»Cain and Abel - Sons of Adam and Eve«

It is not a coincidence that the guys in Merv krib have the same names as Adam and Eves sons right?

...so what do the Cain and Abel from the Matrix have in common with Cain and Abel from the Bible

Very good question- i got no idea.

Except one. Merv was from a previous version of the matrix right? and his lackeys too right? So some sorta connection there maybe? To the first version maybe?

Persephone indicates that they "caused more problems than they solved". We know that they belonged to the perfect matrix that existed long ago, ie Eden. Perhaps the early agents were sympathetic to their human prisoners in some way, or perhaps they had some kind of infighting to gain the favour of god, ie mr spiky, the machine god. Certainly there would be some sort of sacrifice involved, as Cain slew Abel, but both seem very much alive. Certainly an interesting issue.

Werewolves aren't supposed to be dead, but Vampires are...

Maybe Abel is the vampire?

But in the movie Cain and Abel are bad guys...but isn't Abel a good guy or is it the other way around?

Abel was a good guy yes. Cain killed abel cause he was jelous. And God cursed Cain. God says Cain will restlessly wonder the earth. I think Cain is a good name. if he was in the 1st version of the matrix the fact he wonders the earth makes perfect sence. Because he wonders as a program. I get it now.

no you are right Pawnatron, in the bible Abel was supposed to be good natured, generous and cooperative.. Cain was the jealous and bitter one who ended up murdering his brother.

there isn't too many obvious connections between the story specifics of these bible characters and those seen in the matrix, so i think the most probable answer is to do with the fact that they are from an older version of the matrix.

in the bible, Cain & Abel were the first children born in "regular" fashion if catch my drift!

In some gnostic myths Cain and Abel were products of demons while Seth was the "intended" child of Adam and Eve. There was an aspect of gnosticism called Sethism.

Any help?

Yeah...great

who the F*** is seth?

The third son of Adam And Eve - Genesis 4:25

Oh right...sorry should of read more....hmmm....intersting.

I'm on it....

The Apocryphon (or Secret Book) of John is the one you ought to read. The Sethian Gnostics may have considered this book as sort of part 2 of the Gospel of John that appears in the canonical "Holy Bible." It deals primarily with a version of the creation myth, and secondarily with a version of the redemption myth, thus completing the cycle of "death and rebirth" mythically. It is presented as Jesus teaching John (the supposed author) the "secrets" and symbols of Genesis and the Christ myth, as well as the myth of Sophia, and some other essential Christian gnostic myths and ideas.

Interestingly, it also mentions "The One," the imprisonment of humanity, the demiurgic Ialdabaoth (the great architect), and human destiny. It's really a fascinating read. (there's a short version and a long version; it's the long one I'm talking about, naturally. )

According to the Apocryphon of John, Cain and Abel were both "authorities," or Archons, created by Ialdabaoth himself. Cain is equated with the sun. Then, later, Ialdabaoth took enlightened afterthought (which is feminine) out of Adam and made it into a womanly figure. Adam awoke to see this enlightened afterthought before him, which "removed the veil that covered his mind," and he called her Eve, that is, "life," for she was the mother of the living.

Ialdaboath defiled Eve, and she conceived two sons, Elohim and Yahweh. "One is just, the other is unjust." Ialdabaoth "called them by the names Cain and Abel, with a view to deceive."

The Sethians said of themselves that they were descended from Seth, who learned the secrets of their "faith" (term used loosely) from his father Adam. This probably did not mean a direct bloodline, but more likely just an ancestry of knowledge.

Silvercat wrote:

We know that they belonged to the perfect matrix that existed long ago, ie Eden.

Um, no we don't. We know only that "they come from a much older version of the matrix." That does not have to mean the first one. Remember:

The Architect wrote:

The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure.

So there was a second matrix in between the perfect "Eden" and the sprawling megacity Neo comes out of. Cain and Abel could (and most likely do) come from this version.

The Matrix's Cain and Abel aren't clearly identifiable; that is, I can't tell for sure which is which. The Enter the Matrix Game says only that they are both "either Vamp or Doberman" meaning vampire or werewolf, respectively, I presume.

Persephone shoots one with a silver bullet. The one she shoots definitely looks rather dog-like, don't you think? So he's gotta be Doberman/werewolf, since the silver bullet killed him. So maybe he's Cain and the other Abel; the other looks a bit slicker, more Vamp-like, to me, which would mean he was (un-)dead.

I dunno; maybe not.

Ooooh I hadn't thought of this before.

If the first "perfect" matrix was supposed to be Eden, then perhaps the second one before the arrival of "the one" is based on the world of Noah? Exiles like the merovingian are survivors. Any thoughts?

Here's the "Apocraphon Of John" online

Totally.

ive never heard of gnotism until i came to this forum? is it not very popular or something?

Gnosticism was declared as heresy by the Christian patriarchs when Christianity was most powerful. This was in the time when it was made the state religion by Emporer Constantine, towards the end of the Roman Empire when the capital had been moved to Contantinople. It had critics before that time too. Confusingly enough, they existed during the time of the early church when we were led to believe that the church was the most united.

Until recently we had no way of understanding gnosticism through anything other than its critics. Gnostic texts were destroyed (since they were considered heresy) and it wasn't until recently that a huge number of ancient gnostic scriptural texts were found. Since then it has been realised that gnosticism was, in fact, ahead of its time with many of its theological ideas and, in some ways, it could be considered more helpful spiritually than the traditional denominations. It's certainly more interesting .

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In some gnostic myths Cain and Abel were products of demons while Seth was the "intended" child of Adam and Eve. There was an aspect of gnosticism called Sethism. Any help?

So who would Seth be in the movies....maybe Seraph?
Not saying that a Seth has to be in the move...just maybe some character would fit as Seth....

Seraph = Seth?

Ooooh I'd never thought of it like that before. I like it!

After all the Merovingian does call him the prodigal "child"!

True...

New shit has come to light....Today I was talking with my friend about Cain and Abel and he told me that he has played several video games where a character called Cain was allways a Vampire...and he has not seen The Matrix or read the bible so...I thought that was kinda interesting.

Also dug up some links that could be of some use

Ok well we know the Merovingian has been around since the first matrix. So he might possibly have been the first program created inside of the matrix. We know hes one of the oldest but not if he IS the oldest. Now the architect and them are older but as far as inside the matrix itself goes, The Merovingian might be the first program installed. This could be a reference to Adam, First program installed - First human created. Possibly.

Going on this fact I connect that that makes Persephone Eve. Ok so if the merovingian crated Cain and Abel this could be the reason for their names. The sons of Adam and Even.

Also side note, wasn't there a seth in the matrix films and if so who was he?

Oh nevermind I didn't notice the comment a few posts back about the seth question. Ok so let me add on to my previous post with my ideas on seth. With Seraph being the prodical child (hence my name ) this also implies that Seraph was a "son" of the merovingian or rather a program he more than likely created to protect him. So in that case Seraph, despite his name being a reference to angels, might possibly be a reference to Seth, 3rd son of Adam and Eve. Nice pick up guys!

Danke Shön Prodical Child

....about your question

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Also side note, wasn't there a seth in the matrix films and if so who was he?

I didn't find any Seth in both drafts of the first movie and I also didn't find ''Seth'' in 2 and 3 scripts....