»The things you see in the matrix are not what they represent«

OK, couldn't think of a more concise title for this theory, so there you go.

I've seen a number of questions such as;

How did Smith come back when Neo Killed him?
Which of the Smiths in Revolutions is the Original / Real one / Oracle ?
Did the real smith defeat Neo?
Where does the keymaker go when the Humans exit the matrix?
Do all the smiths know the same thing / have shared knowledge?
What happens to humans when smith takes over them?
Etc. Etc.

And while I feel I can answer each of these, the answer is simply part of a theory which answers all of them - and a few more.

This post was inspired by a new member (Pos_user) post matrix-explained.com..., and was originally going to be a reply, but it turned out longer than I expected so It's getting it's own thread.

OK, enough waffle, on with the show...

Most of the questions above are based on a common (but flawed)premise - Agent Smith, the Keymaker etc. are all in the matrix. I propose for this theory, that they are not.

The Brothers even tell you as much in the film - "there is no spoon"

OK, for the skeptics, I'll start with a few basics.

The Cool looking Guy with the Sunglasses and the long coat is not Neo It is in fact a digital representation of Neo in the Matrix.

Neo's body and brain remain on board the Neb or wherever, while his "avatar" roams the digital green world.

When he goes to meet the Oracle and sits on the Bench, he's not actually sitting on the bench, his avatar is sitting on a digitally created bench - but is he sitting on the code?

I'd say not, the program that generates the bench is external to the matrix and is feeding the information into the matrix to create the bench.

So what about the Oracle? Is his avatar talking to the Oracle or it it talking to here Avatar? And if it's just here avatar, where is she?

So using this theory, lets look at some questions.

How did smith come back?

Neo simply killed his avatar, in effect breaking the connection from the matrix to the Smith program. How else would smith be able to "know what I was supposed to do".

Smith now external to the Matrix, does what the humans from Zion have been doing for years - hides out somewhere and hacks into the Matrix, and in doing so learns a few more tricks...

Which Smith is the real / original one?

None of them, they are all just avatars, online representations of the smith program. Smith is just accessing the matrix through multiple channels, which bring us onto...

What happens to humans when Smith takes over?

They are disconnected from the Matrix.

When smith takes over a human, he is in fact hacking into the comms channel from that humans pod to the matrix, he is simply taking over control of their Avatar.

It's a bit like opening multiple chat windows, there's still only one of you, but you can have multiple online presenses.

Think of it in video game terms, the character in the game is a representation of you, but it is never actually you. The (computer) opponents you fight are generated by the game software, but they never "hold" that software.

Where did the keymaker go between scenes
He disconnected from the matrix.

Humans do it, why not programs.

If we take the viewpoint that the matrix is simply a construct and not the actual code running that construct then each program must have a "home" system.

So in conclusion, the matrix is simply a huge digital chat room, nothing in it is really there in any way, it's just a digital representation of something elsewhere, be it a bench, a human or a program.

Any questions?

i'm not entirely sure that we can say that about objects not being code, but only representations.

i mean, when we see things in NeoVision™ aren't we seeing the actual code of the things he sees?

or (taking another look at it) when Neo sees things with his special eyes, is he seeing the code, or the representation? after all, he can see the bombs and assorted shit in that building where they go and see the Merovingian.

Good point. Thanks for raising it.

What I'm suggesting is that he's not seeing the program that makes the bombs, simply the instructions from the program to the matrix on how the bombs appear and behave.

The matrix code we see in "Neo vision" is always moving, more like a stream of data than actual code.

A bit like on some games you can set an option to show graphics as wireframe rather than textures. This shows how objects are constructed from polygons but shows nothing about the program generating those polygons.

The problem with suggesting that Smith is somewhere else just accessing his avatars is: where is Smith? Is Smith in the matrix?

It seems to me that when Smith splits open in the first movie he is still screaming after he has exploded. He isn't actually dead. It seems that at this point he is supposed to be deleted but instead he stays in the matrix.

Even so, I must admit that Smith is more than an image, but I think the image of Smith and his personality must be bound together somewhat, because otherwise why would Merovingian have to worry about being shot? Is this because he would then be code with no "shell", no avatar?

I find serious problems with the idea that all the Smiths being the same consciousness. The big hole is, as you've probably guessed, Bane. He's outside of the matrix wandering around unplugged. How would any of the other Smiths possibly know what Bane was doing? I suppose if Neo can link to the matrix while unplugged then why can't Smith, but Neo could only do that while unconscious in the real world....

I don't think I have ruined your theory by any means, but I think I have given you some things to think about. Please give me your opinion .

Quote:

I've seen a number of questions such as; How did Smith come back when Neo Killed him? Which of the Smiths in Revolutions is the Original / Real one / Oracle ? Did the real smith defeat Neo? Where does the keymaker go when the Humans exit the matrix? Do all the smiths know the same thing / have shared knowledge? What happens to humans when smith takes over them? Etc. Etc.

Regarding your questions you might find this interesting

Fatpie42 wrote:

The problem with suggesting that Smith is somewhere else just accessing his avatars is: where is Smith? Is Smith in the matrix?

Based on my hypothesis, for all we know he could be somewhere in the computers of the machine world, inside a digital hovercraft, hacking the matrix like a zionist.

Fatpie42 wrote:

The big hole is, as you've probably guessed, Bane.

Yeah, tell me about it, this seems to be the fly in the ointment of any theory. Like you suggested I'm happy (for now at least) to treat his situation in much the same way as Neo Unplugged and hope it goes away.

Pawnatron wrote:

think all of these questions have been discussed here....

Yeah, thanks, this was one of the threads that prompted this one.

It seems that the majority of oppinions in that thread start from the premise that "smith is in the matrix" and I beleive that's where the problems start.

I propose smith is outside the matrix hacking in, in exactly the same way that Neo is. That way, the question of "the original smith" is irrelevant, it's no different from "the original internet connection I used to access this site" or "my original Grand Theft Auto character".

Think of it like the Internet. To me this forum appears "on the internet" as do all its members, but in reality we are all external to the internet which is just a load of cables and routers. The only thing actually on the Internet on it is network traffic.

We use terms like "I'm on the Internet" to describe the fact that we're connected to it not actually inside it. I see the matrix in much the same way.

Fatpie42 wrote:

I find serious problems with the idea that all the Smiths being the same consciousness. The big hole is, as you've probably guessed, Bane. He's outside of the matrix wandering around unplugged. How would any of the other Smiths possibly know what Bane was doing? I suppose if Neo can link to the matrix while unplugged then why can't Smith, but Neo could only do that while unconscious in the real world....

you should have a serious problem with that... because Bane being unplugged while being a copy of Smith, personality and goal-wise. Is not part of the plugged-in Smith's "universal" consciousness.

Guys what r u talking about ? we already know and all of us Including u know and sure that the Matrix isnt the real thing and it have only the Codes that represnce the real thing out of the matrix..and that Smith's conncetion with the Matrix was disconnected and had to b deleted but he didnt and Connected again as you said from a hidden plac...

this is not the problem..the problem is ... what is smith ? smith is a Program (whatever he is , not the problem) , PROGRAM means he is in the REAL WORLD . or in the world where the MACHINES are in whatever its real or not ....

so where can a PROGRAM HIDE ? its not a program hide in the MATRIX any more like SMITH..its a program hide i the Machine world...

If the problem was that the MACHINEs wasnt able to detect the real program smith so Neo made Smith overwrite him and at the same time he is plugged into the Machine so the Machine can take over smith , then where smith was hiding ?

For humans they need this little Device to Plug into the Matrix , for the Programs they need the MACHINE to RUN THEM , if we heard what the ORACLE said , THEY BE DELETED OR REPLACED HAPPEND ALL THE TIME...
which means that there is Program/s that supervise this operation...the Deletion and Connceting the Program and Disconnecting it .. which program was sipervising on SMITH ? the real smith cant do this operation alone ..its impossible.

its like the Computer operatin system and its programs...Programs cant b run without the System, System is the thing that RUN them...any one to comment ?

before i forgot ... do u think what is the connection between MERV,the train man and SMITH ?

Merv and the Train man are both programs ...smith was going to take over the MATRIX and the real world...so it means that BOTH r in dangerous , Programs and Humans... why MERV and the Train man (who was his guy) wasnt afraid or really cared ? and if u took a look on what MERV said to trinity :

....AND WE WILL GIVE YOU BACK YOUR SAVIOR....

not our SAVIOR ! ,,, is that mean that MERV and his guys didnt need the help of NEO ? that there is no Dangrous on them in the first place ?

PLUS .. Merv know everything..its job is to know ..how didnt he know where SMITH is hiding to delete him ? or to INFORM on him ?

the only answer i see to this is ... Smith and MERV r working together..Merv disobyed the system just like Smith..thats why he doesnt consider him self apart of the system and no threate on him...and in RELOADED his wife said he saved 2 programs were unable to be Deleted...that he is for sure not with the system any more..b ut still a hideen program like SMITH

so....MERV saved SMITH from dying becoz HIS JOB IS TO KNOW , he knows the codes like CHEATS in game to save SMITH and hide him by the TRAIN MAN in a place like the neo was traped in .. no one can touch him there , becoz the TRAIN man is like the GOD THERE , and MERV plugs Smith in and out

what do u think ?

Sorry but I haven't a clue what you are on about. Lines like this are pretty much incomprehensible:

" its not a program hide in the MATRIX any more like SMITH..its a program hide i the Machine world... "

Could you try again? If you speak English as your first language and it is just bad grammar, it shouldn't be too hard. If English is not your first language then I apologise.

It seems to me that since the matrix is made of code and Smith is made of code there should be no reason why Smith cannot hide in the matrix. Maybe you could explain why you think that is wrong?

im not saying that Smith cant hide in the matrix... i say the SMITH cant hide inthe real world..which is the MACHINE world...becoz he needs someone or something to Plug him in and out , and im talking about the REAL smith, the program that is out side the MATIX ,becoz the SMITH body in the matrix is only Data and codes as you know that presens a real Program lays out side the matrix in the real world

Smith as he is seen in the matrix is a perception. Smith is "seen" as a person wearing a suit. However, like all the things perceived in the matrix, this is produced by code. Smiths code is part of the matrix code. He does not live outside the matrix and look in. He is as much a part of the matrix as a bird, tree, door, or wall.

Man , who said that SMITH isnt out side the Matrix ?

im not saying he is out the Matrix physicily ,SMITH in the matrix is what the PROGRAM SMITH looks like... the bird,tree,wind and all of these Codes are Programs and what we see in the Matrix are its Effect, we dont see the REAL PROGRAMs , but we see its effect..like that member said at first..

when u r playing ENTER THE MATRIX.. you are not actually that MAN in the game..but its ur effect in the game took this shape...if SMITH in the Matrix was this GUY in the game then the REAL PROGRAM SMITH is out side the MATRIX in the main frame or a somewhat network or something like that in the real world...hope u got what i mean or any one else do.

Rubbish. That's like saying that all the BOTS in deathmatch modes are on a computer somewhere playing just like any other player. They aren't! That's why they are AI!

If Smith isn't outside the matrix "physically", how is he outside it? Spirituallly? (before you start talking about golden sentinels, they have a reason to be there. I don't think anyone is about to say that everything in the matrix is floating around as a golden ghost as well)

Smith is program just like the trees are programs. If Smith has to be somewhere telling himself what to do then are trees somewhere outside the matrix telling themselves to grow? Give me a break. All that information is inside the matrix - there is no reason why it should be anywhere else.

i dont like to urge about silly things specialy when CLOSE-MIND share it ... i will make it more simple for u to understand

the HD and the Computer screan...what u see in the SCREEN isnt real its just the SHAPE the data took...what is real is inside the HD, destroy the screen and u will only lose an expensive LCD Screen,and still the program exist in the HD

got what i mean ? the BODY SMITH as we see in the movie is in the SCREAN (dont take it letraly) and the real PROGRAM is working out side the MATIX OF COURSE , working where the computer IS , and the COMPUTER is not in the MATRIX,uuuff

What ARE you talking about man?

Smith is INSIDE the Matrix...I-N-S-I-D-E...understand?

Why, oh why do you keep going on about being closed-minded?
Why do you persist?
If we were as closed-minded as you keep telling us, in everyone of the threads you've answered to, then my friend we wouldn't be here in the first place..
To absorb the Matrix your mind has to be open to many possibilities, so your statements are therefore null and void

Fatpie42 wrote:

Rubbish. That's like saying that all the BOTS in deathmatch modes are on a computer somewhere playing just like any other player. They aren't! That's why they are AI!

I don't know what he was saying, but that's not what I was saying, but lets take the analogy.

So you're playing your deathmatch and you kill one of these bots. What did you kill? The onscreen character or the program controlling it.

A program controls the bot but the bot doesn't contain the program.

I'm merely suggesting the same is true of the Matrix. The Matrix is a virtual environment where humans and programs interact.

The physical appearence of the avatars is simply that - with full sensory feedback I'll grant you, but they are only representations.

The oracle losing her "shell" could be seen as additional support to this. Without it she was a program with no way to interact with the matrix characters.

Or did you imagine she was floating around the matrix like some disembodied digital spirit?

Another Smith wrote:

What ARE you talking about man? Smith is INSIDE the Matrix...I-N-S-I-D-E...understand?

Are you not even willing to consider the possibility?

I'm hurt

Another Smith wrote:

Why do you persist?

Because I choose to.

Mark, I should have made myself a little clearer who I was posting to.

Aladdinamerican was the intended target...not you.

Quote:

Are you not even willing to consider the possibility? I'm hurt

I'm sorry!

Aa was bugging me with his comments in all his threads, and his use of 'silly speak', (I find it hard to understand what he's going on about!)

I don't think smith(or the other agents) is an avatar, he is probably an virus\trojan horse hunting subroutin, workin within the Matrix.. But since the Smith subroutin can't be turned off by any avatars, he normally just "respawns" if killed, so when Neo tried to kill the subroutine, he faild and just inserted a bug in the smith subroutine or just deleting some of his restrictions if you like, causing the Subroutine to go haywire..
As for the program Oracle, she wasn't supposed to shed her shell, but since the Actor who playd her died, the brothers were forced to come up with that part. But The oracle is probably more of an basic system funtion in the matrix, she is after all referd to as the mother of the matrix...

....And that would of course explain why suddenly Smith is suddenly abel to alter the weather and so fourth in revolution, because he's taken control over most key functions of the Matrix program..

All this stuff about the "screen" and the "hard drive" being two places seems to be a similar mistake to one being made in the "does a room exist when no one is in it?" thread.

There IS no screen in the matrix. There ARE no projections. What is seen on the screen is the code in a certain language, which contains all the data. What a person sees in the matrix is perceptions caused by electrical signals sent to their brain. Both of these are representations of what is actually in the matrix.

When you say that Smith as he is seen is in a different place from where he actually is then you are right. When Smith is seen he is IN YOUR HEAD! Just like when they look at his code he is 'on a screen'. But Smith is really in the matrix, not in people's heads....


Let's put it a bit simpler: (okay making a table doesn't work very well on this...)

Smith In The Matrix

Converted to: 'electrical signals'/'programming language'

Person/Screen

Smith seen as: Representation/Code


As a result no one ever actuallly sees the matrix as it ACTUALLY is because that would mean being able to see and understand computer data in its purest form. Instead what we see is the matrix as either a 'code language' or as the things it is representing to us. (For a better understanding of this look at George Berkeleys "Principles of Human Knowledge" - He's a bit crazy but he puts forwards this idea better than any other philosopher has.)

Fatpie42 wrote:

There IS no screen in the matrix. There ARE no projections. What is seen on the screen is the code in a certain language, which contains all the data. What a person sees in the matrix is perceptions caused by electrical signals sent to their brain. Both of these are representations of what is actually in the matrix.

Though it might not seem like it, we are actually in agreement here.

I think part of the confusion is caused by using terms deep rooted in people's preconceptions of what the matrix is.

Fatpie42 wrote:

When you say that Smith as he is seen is in a different place from where he actually is then you are right. When Smith is seen he is IN YOUR HEAD! Just like when they look at his code he is 'on a screen'. But Smith is really in the matrix, not in people's heads....

Ok, so to "adjust" my theory to suite your definitions.

When Neo Killed smith, his presence in the matrix remained but the matrix no longer sent the image of him to Neo's brain - or it sent an image of him exploding or whatever.

Does this suit you better?

Another smith wrote:

Quote:

If we were as closed-minded as you keep telling us, in everyone of the threads you've answered to, then my friend we wouldn't be here in the first place.. To absorb the Matrix your mind has to be open to many possibilities, so your statements are therefore null and void

Hey i feel the same way about that dude. He makes me angry.

If it means Smith is not some person outside of the matrix 'looking in' then that suits me fine