»The FINAL answers about the Matrix ( part I )«

hi all...i hope you understand what im gonna say as i've seen the Matrix more than i can count,its like i was seeing it everyday since the first one..plus all the philosophies i read from the official site of the matrix , you really gotta trust me in what im gonna say...

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#### Before anything you gotta know (which most of u already knows) that the Matrix trilogy combined between Philosophies,Religion and Science ...Thats why the PROBLEM IS CHOICE...coz you cant analyse the Movies in general..you will find it impossible..but when you only look at the movie from on point each time you will get it ..first explain the Matrix movie from the Religion point of view..you will find the Christ,Noh,the holly spirit,Devil,heaven,life,...etc...now check it from the Science and Technology point of view you will see as all what most of the people who doesnt understand the move see it ...human created the A.I. and so it took over the human and created programs to make humans under control,starting from Back doors to Cracking programs (the key maker open nay door as a Crack program) or a Searching Engine (the French man) or a Method transfair Cable (the train man),...etc.
or you can look at if from the philosophical point of view...that how can you be sure that what you are doing or the religion you are following is real ? how can u b sure that the Devil didnt cheat you to take u away from the GOD ? and give you some hope in life and wisdoms as a message that humanity gotta unite againts the deceave soon or later and end the Wars between them ...etc..now lets see how can these 3 poinf of view get along together...

@The Matrix triology has 3 type of life not only 2 lives...all the Answers you need to understand what its all about

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Lets talk about it from up to down...there gotta be a god who created the human who created the Machine..and then the machine created the Matrix...so what we have here is the GOD's life and the Human life and the Matrix ....i can hear u shouting at me..just wait plz till i finish... the Matrix triology didnt show the GOD (as he is different from each religion),but it showed Angels,Devils,holly spirit and Jesus,..etc
so...starting from the First movie..see every time the Operator or Neo see a Strange Code you will find it belong to a Speical THING (not a program)..the green codes for the Matrix only which we all agree on...it might be encyrpted but still GREEN (see reloaded when the operator didnt recognize neo and Smith so manytimes and still he was looking at a GREEN CODE screen), but the most important question is..what is the GOLD CODES for ?

THE GOLDEN CODE is for the real life..which is the life GOD created it..its the spirit of earth and all the living creatures god created..all the human in Zion r Golden Codes for the GOD its like what they made from,Seraph is playing the Guarding Angel role ( see when the oracle said HE'S BEEN PROTECTING ME FOR SO MANY YEARS) he is strong enough that NEO couldnt beat him comparing for the way NEO faught with SMITH and that SERAPH is warning the Oracle everytime Smith is near,so is the Archetict,the oracle,the Machine..becoz they all live in the real world that the God created it by his hand ...see Reloaded when NEO opened the DOOR MADE OF LIGHT,the camira took us high up as if we r going to the space..to the god or the devil whatever..its just that its not on earth or belong to any Systms of control anymore..its now to the most and only undenyable truth ..to the real life of god and angels and evils..high up..the Archtect is SATAN , as the Oracle says ( HIS REASON IS TO BALANCE...) which is to try to challenge the god and Balance him self with him in the humans eye..try to take over them and b stronger like god..or at least he is trying to do so..The Oracle is the holly spirit that guide the people ..and her reason is to UN-BALANce it as she said ...which means to fight SATAN to make there is only one power without an opposite..the GOD...when Seraph asked the Oracle at the end.."DID U ALWAYS Know?" she said " OH NO I BELIEVED,..." ..and every time Neo or Morphus asks the Oracle how can they trsut her she says ITS UP TO YOU.,,its the holly spirit that guides the people to the Light and she have prophecies as in the Bible and thats all..she means no harm she want you to BELEIVE IN HER BLINDLY and so you will win at last,which is the Bible and the holly spirit are exist for....see how Neo talk with the Archtech at the end of Reloaded..how he sweared him and gave him the F*nGER and told him " If i were you i would hope to not meet again" ..its not a way to talk with a GOD but the best way to talk with an ENEMY of JESUS ...and at the end of revolution when he told the Oracle " WHAT DO U THINK I AM ? A HUMAN" ....and also when he said " HOW LONG YOU THINK THIS PEACE IS GOING TO LAST ANYWAY" God wants peace not war for sure..but Satan wants the War...as Neo is Jesus , he is the one..and in Reloaded see when he pluged in the matrix to meet the Oaracle..a Painting of Jesus appeared in the Screen just before the Camira gets NEO...the French MAN is the DEVIL.(Satan is the prince of darkness and Evils r his soldiers)..see in Revolution when Seraph,trinity and Morphus went to meet the French man ..the button of the Elivator was written on it THE HELL and they went down , and all the guards were Vampires and people who worship Satan and the Devil...even when the french man saw them he didnt say WHAT THE HELL..he said what is IN the hell...Evil wants the Eye of the Oracle..its the Prophecies , he want to know what the God did for him at the end so he can avoide it (he is a Search engine,his purpose is to know and this is the only thing he dont know)...Smith is the Antichrist for sure...the Negative or the Opposite of Neo( Negative or Opposite = ANTI , so NEGATIVE OF CHRIST is ANTICHRIST)..who just want to Rule everything..want to rule the World....The Antichrist has powers like God (god gave it to him) and will spread everywhere in the world till JESUS kill him..just like what happend...so...becoz Neo is JESUS...he is not a NORMAL HUMAN although he was living in the REAL WORLD..this is the only explination for what he did ...he could see whithout eyes simply becoz he is JESUS ..and he didnt see the world from a HUMAN's eye..he saw it from a GOD's eye...whatever he is a god or son of th god..its just that he have powers in the REAL WORLD TOO...thats why he came back from the death in the first part although its impossible when Morphus said ( THE BRAIN CANT live without the body)...its like Jesus WTHERE HE DIED OR NOT he will come back again to kill the Antichrist and after that his mission ON EARTH will be over so he will go back to where he came from ..THE SOURCE..the place that everything created from..which the GOD is there and so jesus will go....see also the CROSS OF LIGHT when neo died at last...what happend in this sence that the Machine cant find the Program SMITH to delete it..its like when u have this Virus in ur computer that everytime u try to delete a file an error message says CANNOT DELETE FILE ITS IN USE , thats why they wanted to reset the Matrix..and as SATAN told JESUS (the Arctect to neo) that neo have to select individuals from Zion so they can be saved from the destruction of Zion..just like NOH...be saved from the Flawd...by the way..in REV. when Smith took over the Oracle..its a master reason that the Oracle is not the god for however claim that...but its the Antichrist trying to change in the Bible as they say now..but finaly the Truth will appear...
When Neo met the Architect in Reloaded..the two doors were one to the GOD and one back to the matrix ( Satan's world) that the problem is choice...Satan is deceaving Neo ,offering the the only 2 choices..to be with god or to be with Satan...he used Trinity to deceave Neo..made her in Danger and told Neo he could save her if he went away from the GOD light...as Satan doing to us now...

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As i said b4...dont try to look at it all at once...in the science and COmputer point of view the Arctect is a Machine Programer , the Machine that designed the Matrix,that sees only numbers,and Neo was an Anomoly for him so is Smith..as Smith is a Virus cant be deleted,taking over all the other programs,,Overwritting them..so he destroy programs and so he spread more,Neo is something like a Trojan horse , a good Trojan that is beyond control too...The Virus trying to Overwritten it and the Trojan trying to conatin the Virus and delete it...at the end Neo realized that there is no way from keep fighting as Smith the virus is more stronger...so when he went to the Machine they pluged Neo in...so the Machine had a Full control over Neo then,the machine could killed Neo if it wanted,,but the point is..Neo let Smith Overwrite him...so the BODY SMITH IN THE MATRIX is cnnected to the BODY OF NEO in the real world which is also connected to the machine...only then the machine became connected to SMITH....coz it was connected to the Trojan who gave him self to the Virus ..deceaved the Virus...so as all the Copies of Smith are one,there is no master...then NEO's Body became one...once the machine destroy it..they all be destroed..its as simple as that ... the movie couldnt be ended in anyway but this way...the Evil still trying to deceave people..and only few good people (zion) knows the truth and believe in god..fighting the Devil...the struggle must keep going till the God decide to finish them all..as we know when Jesus kill the Antichrist it wont b the end too....a life will still be going on...anyway...the Oracle saw it coming..and BELEIEVED that JESUS will win..as she didnt have a proof but its all about to BELEIEVE IN GOD...thats why she gave up her self to Smith..in order to help neo at the end...she made Smith see FAKE future...and then she made smith say the TAG of the movie EVERYTHING THAT HAS A BEGENING HAS AN END to Neo..so he understand what he have to do....Hope i answered questions for you guys..and i welcome any comments as long as its all in the track of discussing.... u can even E-mail me at : Stupid email address

Wow....that was amazing.

this is a fast explination of most of the Charcters :


As in the Religions :

1 - Merv is the Devil.
2 - The Arctect is Satan (lord of all the Devils and the one who challenged god)
3 - Neo is Jesus.
4 - The Oracle is the holly spirit.
5 - Smith is the AntiChrist.
6 - Seraph is the Guairding Angel.
7 - Morphus is the God of dreams for the old Rom



@And in the Computer :

1 - Merv is a Searching Engine knows everything.
2 - The Arctect is a programer machine that designed the matrix.
3 - The Oracle is a program responsible to help the Matrix survive by in direct way,by un balancing the qutation.
4 - The keymaker is a Crack program that crack any password and open any port
5 - The train man is a Data transfair cable.
6 - Seraph is a very powerfull FIREWALL protect the Oracle from Virus that can effect her
7 - Smith is a very strong Virus Overwrite him self on any Program.
8 - Neo is a Trojan horse thats why he is undefined for the Machine and can use any other program to have super powers.

This was going to be an email (as Aladdinamerican suggested) but I think I'll post it instead. I'm sorry this is going to be long, but there is much to cover.

Okay, so, I have to say, you didn't really "answer" anything. You have posited some compelling possibilities, especially on the science and technology/computer aspect of The Matrix. Religions, however, seem to be giving you amiss.

Here's the thing: It is almost impossible to know everything there is to know about various world religions. There are so many -- as many as there are people, in fact. So, it is totally forgiveable that you might miss one of the crucial aspects of the Matrix-religion, Gnosticism.

Contrary to popular belief, Gnosticism is not "an offshoot of Christianity." In fact, all evidence points to Gnostic Christianity (which, by the way, the Wachowskis admittedly borrowed from heavily) being the "Original" Christianity, and the Literalist (Catholic) Church coming up out of that, eventually crushing the Gnostic counterpart into oblivion.

Actually, Gnostics can be traced back much further than the first few centuries of the common era. In Ancient Egypt, the Mysteries of Isis held many of the same tenets as Gnostic Christianity. The Greek Mysteries of Eleusis and of Dionysius and of Orpheus were the same. Kabbala is an aspect of Judaism (Hebrew) that reveals the secrets ("Mysteries") of the Torah and other Hebrew scriptures. Hinduism can be directly correlated to the Mystery religions -- the Hindu myths ("lower mysteries") are incredibly confusing and convoluted, which tends to indicate that the myths are intended to be symbolic, despite the fact that the "higher mysteries" of Hinduism are conspicuously absent. When the symbolism we know from the other Mysteries is applied to Hinduism, things begin to make more sense. All of these "Mysteries" are entirely "Gnostic" in nature; that is, they are intended to impart profound knowledge from experiential initiations.

The whole point of the Gnostic paths is this: humanity is asleep, trapped in physical bodies ("prison for your mind"). We continually re-cycle (if you will) in a "Circle/Wheel of life and death," a reincarnation, death and rebirth, until we are awakened to our true selves, which is The One (God, Christ, ALL). In order to stop this cycle of death and resurrection, in other words, we must be initiated, or "born again."

At first, we are "Hylic," or somatic -- of the body, of the earth. The first initiation is water, psyche, mind. Here we awaken to the fact that we are not our physical bodies, but personalities within physical bodies. In this baptism by water, we learn the "lower (/outer/lesser) mysteries," which is the myth, the stories. The second initiation is Air, pneuma, spirit. Here we awaken to the fact that we are not merely personalities or minds, but spiritual beings, who often do not reside within "this crude matter" at all, but rather elsewhere, in a spiritual realm. We understand the symbols behind the myths; these are the "higher (/inner/greater) mysteries." The third and final initiation (some groups went through more steps, but seem to arrive at the same place, eventually) is fire, Mystery, mysticism, Knowledge, Gnosis. Here we awaken to the fact that we are not our bodies, nor are we our minds, nor are we individual spirits, but rather we are ALL, we are God. We are Christ, we are One. What happens to one of us happens to God, all of us. ("Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, you do unto me.") This baptism by fire is esoteric. It is personal. It cannot be taught or imparted in any way. It, like all of the initiations, must be experienced. This is one possible reason why the literalist camps sprouted out of each Mystery group -- it's much easier to "take the blue pill" and just be told what to believe, than to try to figure it out for yourself.

In my opinion, the process has increased in its negative effect over time; each (often hostile) takeover of a Mystery religion has resulted in its prime figure (a dying and resurrecting Godman) becoming more and more "historicised;" that is, he becomes more of a "real" historical figure each time, with the latest and most potent example being Christ. It may be noted that this is directly opposite to what the Mysteries are trying to show us: that we are not "real," that this place is not "real," except as we make it. (Doesn't it all sound like The Matrix?)

Your point about Philosophy, Religion and Science being a "trinity" of sorts is interesting. Philosophy and Religion are practically interchangeable terms in many respects. Many philosophers (like Plato, for example) viewed science and religion as practically interchangeable, as both have the same purpose: the search for truth.

Most people do not consider the Devil and Satan to be two separate entities, so I am curious as to why you mention that the Merovingian represents the Devil and the Architect Satan. As for me, in one way it does make sense: Lucifer fell from grace, as did the Merovingian. And the Architect is most certainly a representation of the Demiurge of the Gnostic Christians, the arrogant "Great Architect" that created the world, who is equated with Satan in some texts. HOWEVER, to say that one "is" the other is kind of misleading, not to mention a little bit crude.

For example: "The Oracle is the Holy Spirit" is only part of the picture. The "Holy Spirit" was called Sophia by the Gnostic Christians. Sophia was a Goddess and counterpart to Christ, but more importantly, she was the archetypal Female Aspect. This is most closely represented by Trinity in the movies, and connections can easily be drawn between Trinity and stories of Sophia.

Smith, I suppose, could be considered "AntiNeo," but more importantly, he represents "the Many," which is the opposite of "the One." I have mentioned this on another thread: Imagine a circle. The center of the circle, by definition, is One point. The circumference is made up of Many points. Without either of these components, you do not have a circle, therefore, without the One, you cannot have the Many, and without the Many, you cannot have the One, and without either of these, there is nothing.

Now imagine that the circle is God. This is the Gnostic image of what God is. There is One, in the center. Connected to the center by innumerable radii are the Many points that make up the circumference. These are the psyches, humans, US. We are the Many that makes up the Circle that is God. We are the One that is the center of the Circle that is God. Without the One, we would not be God. Without the Many of us, God would not exist.

In The Matrix Revolutions (and Reloaded too), Neo (the One) fights Smith (the Many). It's the center of the circle trying to fight its own circumference. Only when Neo and Smith united, the Many became the One, the circumference became the center, only then did Neo's purpose become fulfilled, Smith destroyed, and the war ended. Only then will we receive the Baptism of Fire, the Gnosis, and we become God.

When you think of God as most literalists do, as a personality, (and usually a jealous one at that) this sounds sacrelegious and blasphemous. But I remain convinced that this was the original teaching of the Christ story, as well as the original teaching of most every religion on the planet, and the true faith. I do not forsee this opinion being altered. But you never can tell.

...I dig your new avatar! ("Always the Great Eye, watching, watching....")

for sure all what you've just said is ( at least in our world a side from the movie) is 100% true...and tel u the truth i was kinda -in my self believing in this- i've been asking my self , how come the God is exist only for us ? how come you be exist for something you have created only ? what before he created us ? didn he had somekind of a GOD's life ? and who created him anyway ? you see this takes us far away from the Scintific/religious analysing , coz talking about God and his connection with us is beyond our knowledge as for the science and hadnt ben mentiond in any of us religions existd ( i mean Christianity,judsim and Islam ) all the other beliefs -at least i consider them and believe - they are Philosophical beliefs not a religous beliefs...being we all the god and the god is us , Alpha and Omega..and the theory of the Spirit of the Earth and that we all a part of only one thing , and when came from and will go to our Source ( omega or alpha i dont remeber) and that Alpha and Omega is the god so it take us that we r him and he is WE...but who created the first ? and this FIRST who created him on the fist palce ? and u can keep asking and asking till infinite...one of my firends who is interested in philosophy and paranormals told me before that the god is nothing but Energy ..and we are something like Photons in him...we live on him and he live on us...but the question no one can answer ..is how is the first ? and this FIRST who was before him that created him ? and who was b4 the first who created the first ?

anyway,i just wanted to say that i explained the movie and my theory from the religous and scintific point of views...if you read what i wrote carefully you would notice that i didnt try to go deep in philosophy ..didnt even come close it..coz i said THE PROBLEM IS CHOICE..how you want to understand the matrix ? thre are 3 ways you can search deep inside them..andeach one wont take us to the same result..i tried to explain 2 ways from my point of view...you are talking about th third passage pal ! which is the most difficult and actually hard to talk about ..not only coz of the SOO MANY theories like yours that can support what you said or even smashed them..but that Philosophy depends on your own way or thinking and personality...so you might believe in philosophical methods i wont beleieve in and vice reversa ...thats why you feel that the Matrix story didnt end yet when u think about it in te philosophical way...coz everyone can continue the story and define it from what he really beleieve in ..but when it comes to the other 2 passages i mentiond...its perfectly tieded ...they draw 2 lines and dint finish the third...thy let you draw it by ur self in the way you see it suitable for ur self and ur very own culture..or what do u think ?

( oh god I love it )

tell you something will rock you guys ? maybe you will understand me coz u know alot in philosophy ...
here is the Shock

The Matrix triology ... The Lord of the ring triology and The Terminator are a ONE HUGE perfectly-connected piece of art !

as i said , the Matrix and The lord of the ring have a VERY DEEP Religous and Philosophical hidden meanings and messages ,,,, The Matrix and The Terminator have a Very Deep Scientific and Philosiphical meanings (about the A.I. and the question that will this day real come / when machines take over the humans and the NUKE War begins ?)

The Three stories i believe that whoever understand them or at least try to learn more about them and try to search for the names,places and charecters or whatever and compare them to our -human race- ancient Legends and Myths or even religouns you will find the three of them Perfectly Matchs ! belive it or not

and about the ALL SEEYING EYE...its supposed to be the Eye of the Antichrist,and some say its the EYE of Satan that sees everything and work on the Economy as its on the US dollar...well it will takes us to even a deeper rabidd hole...but anyway...think about what i said about the three of them and you will get what i mean

Hm. I thought it was the Eye of Sauron. Oh, well.

Aladdinamerican wrote:

The Matrix triology ... The Lord of the ring triology and The Terminator are a ONE HUGE perfectly-connected piece of art ! as i said , the Matrix and The lord of the ring have a VERY DEEP Religous and Philosophical hidden meanings and messages....

Well, that's interesting. Another friend of mine (and also others on these forum-thingys [which is my way of getting around the Latin plural ]) has postulated that the Terminator trilogy (which, by the way, will probably soon be a Quadrilogy; a T4 movie is planned) leads into the Matrix stories, with the machines taking over, and all that. It makes some sense, but I don't believe it is worth any more than a cursory look; after all, it isn't likely at all that L&A W set out to continue The Terminator story. Their story, while similar to the Terminator story in many respects (not least of which being the machine/human war) is still a separate story.

However, to say that anything Tolkien wrote has a "very deep" and/or "clear" religious or philosophical meaning is preposterous. Tolkien hated allegory, and did not want anyone reading anything more into his stories than the words that he wrote. This is simply and plainly stated in Tolkien's own preface to The Lord of the Rings.

It is a nice idea, but it is -- how shall we put it? -- "Fundamentally Flawed."

lol i didnt say that they agreed together to connect the 3 stories...but u know im a programer and i attend to work as an A.I. Programer in the future , so the Idea of Machines taking over the humans is really exist..im not saying its possible or not but many scientist who dont like the Idea that we - as A.I. programers- should continue in the A.i> reseachres and claim that we r going to put an end to the man kind by giving the Birth to the machines...well believe it or not bust it have just started .. in NASA SpaceShips and the US Auto-Aircrafts the most Advanced A.I. technology.. as someone mention b4 , PI ...millions of millions of millions of possibilities were given to the Computer , (after all what is the different between an A.I. machine now days and a real BABY ?) both still dont know anythin..dont know and STILL dont have the ability to start THINKING by its self...maybe its ready now for taking Ideas and Devolepe it as a baby..but dont know how to make up one yet...both humans babies and A.I. machines dont have the ability to think yet coz they dont know the BASICs and the Posibilities that they need to create an Individual unite by its self...we keep taching babies till they graw up Mently b4 physicly ! how ? by teaching them the Alphabatics...and then the first basics ever,,and then give them posibilities like WHAT IF ...and we give them posibilites that make them realize another posibility by thier selves !... you the different between a normal computer and an existing A.I. computer now is that when we give a normal computer a possibility that the weather is HOT so he pre-programed that when the weather is hot then the only result is to GO OUT WITH LIGHT CLOTHES , but when we give the A.I. computer the Possibility that the weather is hot...we pre-GAVE HIM not programed it with so many other possibilities..to know for how long the hot weathr will last and then how to deal when it start to be colder and so ..., now days NASA's Spaceships Are all A.I. .. can work alone ...the programers gave them the possibilites of What the surface of the Mars might b like...and for sure as a human you know if there is a fire you wont touch it to not burn ur self..instead u will try to figure out a way to go around it or to deal with it..so they give the A.I. computer of the space craft these Facts and Possibilities and let they deal by thier selves...long time ago they had to program the space ships...so when it had a problem like for example facing a wall it will b like a Toy work with batteries,keep moving and when it hit the wall u will see it still keep moving in its place..coz it only preprogramed to keep moving to ZONE-X for example..so they had to send another ship to fix it..but now the Robots deal by there selves...when they face awall automaticily they knoew previously that the wall stop them from moving,as a reaction they know they have to stop moving and move to another direction till they can get back to there right track..which is so close to a HUMAN BABY thinking...maybe in the future with the more A.I. computer gain experiences and more facts and possibilities they will start thinking by them selves...see in the Animatrix when the first Robot killed his master...maybe he willl reach the fact that his master want to destroy him and thre for he wont b able to do his operations..and as a REaction to this fact he will have to defnce him self AS INDIVIDUAL THINKER this time..and the more the human fight the more the Machine gain more possibilities of the danger and gain more facts that the human is defently the Enemy and therefor it will start to Fight back,and the more and moe we fight they will gain more facts..till they NUKE US..like in the Matrix and the Terminator and all the other movies that predict this action as the World war 3 or the end of the world...and like the Matrix showed us,the Machines will reach to the fact that they cant live without a power so as a Reaction (as they been taught by us to taje the posibilities and turn them into a Reaction) will study us in hope to use us as Batteries...sound easy now for these people who dont beleieve in th coming war ? abuot me i realy dont care to beleieve in it or not..but i believe that the A.I. machines will reach a level someday that we all will hopelessy depends on in everything in out life..why then the Machine dont reach the fact that we r living becoz of them ? and that they r the masters ? and start to create thier own tools to fit thier own needs ?even if its over us ?

A rudimentary study of Kabbala (which I admit is all I have thus far been able to attain) will show exactly what the "first" is and where it comes from.

The first is first, which means that nothing can come before it. This is chochmah, which is "wisdom." Incidentally, Sophia is a Greek word for wisdom, and is found in the Greek Christian texts; Gnostic Christians also worshipped Sophia/Wisdom as a goddess, the first, from whom sprang all other life.

"The Tanya -- a Chassidic/Kabbalistic work describes chochmah as consisting of two Hebrew words: koach mah, meaning "potential." For chochmah is pure potential. It is an idea waiting to be developed."

Read the rest of this article here: aish.com...

or, I recommend starting with #1 and reading the whole series of articles (41 in all; it's a bunch, but it's an interesting read) here:
aish.com...

Kabbala is considered (by Hasidic Jews, at least) to be indispensible to understanding the Torah, which is the main scripture of one of your main 3 "religions." How can this be "philosophy" and not "religion," to use your terms?

I believe you still miss the point by ignoring the history of religion; philosophy and religion are connected. The only difference is with philosophy you are allowed, encouraged even, to form your own opinions, (as you said) whereas with religion, you are told what the faith is, and you obey, you conform, or you (most often) suffer eternally. Religion in this aspect is usually a derivative of philosophy; religion in this aspect is a system of control based upon philosophy.

The symbols are there; on this we agree. But your assertion that philosophy and religion are separate I fundamentally disagree with. Philosophy is the essense of religion. Without it, religion becomes mindless idol-worship (and I don't deny that it is in danger of doing just that).

I continue to find your thoughts on A.I. fascinating.

Quote:

The symbols are there; on this we agree. But your assertion that philosophy and religion are separate I fundamentally disagree with. Philosophy is the essense of religion. Without it, religion becomes mindless idol-worship (and I don't deny that it is in danger of doing just that).

you get me totaly wrong man,i didnt mean that the religion and philosophy are not connected,,of course they are..i was talking about thier connection inside the movie..i meant that every one of them have a totaly different meaning in the movie..for example the charecters as i mentioned b4 ..see how they r different when you see them as religious or philisophical charecters ? this is what i meant ! but thanx so much for the essays u sent me..im gonna check them out...

and i was thinking to start a whole new thred with people who have a very strong back ground of philosophical/historical and religous events and myths to discuess everything in the movie from what happend in real b4..and see to what this will lead us ! what do u think ?

actually, that's kind of what this particular forum IS doing. there are lots of us debating lots of philosophical (and religious, i guess) implications in The Matrix movies. check out some of the other threads and see for yourself.

My point about religion and philosophy, and why i don't agree with your pidgeon-holing religion into the "big 3" Semite-originated groups of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is that there are lots of folks with beliefs that are not related to these three who are just as strong in their faith, who live and work with just as much "religious fervor." Would you call Hinduism a "philosophy?" what about Wicca? I certainly would not call that a "philosophy" by your definition (as I understand it) because it does not try to explain through wisdom ("sophia") what it can otherwise tell mythically.

The fact that The Matrix movies seem to hold so many connections to mythic and philosophic principles is definitely something to pursue.

Just one question. If the GOlden code is the life, why can't Neo see Trinity (or even the babies in the field) while he can see inteligent machines and Bane ?

Sorry haven't bothered to read the thread properly. The golden code isn't life, is it? It seems to me that things glow in "Neo-vision" when they have a strong link with the source. The source is like God - it produces the children, it chooses who will live and who will die and it seems that all those who are out of favour are condemned to the matrix.

Just interested. I noticed that you showed what philosophy is - love of wisdom. Do you know what the other greek words for love are?

There's fatherly love, brotherly love, love for one's friend and erotic love. Which one is philo? I know that eros is erotic love and that Christians have an extra one called agape (sacrificial love). I can't remember which the other two are or which type philo is.

Of course the gold-code is not life, but I know that people can see their own mistakes easier if you point a contradiction by asking to them a question, wich lead them to think about it.

Oh yeah Fatpie, I was interested by the quotation you have in your signature, it is bible or something ? Thx for telling what it is.

Some interestng ideas, however you have some misunderstanding.

The Architect is not Satan. A better religous allusion for the Architect would be to that of Brahma, the creator god, who created the world then sat back and watched it.

Think of how you described Satan - "(... the one who challenged god)". This is the role fullfilled by Neo in Reloaded. Also the Oracle at times fits this role. This about what she says in revolutions... the architects job is to "balance the equation" and hers "is to unbalance it". Really doesnt sound like the arcitecht is the one challenging, but is actually on the side that is being challenged, by Neo and the Oracle.

The source is the infinite god, from which the creator god came. The architect does not ever challenge god. The Architect wanted Neo to return to the source to complete the equation, however because of Neo's love for Trinity (and indirectly the actions of the oracle) he choose to take the path away from god. In this way Neo fullfils the role of satan, or the serpent.

Think of their scene together. Neo dressed in black, the Architect in a glowing white. Come on! The imagery is blatent! Also notice all the TVs, this reinforces the idea that the Architect merely watches the Matrix these days, he is not involved in it.

Of course, Neo also can be seen representing christ in many points in the triology, however christian theology isnt the best to use for allusion because of its rigidity in defining good and evil. Budhusim can be used as a better representation of Neos journey away from god to his final return.

I can understand how youve made this misinterpretation, but you have to relieze that looking at allusions to Satan and Jesus or budhist gods in terms of good and evil is seriously flawed. If you look at religous symbols with connections of good and evil (which appears to be what youve done) then you cannot accurately connect these symbols to what is happening in the movies.

I dont mean to sound like a cocky asshole, but Im sure that you are incorrect on this.

Dan wrote:

...Of course, Neo also can be seen representing christ in many points in the triology, however christian theology isnt the best to use for allusion because of its rigidity in defining good and evil. Budhusim can be used as a better representation of Neos journey away from god to his final return....

Yes... and no. Buddhism is indeed a very good guide for the allegories and archetypes to be found in The Matrix Trilogy; it has been pointed out before in other threads (to my own correction, in fact) that Zen Buddhism is the only religion/philosophy the Wachowskis admittedly drew from for the movies.

HOWEVER, Christianity's rigidity comes from its own literalistic interpretations. It is Gnostic Christianity that comes closer even than Buddhism (though the parallels between the two suggest more than a casual similarity) to parallelling the images in The Matrix Trilogy. The Gnostics taught -- I do not say "believed," because the word is not accurate to describe their teachings; the more I study it the clearer it becomes to me that the Gnostics never took the Christ myth literally, just as the Buddhists did/do not take the Hindu myths on which their faith is built literally -- that the cosmos (Greek word meaning "order, harmony")was created by an archon called Ialdabaoth. He is the Demiurge; literally, "artisan; one with special skill; worker of [for] the people." He was equated with Satan sometimes, but he was definitely not God. He was known as "the Great Architect," and in his arrogance and ignorance he believed that he was the one true god, and told the Jews just that. To the Gnostics, he was the God of the Old Testament.

For the Gnostics, good and evil were not personified as they are in orthodox Christianity. Good and evil were, rather, a syzygy, One necessarily appearing as Two. In fact, to the Gnostics, the entire universe, including the Demiurge and where he came from, was the result of the primal syzygy, of Consciousness trying to comprehend itself, becoming both subject and object.

Dan wrote:

...I can understand how youve made this misinterpretation, but you have to relieze that looking at allusions to Satan and Jesus or budhist gods in terms of good and evil is seriously flawed. If you look at religous symbols with connections of good and evil (which appears to be what youve done) then you cannot accurately connect these symbols to what is happening in the movies....

Yes... and no! Absolutely, you are right, that any connections to any archetypal image (in any story, not just The Matrix) will be "fundamentally flawed." But this should be universally applied. Especially when dealing with other people's beliefs. Unfortunately, no one can be told what God/religion/philosophy is; you have to experience it for yourself.

Dan wrote:

...I dont mean to sound like a cocky asshole, but Im sure that you are incorrect on this.

Not to worry. I am sure that I am incorrect. Or I am correct. The only thing I know for certain is that I do not know. (one of the Gnostic mantras, btw)

Quote:

Unfortunately, no one can be told what God/religion/philosophy is; you have to experience it for yourself.

I couldnt agree more! What saddens me is how many people do not know or consider anything more than what is told to them in church on sundays.

anyway, thanks for your feedback, I found it quite interesting. Im really not very famillar with gnostism, but I must admit your allusions to it have been pretty fascinating, and certainly the ying-yang duality of good and evil and the idea of a "primal syzygy, of Consciousness trying to comprehend itself, becoming both subject and object", fit very well into some of the deepest thematic idea of the matrix movies.

These gnostics seem to have a good approach to thelogy... I think Im going to have to do some research into their teachings.

Since you asked....

It is sad, is it not, that the English language has only one word for "love," an emotion (or a state of being, perhaps) that can be experienced in so many varied and unique ways? I have read that there were 96 words for "love" in Sanskrit. The three Greek words we now describe in one for "love" are "eros," "agape" and "philia."

In the myth of Eros and Psyche, (the meanings behind the names should be fairly obvious) tells of the god of love, Eros, who falls in love with Psyche, a mortal. The full story is somewhat complicated, (want to read it? here's one telling of it: ny.essortment.com...) but it corresponds with many other myths of the God and Goddess. Suffice it to say that eros is that love which is passionate desire.

Philia is the term from which the "phil" part of "philosophy" is derived. It suggests an appreciation or admiration for its object; think of Anglophilia, or Francophilia (something the Merovingian obviously has). The darker side of this, of course, would be necrophilia, pedophilia, etc. Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly Love, has this same root in its etymology.

Agape is the love of Man for God and God for Man. It is the pinnacle of love, being absolutely unconditional. The commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" is certainly referring to this type of love.

here is a page which seems to explain it all.
iep.utm.edu...

Love is an all encompassing term, and can be very versatile, meaning many things. But that doesnt mean that we cant find seperate english words to desribe various feelings associated with love.

adulation, devotion, lust, passion, infatuation, admiration.

these are all concepts connected to love.

Dan wrote:

What saddens me is how many people do not know or consider anything more than what is told to them in church on sundays.

amen to that.... The "Blue Pills" sure can be frustrating sometimes.

Dan wrote:

anyway, thanks for your feedback, I found it quite interesting. Im really not very famillar with gnostism, but I must admit your allusions to it have been pretty fascinating, and certainly the ying-yang duality of good and evil and the idea of a "primal syzygy, of Consciousness trying to comprehend itself, becoming both subject and object", fit very well into some of the deepest thematic idea of the matrix movies. These gnostics seem to have a good approach to thelogy... I think Im going to have to do some research into their teachings.

You are most welcome.... Might I recommend a book or two? The one thing I have been interested in for many years is where our belief systems come from. Ever since Roman Catholicism stopped making sense to me, I have been looking for the answer.... It's the question that drives me! When I read these two books, I finally found something that made sense to me, even though it has raised more questions than it answered!

They are: The Jesus Mysteries, and Jesus and the Goddess (or, Jesus and the Lost Goddess, as published in the US) by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Amazon.com has them, or you can visit their website at jesusmysteries.demon.co.uk...

Incidentally, Temet Nosce, which appears above the Oracle's kitchen door, is (as you must know) Latin for "know thyself," which is another Gnostic "mantra" (for lack of a better word). The phrase (in Greek, "Gnothi Seauton") also appeared at the entrance to Apollo's Oracle at Delphi, along with another phrase: "Thou Art."

Exactly - It seems that the Merovingian is Satan and because of the gnostic influences he becomes very much less important. The really important characters for gnosticism are, instead, Yaldabaoth (The Demiurge, Samael) and Sophia. These are represented by The Architect and The Oracle respectively.

Yaldabaoth is the God of the law who uses the law to imprison mankind. He is also the creator of the world. In Gnosticism Sophia gave birth to Yaldabaoth without the true God's consent, but hid him out of shame. Yaldaboath (referred to as Samael in the gnostic creation story - it means "God of the blind) believes that he is the only God and creates the world. (It seems like some elements of Yaldaboath are taken up by Smith rather than the Architect).

Jesus is meant to be the product of Sophia AND the true God. Jesus is the intended child while Yaldabaoth is the unintended. When reading the gnostic texts one cannot help but feel partially sorry for Yaldabaoth. Though his actions are wrong and he is arrogant it is also true that he is born a monster.

Dan when you compared the Architect with Brahma were you following a Hindu or Buddhist interpretation? Buddhists do not believe that any God has ever created the world. They believe that Gods are just as tied into the cycle of birth and rebirth as anyone else and that the great Brahman merely believes himself to have created the world....

oh sorry, I guess I kinda bounced from Brahma to chrisitanity to buddhism without really clarifiying, didnt I?

yeah, you are correct, my interpretation of the architect being equatable to Brahma (or the gender neutral Brahman) would be in terms of Hinduism. Hinduism and the story of Vishnu's many incarnations is quite applicable to revolutions, especially in terms of Neo's meeting with Rama-candra... however in many other aspects zen buddhism fits the bill better.

Because of the simillar foundations in the birth and rebirth cycle I sometimes mix up my refrences to buddhism and hinduism when Im talking about the matrix.

anyway, your comparisions to gnosticm are interesting. I dont know enough about the actual gnostic teachings to really venture an opinion, but Im kinda unsure of how well Yaldaboath fits the architect, at least in term of being an unwanted child born of Sophia (cause that really sounds like Smith). But of course, the arrogant creator, well that fits the achritect to a T.

well, either way, to try and allegorize (is that conjugation proprer?) the matrix directly to any faith would be off base in some places, so I wont try and dig too deep into that. Its good food for thought though

Have you read the essay: "Wake Up! Gnosticism and Buddhism in the Matrix" ? It can be found in the Matrix website's philosophy section and it is one of the few essays there which has not bored me to tears. In fact I found it very inspiring....

Also if you check out my website I have some links on my gnosticism page which are worth taking a look at. Unfortunately my comparison between gnosticism and the matrix was based solely on the first movie and seems a bit outdated now.

I took Neo seeing the Machine City elements as they actually were, just like in the matrix: He could see CODE, & the 'real' machines were just different type of code. Really I didn't think of it as code at all, but what he's seeing in ENERGY, electricity, all the machine stuff at work. That's all I think it amounts to.

He sees that because he was a 'test tube' pod baby so to speak & genetically contains code & things that combined with his function & evolution of use & acquisition of abilities AND in awakening or recieving the essences of real connection w/the Power from/of the Source....is WHY he can 'feel,' see it.

I don't think is any more to that. It didn't strike me as unusual or unexpected.

But I still think that area is another level of Matrix as well. A different construct! In that situation, it may very well be 'CODE' & not just ENERGY.
Or it could be both.