»Fate VS Choice , for only the open minded people«

I feel like sometimes when something bad happens to me its the cause of what effect?

Yes but time can not be infinite for the theory to work..
what is it that causes(Sorry i use the no no word) the time to flow from past to present to future? The answer is a series of physical events. Cause and effect!

I have'nt read this theory your talking about(but i think i will now), but it seems to me that for the theory to work, the phenomena of time has to be considerd as an illusion just to describe our existens.

huh...thats new.

By that i mean there can not be such a thing as infinite time.. but you would have to say there is no time..

and i quote it again...

"past, present and future are only illusions, however persistent."
Albert Einstein

In order to understand his theory you will need to read and understand Hume's theory on causation. It does not appear that you understand why causation as we understand it does not have any link to reason.

Cause is a term used to explain the link between one event and another. Yet there is no reason to say that one term caused another at all. Unless it is something which is known by instinct there seems to be no way we can know that any one event causes any other.

Quote:

Cause is a term used to explain the link between one event and another. Yet there is no reason to say that one term caused another at all. Unless it is something which is known by instinct there seems to be no way we can know that any one event causes any other.

That may be, but it seems to me that you are missing my point.. Because time is by its nature a series of cause and effect..
The time phenomenon is is explaind simply by Time = matters motion throug space...
Is'nt it then unlogical to use time as an one of the arguments in a causation theory?

What has time got to do with cause? Like I said day follows night in a temporal sequence, but we would not say that night CAUSES day would we? If I drop a ball we do not say that opening of a hand causes a ball to fall. - We attribute it to the force of gravity.

Time is different from causation and I'm sorry, but English-speaking or not you are going to have to be a lot clearer to persuade me they are linked!

Im not trying to disprove or convince you..in a matter of fact you have made me curious to look into it.
Im simply arguing that you can not use time as an factor to prove causation... because time is explaind by cause and effect..
because if there are no corralation between cause and effect, time cannot be true

Fatpie42 wrote:

Strangely enough Russell believes in determinism because he claims that the whole of time is a uniformity. He claims it should be possible to find a function (an equation like speed=distance/time) for the whole of time, but that you could only work out what it was if you could actually go outside of time and look in. I think that such a view comes too close to believing in causes to be a true Humean view.

Fatpie42 wrote:

What has time got to do with cause? Like I said day follows night in a temporal sequence, but we would not say that night CAUSES day would we? If I drop a ball we do not say that opening of a hand causes a ball to fall. - We attribute it to the force of gravity. Time is different from causation and I'm sorry, but English-speaking or not you are going to have to be a lot clearer to persuade me they are linked!

once again

A concept of time need not require a concept of causes. The whole point is that cause and effect are simply one action happening after another. Simply a temporal sequence.

Russell's argument takes the whole of time to be a uniformity ie. every event that ever happens. For him the whole sequence of time from beginning to end (if there IS a beginning or end) is one unformity which could (in principle, not in practice) be understood as a 'function' (as in the mathematical term).

I'm not sure your view about time does anything to insist on the existence of causes or to disprove Russell.

So, you say, Vibers, that there is a time because of cause and effects? That's quite strange to me.

Why not consider time as a part of space, as Einstein, who you are citing, did? That time is just another dimension of space - it is a field in which the events may occur ... similarly to space, that may be considered as a field, where the events occur. The time and space seems to be independent on the events in it, (however, big amount of matter can be related to some deformations of time-space). So, I can't see a reason why some event in a time would *cause* the time to flow. It would be like saying that particular program *causes* computer to run!

Although, you may switch on computer in order to run the program ... and that make me think that the idea of causation is SO elusive ... like the think with hen and egg - one is the cause of the other and it seems to be a circle, due to the same words that are used. But it is a spiral instead -> the hens and eggs are no the same, atlhough the words do not change.

I'm not particularly good at understanding Einstein, but correct me if I am wrong about the following.

Events follow each other in a temporal sequence. This means there must be a stretch of events in that sequence which occur. This means that, presuming that the sequence remains consistent, the all the events follow a certain pattern which could be referred to as a uniformity.

I presume that since time is not a constant it might be said that the idea of the stretch of time being a uniformity may be contestable.

first sorry for my language but when i type so fast i miss so many things ..

I think the W.Brothers showed us thier very own theory about the FATE and CHOICE , by using the ORACLE and the ARC room that full of TV screens.

can you plz hear my Theory that i had made based on the movie ?

The TV screens are the POSSIBLE CHOICES that the ARC (god and still not god in the movie i know) already knows (as the machine can predect the future by looking to the ALL possible facts , calculate them and the result are few possible INDEED actions) ...

Each TV sceen showed a possible Reaction for NEO , and when the CAM takes us through a TV SCREEN to the room again that still has so many TV screens means that NEO did take this choice which lead him INTO A PATH to Multiply choices again (another TV SCREENS).

Another prove for that ... the TV screens showed some parts of NEO's life...Showed PAST (M1 and some sences of his childhood) and showed the PRESENT (Trin fighting the Agent) , and Showed ONLY from the future , the sence when TRIN was falling .. didnt show any part of the future wether its from M3 or Trin hitting the car and die,,why ?

Consider the Possible choices as 0,99999999... (based on a part of a member's theory here) ... each 9 digit equal a possible choice , the possible choices for each situation is ENDLESS just like the 0,999999999...

its like .. when u hear a bad news u could cry,b upset,put ur hand on ur head,fall on the floor,scream,,,,,etc , Machines STUDIED the human bodies and its reactions ,, MACHINE (consider it as GOD) already knows the possible choices we can take for each situation ( as they calculated the first million 999999999 for example) and they PRE-MADE a path for each choice in these POSSIBLE CHOICES, each path by its self take u to another multiply choices (another 0,9999999....)

So ...coz the ARC didnt really understand the Emotional effect on the human mind and its effect , and becoz NEO was the first ONE who experienced LOVE , the ARC. didnt really understand all of the POSSIBLE choices neo could do .. becoz they hadnt experienced it with any ONE B4 , thats why the TV screens didnt display beyond that moment , coz they didnt WRITE a path for the CHOICE neo chosed .

My theory about the real life FATE,CHOICE argue is ... if computers Studied us in the movie (as it more smarter than humans) and it could count billions of possibilities choices for each situation we take and then CREAT a path for it in order to keep us under control with no SUPRISES , then god is the one who CREATED US .. he can already know more than jsut a billion possible choice for each situtaion...i believe that GOD already know the choices we going to have...and FATE is the paths he already CREATED for each choice that also lead to MULTIPLY choices too and so on ...

as MERV said about the CHOICE...its really cool...coz my theory is based on the IDEA that there is a FATE which is pre-made and controls us, and at the same time we have the power to chose our fate and the power of CHOICE...its like a play ground which has so many toys , we have the power to chose which TOY we want to play with, the owner of this PLAY GROUND knows each toy and what we r going to do with it , so we r doing what we really want..but at the same time that OWNER controls us,coz its all in his PLAY GROUND which means we r not free and the choices we have he is the one who offered them to us ... Compare it to the GOD and US ... interesting ?

Ah, so the matrix considers the branching universe to be the best. Each screen is a possible universe. The camera zooms into the screen showing THIS universe. The architect can't see past choices, he just guesses which one is best. As such he is a bit like Popper's super scientist, while the oracle is more like Laplace's demon who knows everything.

Fatpie42 wrote:

I'm not particularly good at understanding Einstein, but correct me if I am wrong about the following. Events follow each other in a temporal sequence. This means there must be a stretch of events in that sequence which occur. This means that, presuming that the sequence remains consistent, the all the events follow a certain pattern which could be referred to as a uniformity. I presume that since time is not a constant it might be said that the idea of the stretch of time being a uniformity may be contestable.

I think understanding Einstein isn't so easy and I am not an expert too ...

What I wanted to say was that as there are the objects placed in space and have certain dimensions, the same objects are also "placed" in time and occupy there certain stretch. Following this analogy, the objects are placed in certain patterns - like you have table and chairs around - but there isn't any reason to presume any other connection between these objects other that in human mind. So it should be with space, if it is considered as another dimension simimilar to space. The events may occur in certain pattern - like if you kick the chair, it fell in the same direction - but is there any connection? Maybe. As you can put together table with chair by the use of nails, the events may be connected in a similar way - by energy because it is the energy, that connects your leg with the chair in time as the nails connects the table with chair.

Rather strange analogy isn't it? And I really don't know what would Einstein said to it.

So, what object makes an object is energy and a pattern in which it is structured in space and time. Since the structure seems to be arbitrary, I don't see the uniformity there too.

But since I am getting asleep, it is possible that there is also no sence in this post. Consider that too.

I now think there is no choice, there is only fate.
Choice is just the way we experience it as humans. We think we make the choice; well we do, but it is pre-determined what the choice is going to be.

The entire Universe is a huge source of energy.
One half of it is positive, the other half is negative. The entire Universe is at balance.

We (as on earth) are just a miniscule energy-form that is within this great source of energy.

We are just energy moving along. We go with the flow, we have NO choice.

Each one of us has a soul, which is part of the Universal energy. We share one consiousness. Everybody affects everybody; there is no God, we are alltogether god on our planet.

Each one of us has a share of negative energy (our dark side) and positive energy. Just try to analyze yourself honestly, you will notice that your personality will have contradictive elements.

People like Jezus and Ghandi were just people with an overdose of positive energy in their souls. Jezus might have 99,99% positive energy or maybe even a 100%.

Everything has a balance. For every positive there is a negative, which brings us back to the Ying-Yang principle.
The earth is just a small part of the Universe, so it might be unbalanced. I think there is more negative than positive energy on this earth.

So we are just a flow of energy; nothing can stop it; we are what we are; we have a fate; we have no choices.

Choice is the effect of a cause or multiple causes.
What is cause? After an event has been an effect, it becomes a cause. After you make a choice (effect), this very same choice becomes a cause for the next events in your life.

It's a link in the chain as the Merovingian says it:

cause --> effect --> cause --> effect --> cause --> effect

Your genectics and the way you were raised by your parents determine how you will make your choices in your life. The choices you make will lead you to experience things. These experiences will determine your future choices. So again: there is no choice, only action - reaction, cause - effect, fate!

How many times do I have to say it. There is no such thing as a cause.

There are only uniformities and there is no way to be 'certain' that those uniformities will continue to be uniform in the future.

Fate and choice can coexist because all fate means is that I will do what I will do. You don't think the past can change do you? There is only one past and that is the one that just happened. In the same way, you cannot change the future. There is only one future and that is the one you are about to choose.

You can say it as many times as you like.

I like to interpret it on another way.

We alltogether live like the sun and the moon. We are energy which flows at the highest precision. Every event and every choice is pre-determined.

As I have already said. Chance does not have to exist in order for the future to be predetermined. The fact is that there is no 'scientific' reason why the future should be predetermined and certainly no reason to do with "cause and effect".

And they're all far too long. So I'm not going to read the whole thing. So there. (blows raspberry) Fate and Choice, Omniscient Being and Free Will, it's essentially the same thing. If you want to read another long thread in the same vein, matrix-explained.com... (if anyone already posted this, sorry for the redundancy.)
It's inevitable: nobody's going to make a point that everyone agrees with, and the discussion is going to go in circles. So, without letting myself get too dizzy I just wanted to say:

Fatpie42 wrote:

Fate and choice can coexist because all fate means is that I will do what I will do. You don't think the past can change do you? There is only one past and that is the one that just happened. In the same way, you cannot change the future. There is only one future and that is the one you are about to choose.

I like that. I like to look at it this way:

---
A painter paints a portrait, and as he paints, he watches his brush make each loving stroke across the canvas. He sees the portrait brush stroke by careful brush stroke. He sees it take form in time; he sees each stroke as it happens.

An art lover views the same portrait, now finished. She sees all the brush strokes, individually. She sees each brush stroke as part of the whole portrait. She sees the entire portrait as one complete picture, made up of thousands of careful brush strokes. She marvels at its beauty, because it took time to create the whole from the sum of its parts; as she looks at the portrait, she is outside of the time it took to make it.
---

We, who exist in 'time,' are the painters of the universe, each of our choices being another stroke of the brush.

To an 'omniscient being,' someone who exists hypothetically outside 'time,' the painting is complete, all the choices, to that being's view, already made.

In this model, fate is the image of the finished universe, which we can sometimes glimpse bits of, but only a so-called 'omniscient being' can see completely. The omniscient being and fate can coexist with choice and free will without difficulty and without contradiction. What do you think?

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

We alltogether live like the sun and the moon. We are energy which flows at the highest precision. Every event and every choice is pre-determined.

I like this, too! Astrology is a curiously accurate science, when applied properly (and an abominable failure when applied improperly!) The idea that I get from it, though, is this: all the energies that each body in the universe emanates resonate with and bounce off each other in various ways; many of those energies have discernible patterns, and when observed with certain astrologically significant features, can even make certain things predictable.

Here, our choices can either be the cause or the effect of the energies that surround us. Either way, there is no escaping the effect that these energies have on our lives, individually as well as universally. You might say that fate, in this view, is the sum of these energies, which our choices help shape and guide, and which also help shape and guide our choices.

It's a Mystery. No doubt about it. But it sure is fun!

annaerullo wrote:

It's a Mystery. No doubt about it. But it sure is fun!

Not so fun when you are trying to write a philosophy essay on it. Why do you think I'm always here - I'm bored out of my skull! Thankfully I've finished that essay now - *phew*

Fatpie42 wrote:

Not so fun when you are trying to write a philosophy essay on it. Why do you think I'm always here - I'm bored out of my skull! Thankfully I've finished that essay now - *phew*

Yeah, that's a good point and a problem for me too ... it's easy to comment but quite hard to put all the comments together in a meaningful way.
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Just an idea that I get while reading this thread. It seem to me we are all mixing two things that are probably a bit different.

1/ The cause and effect in a physical sence (in natural sciences), like that gravity is the cause of falling down on road or that pressing a key A is the cause of appearing the letter A on my screen. The symbol for this relation is matter and physical world. I think, this is closer to the meaning of the word "cause" than the other view.

2/ The cause of human behaviour that is somehow independent on instincts and depends on thinking and understanding the information. This is the cause in more psychological or social sence and this only can be matter of choice, unlike the physical causes. The symbol for this relation is soul and psychical world and I think the word "karma" is better to use here.

I think, in matrix Merovingian represents the first approach, while Oracle the second one and they are not the same. They fight one against another precisly due the same difference in their world views as is probably the reason why the agreement on this theread cannot be achieved so easily. I think these two points of view aren't in contradiction, they are complementary - two sides of the same coin.


As Annaerullo or Mobil Ave Neo said, there is the way of escape out of this at the first-sight apparent contradiction, either in looking at it from outside and realizing the contradiction without defending or offending any of the two views, or by treating it as the two ways of experiencing the same phenomenon, and call it for instance energy.

It is like the duality of particle-wave in physics. Both points of view are relevant and say something about the nature of the universe, but depending on the type experiment, substance behave either as particle or as a wave.

So, at least to me, the connection in between those appearances is the most important thing, like the connection between body and mind. Obviously there have to be some, but its nature seems to be hidden to us so far.

Look also at my post at the top of the second page of this thread for some reference.