his mind and the code to "reflect" the reality of the matrix to all the other minds inside the system, thus this way a imperfect mind reflects like a mirror the reality and he serves as a "FILTER" for everyone's perception of the illusion world. If this were to be true, then Neo is UNDOUBTLY NEEDED to RELOAD and "REFLECT" the matrix in an "imperfect"(or less perfect mind) way, thus making it possible for a computer generated world to be stable and going on.

GIVE FEEDBACK, COMMENT, GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS ON ALL THIS.
PIUKNEO.

I pretty much agree with your views...for me...accepting Zion and the Machine city as another matrix worlds (similar to the Trainman's world) made a lot of sense...I doesnt make sense that Neo suddenly got telekinetic power in the real world...he is more powerful than Yoda

I mentioned in other thread about the spoon that the Kid passed to Neo in Reloaded. Unfortunately, Neo still doesnt understand that there is NO SPOON...even in Zion!

If Revolutions is supposed to be closure for the trilogy, then in my opinion it has failed...one example is the last scene in the movie...it was set in the Matrix with Oracle, Seraph, Sati and the Architect...what happen to Zion (after the Matrix "rebooted")? In my opinion, if the theme of the movie is about the struggle of humanity to exist, that should have been shown in the last scene of movie.