»Fate VS Choice , for only the open minded people«

First of all i wanna say what im gonna write is not againts any religion , i respect all the religions and all the belifs ,. but sometimes we fall in the Rabbid hall,hope you join me with an open mind.

this related to the Matrix philosophy by a somehow..just go with me...lets see the Facts we have...

1 - God is the most powerful thing exist that CONTROL US.

2 - in all of our Religions and most of our belifs (as human in general) we had the word THE ONE , which is about a SAVIOR or JESUS,,,,etc that will come at the end of time to fight forus and unite us,etc....

3 - from 1 and 2 (Considering our religions are true in the first place and not a human pre-made) that the GOD's words must be all TRUE and that when he talked about THE ONE then it gotta happen....

from 1,2 and 3 we can realize that there is a FATE , fate is a path that is already was written and made by god and we r walking in it without we realize , THE ONE MUST COME and this what makes it a FATE , becoz if there wasnt a fate and we creat our fate by our selves then maybe the BAD guys b stronger and kill THE ONE ,which something the god dont want to happen.

so the IDEA that there must be a ONE and must WIN at the end leads us to the fact that there is a FATE ,,,,right ? sound logical ? okay...but what about the CHOICE ?

in the reality or even in the MATRIX , CHOICES (even if the GOD can know them from the start) means that we have the POWER to change things ..we have the power to END and KILL our selves or leave it alive , the PROBLEM is choice ...but if there is a FATE , then it means that EVERY ONE of us have a purpose for its existnce, was meant to be , but what if someone have a PURPOSE of living and he realized it..but to prove the oposite (that there is no FATE) he killed him self..
He didnt do his purpose...the path is Incomplete,how come it will leads to the same end ?

take NEO for example...what if he IN THE VERY BEGENING killed him self or let SMITH convert him in Reloaded ? doesnt matter what the end will be , it wont be the same and its a FACT,..this means that we can change the fate ? that we have a CHOICE for real ? or maybe there is no fate and the problem is only CHOICE ?

What do you believe in ...you are the holder of your Future and your very own existance ...or you are a slave to your fate tthat you are trying to realize ? to me ...honestly..i dont know the answer..becoz when i think about it seperated , i find the 2 answers are so Logical...sometimes i feel that we have to BELIEVE..that we dont have to KNOW (the end of revolution) , that all what we have to do is to BELIEVE , and sometimes i feel the PROBLEM IS CHOICE..and every decision we take leads to a door with a totaly different path..and every path leads to many other paths depends on our choices..with no pre-made END...what do u think ?

Hrmmmm, should I breath or not. If I don't breath I die and who knows what I might accomplish in the future. Fate is what happens with our lives, our lifes are uncertain and aren't preordained. The smallest things can alter a persons life, maybe someone bumps into you one day as you're going off to buy a lottery ticket. Angered, you don't end up buying it or choose random numbers in your anger, but if that guy didn't bump you, you could've picked the right numbers and become a millionaire. Fate is sketchy and easily changed, it could be preordained but the feebleness of it makes it seem so impossible. The only thing that bind's us is the will to make money, abide laws and live the conventional life.

i said the 2 answers are logical....what u said is okay logical and i can agree with .. but what u said means that there is no THE ONE .. that not nessecary the GOOD will beat the BAD. fate makes us feel safe that WE ( good people) will win at the end ..all what we have to do is to belive ine god and fight the Evil...

But if there is no fate..if there is no Pre-made ENDING to our life..then anything is possible as u said ..then Evil can win or GOD can win ...

If there is a pre-made Ending..then why SATAN is still fighting ? dont he know the FATE cant b change and that the god will WIN at the end ? or he knows something else ? knows that FATE CAN BE BROKEN ?

and if this is true then what makes you think you have a purpose ? u might waste ur life in BULLSHIT not realizing ur reason

Well that's it! Hitler could've taken over the world, but he was a bullshit tactition and failed on this front. If Hitlers parents never had him (Hitler was the only child of many to survive birth, I think about 7 babies befor him died during birth) then thousands of innocents wouldn't have died and Hungarians (like myself) and many other effected countires wouldn't have been as likely to immigrate. The way to look at it is, to make something happy out of something sad. Like for instance, if my family never immigrated, I could be living a shit life in ghetto Hungary, but because of Hitler, many lives have been improved (don't get me wrong, I mourn for the 6 million plus lost.) This is indeed a selfish way of seeing things, but it's also a way of making good things out of bad things eventually forgeting the bad things. Evil does exist, but is a formula of certain things. Hitler was evil because he was unscrupulous, rascist and many things effected him to become what he was. Bush is also evil, stupid and untactful. But evil people are likely not be self-aware of their evilness. If there is a One, the one would mostly be like people like Ghandi, fighter for freedom and Che Guevara, a strong fighter for the poor and carer for the sick (worked in lepa camps in his early career.) People who fight for freedom are the Ones, Ghandi is the perfect example as he commited action with out violence.
Who says we are not currently under the power of an evil empire. Our countries could be twirling in a slow demise as the poor get poorer and the rich get richer and the comfortables get too comfortable and lazy.

People live their lives as they see fit, others might see it as wasting, but if someone is content and happy, isn't that what really matters in the end? Ofcourse if this is happy for the wrong reasons then it does matter.
But I'm sure many people who could have accomplished great things wasted their talents, but why should it matter. The talent could have been killing, so some of these talents could start more chain effects changing many lives as this ever going thing we call fate screws us over again and again.

I don't think there a pre-made ending but there is an idea how should such ending look like. Everyone conscious of himself and the world around is able to understand it, find it and reason it for himself and this is the thing that separes the good from the bad. Bad is evil because it do not consider something or do not see something and that's why even the bad guy feels he do a good to the others.

The fate is what would happen to me if I would follow certain rules that were there set for me by someone/something else. The choice is the ability not to follow these rules at the point where it is possible. It is the ability to find the loopholes within the fate and the courage to follow them. This is the rabbit's loophole.

What distinguished good from evil is endurance and ability to see the truth (reality, the world around). The good one knows which choice leads to the desired idea of good and is brave enough to choose it when the moment of choice appears.

And finally the good should be more enduring then evil. The weapon of good it reality itself - if it shows it to the evil, evil realizes that it is wrong and can't no longer stick to its belief because it is wrong. The weapon of good is the mirror because in mirror good is the same as it thinks it is ("know thyself") while evil appears to himself in the mirror differently than it thinks it is and should face the fact it is wrong.

The problem is not a choice but the ability to recognize the choice and the ability to recognize the real, to see the truth. And most of all, the problem is to act according to what one realizes.

Check also my post here, there it is connected a bit to the world of matrix:
matrix-explained.com...

First to hungarian kid .... You still didnt get me ... every little tiny thing effect on another , like a snow ball , start so tiny and be bigger every time .. but what makes you think that the Born of Hitler isnt a fate ? maybe Every little TINY thing happend is pre-made .... maybe the Choice you take and think its a CHOICE is already pre-made and it was written that u MUST chose this...how can you tell ? maybe what you are going to reply me is Meant to be too ...

and about u Titek ... im with you...but still my question is without an answer.. you say you believe the END isnt a pre-made ....all of your talking about the GOOD and BAD i agree with u ...but still the question..what makes you sure the GOOD will win at last ?

ghandi and all of thee fighters are not ONES...they are fighters for the humanity..we can Consider them as MORPHUES...people prepare the ONE to come out..the Savior will be from GOD like JESUS ..this is what i mean with THE ONE..

Let's answer to your question like this, I hope you get me right:

Architect: "Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness."

a discussion of fate vs choice is pretty moot, since we don't have the ability to see how outcomes would change.

ask that question again when time travel has been discovered.

with all respect but i think this is why PHILOSOPHY is all about ! , its MOOT to talk about god and what is it coz we cant see him , we cant discuss about million of things like Am i awake or sleeping coz Scientifcly u cant TELL .

So maybe (after a very long time of thinking) i got to the answer that...Philosophy is made to talk about the things with DOUBT and MOOT as u call it ! ...

i refuse to take part in any more of your conversations.

becoz U'r 733t spe4k is r3tarded, and i don't want to catch it in case you're contagious.

oh no ...what have i done....by the way..what is 733t spe4k is r3tarded ? i always believed that im 101c Spe32k r2tarded !

whatever...i respect all the opinions coz im not claiming im 100% , but to prove me wrong i'd like to have a LOGICALY conversation , thats it ...but Answers that Showing off and stuff i find it hard to respect..sorry..c ya

yes i believe this is true, but i really like to know ur opinion and explination for it ?

and oh yeah b4 i forgot ... can we make the religion Involve ? (with all respect) ... i think in all the religions GOD ask us to blindly believe in him and that to pray fr him whenever we need him ... if GOD will interact with us and help us ..this means there is no FATE ?

I mean...you can understand it the 2 meanings this is what makes it hard,becoz as i said the both answers are logicaly accepted... now..what if u r in a problem and u kept praying for god to help u ? what if he helped u ... This can mean that this was pre-written that u will ask for his help and that he will help u ..or maybe its just RANDOM , things effecting on others by a random way... and if this is it then there is nothing called SIGNS to guide us ...

A friend of mine from a very long time told me ..that there is a FATE .. that there is a Multiply pre-made PATHS for each one of us , but we have the power to FOLLOW any path we want or even creat our new path...but usual these paths the GOD made it for us r the best for us and seek the MAX-goodnes....and the SIGNS are tools to keep reminding us about the pre-made (best) paths we have .. but maybe becoz as u said HOPE IS OUR GREATEST WEAK AND POWER then we hope so blindly that we can chose a better thing for our selves

Likemy case with my gf...all the signs show me that we cant b back for example..but maybe becoz HOPE is my (as human) greatest Weakness i still have this Un reasonably HOPE that we can b together..although deep inside me i know its meant to b apart...what do u think ?

Aladdinamerican -

Quote:

but Answers that Showing off and stuff i find it hard to respect..sorry..c ya

Seems like Grendelves feels exactly the same as you do...

Talking about the pot calling the kettle black, oh dear, was I showing off too?

Just dropping in to state that I agree with the Merovingian; "There is one real truth: Causality. Action, Reaction. Cause & Effect".

Every incident and event in nature is the eventuality of another. The produce of a separate event. While choice is not completely nullified (choice still leading to the individual development of singular personalities), decisions are in fact 'reactions'. The nature of choices are sculpted by the manner with which society and reality sculpts the individual.

I think it comes down to faith.

I agree with you , for example , something happend that effect on a woman health that leads to her death , that makes her husband do something which also leads to things and make him effect the people around him including him self too ,, i understand this theory , but do u think GOD or whoever had something in his mind like for example a SPECIFIC EVENT so he (as fate) make this EVENT happen by a series of actions that leads him to do an Reaction leads to this Desired Event at the end ? and could this chain be broken ?

you know..maybe all what we r writing right now was desired and maybe not..

Well something someone may post will make you wanna reply but something else might stop you. It's all just one giant formula and fate is the eventual climax of this ever increasing formula. The ultimate fate of all humans is death. If there is a god or not controlling this formula, is hardly comprehendable since we have no actual knowledge of 'god.' If we just speculate from what people have written (e.g. the bible) we will have a long conversation but no plausible conclusion because in the end none of us know.

it comes down to faith, FAITH. do you have faith?

I think the concept of fate implies that there is a right and wrong way to live one's life, but in fact there is no right or wrong path, only choices that effect other choices that effect other choices, and so on. I agree with AzarN in that the only thing that is certain is causality and the fact that no effect is greater than its cause. Yes, an omniscient being can see the future, but that does not necessarily mean that they influence it. It's like a person standing over an ant hill. The ants are only aware of what they are doing at that specific moment in their own little world, but the person standing over them can see what they are doing and so much more.

Im sorry to say i dont beleive that. I think that we need faith to see that God is in controll and theres nothing to worry about.

Of course it all boils down to one's beliefs. I like to think I'm in control of my own life, but it may or may not be that I am.

Good point.

Destiny can be calculated. Choice is an illusion. There is only action and subsequent reaction. There is no God. The nature of the Universe is sculpted by a natural balance i.e Karma.

AzarN --> Raised a strict catholic but after seeing The Matrix trilogy and actually thinking about it for 10 minutes suddenly came to realisation that it's all a load of crap.







...well thats my opinion anyway...

everybody is allowed there own oppion.

Aladdinamerican wrote:

i think in all the religions GOD ask us to blindly believe in him and that to pray fr him whenever we need him ... if GOD will interact with us and help us ..this means there is no FATE ?

Believe but not blindly! You should be aware of your doing to be able to do it right. And personally, I think it is pretty hard to believe, if there are more religions than one ...

I think it is in buddhism, where it is said something like ignorance is a sin (and leads to the evil doings). You have different paths to the same mountain (goal) which is enlightment. One of these paths is to believe and follow what religion says to you. That is to follow the best, pre-written path, as you say. It is like to stick to the rules if you don't know the other way or do not dare to step outside this way. It is like following the sign-posts. But there may be the shorter ways ...

Another path is the path of wisdom. To doubt and prove your believes in order to believe in them in informed way.

Another comment on your statement above ... do not believe blindly and just wait. Help yourself and God will help you. This is the hope, I was talking about before. There is an element of action in belief, as I believe.

Once you come along a choice, you must do something: choose this or that or choose not to choose - a zero or trivial choice, so to speak. But when you are ignoring the choices often, you are slowly becoming a slave, because after some time, you get use to it and others too: choices are no longer offered to you (or you don't see them as choices) and you may more easily believe in fate.

Aladdinamerican wrote:

A friend of mine from a very long time told me ..that there is a FATE .. that there is a Multiply pre-made PATHS for each one of us , but we have the power to FOLLOW any path we want or even creat our new path...but usual these paths the GOD made it for us r the best for us and seek the MAX-goodnes....and the SIGNS are tools to keep reminding us about the pre-made (best) paths we have .. but maybe becoz as u said HOPE IS OUR GREATEST WEAK AND POWER then we hope so blindly that we can chose a better thing for our selves

There may possibly be the paths created by God but there are certainly the paths, made by other people. And this is another argument against blind-following the path you are by a chance walking on. You should see the path: where it is coming from and where it may possibly leads and if there is someone who made it and what is his benefit, because walking the path, you act in the favor of its creator. If you follow the so called God-made path, you are supporting God and you may attract other people to do so. If you follow the state-created path, you are strenghtening the state and so on.

So, to recognize the right path for you is the crucial thing.

And, creating your own path is possible but quite hard. Once the path is there, it is much easier to follow. .... Wide is the highway to hell

Aladdinamerican wrote:

Likemy case with my gf...all the signs show me that we cant b back for example..but maybe becoz HOPE is my (as human) greatest Weakness i still have this Un reasonably HOPE that we can b together..although deep inside me i know its meant to b apart...what do u think ?

What you need is an action. Without cause, there is no effect.

Btw. I also dislike your language, especially if my native language is czech ... and I think clarity is important ... for understanding, because without understanding and speaking known language, no one is going to listen ...