»Neo did not become a Program and Merv was never a One.«

There is a lot of blasphemy about Neo becoming a program and the Merovingian having been a One once. So I have put this together, hopefully to clear it up.

Lets have a look at some of the ‘Holy Scriptures’ (lol) from the Matrix...

Oracle: he's being held prisoner by a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us; he's called the Merovingian

Merovingian: And it so happens there is something I want. Something I've wanted ever since I first came here.

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We’ll get back to Merv, but for now lets concentrate on Neo...

Agent Brown: Only human. –
Taken from M1’s bullet time scene on top of the building (the agent is referring to Neo).

(M2)
Agent Johnson: It's him.
Agent Thompson: The anomaly
Agent Jackson: Do we proceed?
Agent Thompson: Yes,
Agent Jackson: He is still
Agent Johnson: Only human.

Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much.
Hamann: That's a good sign.
Neo: Of what?
Hamann: That you are in fact, still human.

Merovingian: Handle us? You'll handle us? You know, your predecessors had much more respect...okay you have some skill. Kill him...You see, he is just a man...

Architect: You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses

She is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion

Human, Human, Human, Man, Human, human, Human.

Also did a search for 'Program' in relation to Neo, sorry found nothing.
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The Architect mentions Neo’s consciousness has been altered by the process he has undergone. He then not only identifies that Neo Remains Human but also defines the manner in which he remains:

Irrevocably:
Incapable of being recalled or revoked; unchangeable; irreversible; unalterable; as, an irrevocable promise or decree; irrevocable fate

I think the Arc was very well spoken and wouldn’t have used such a word if it were not what he meant.

He also deduces Neo’s responses are from his humanness.

So, if Irrevocably means it cannot be undone, then even if we imagine Neo became a program as well as remaining human (which of course there’s no reference to), we would also have to say that Merv whilst a program, also remains human from being a One once... and how old is he? ...I don’t think so!
In any case it is mentioned that he came to the Matrix as an Exile.

I Know this is Overkill but...

1. Only human.

2. Only human.

3. Still human.

4. Just a man...

5. Irrevocably human

6. Predictable of all human

7. Quintessential human

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Architect: Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One.

In case any one was wondering, I think this shows that all the Ones were Human as defined by their Bias and Function, as well as the Arc's 'your'

The One is a Human.

There really isn’t any reference to the One/Neo becoming a Program. We can imagine him as such, but I think we would do better to just stay within the script.

"he is still"

" only human"

can this not be interpetaed as the agents expecting that at some point this will change?

alot of people seem to base theories on what the architect said in reloaded(including me)

we have to realise that the architects main goal is to keep the matrix "alive" and to do so he has to control neo back to the source...

so he tells neo the same information that has persuaded his predeccessors to take thew door to the source...but neo choose differently on his love for trinity...at least at face value

Quote:

can this not be interpreted as the agents expecting that at some point this will change?

To the contrary I think it was because of Neo’s change/powers that they were reminding themselves that he is still only human.

Quote:

to do so he has to control neo back to the source...

One of the main problems with the ‘system of control’ theory, at least with this time around, is that had the Architect not told Neo about Trinity’s attempt to save his life it would have dramatically increased the chances of Neo Reloading the system. In fact just moments after he has mentioned it he goes on to say ‘but we already know what you are going to do, don't we?’ He probably had a good idea Neo would go for it before he told him.

Now its possible in previous versions of this encounter that there might have been manipulation, we just don’t know for sure, we don’t seem to have any information as such. Upon examining this encounter with the Architect he seems to be transparent.

Neo seems to see it as an attempt of control though, by his initial response later, but lets face it, Neo doesn’t understand a lot of things at this point in the story.

To find out more, click: matrix-explained.com...

Yes he is human, but he is also all program. The program aspect does not stop him from being human at any point.

If we are basing this view on the Christian theological interpretation then it fits perfectly with the view that Christ was all human and all God at the same time. What is also worth pointing out is that Neo is not "only human" he is more powerful than your average human.

Allow me to quote Matrix 1

"They can move in and out of any SOFTWARE still hardwired..."

Humans are only humans outside of the Matrix, within the Matrix they are programs. Neo inside the Matrix is a program.

Humans outside of the matrix are only human,
but Neo outside of the matrix is also still a program within the matrix (in M3)!
Therfore Neo is not ONLY human.

JamesWI wrote:

Allow me to quote Matrix 1 "They can move in and out of any SOFTWARE still hardwired..." Humans are only humans outside of the Matrix, within the Matrix they are programs. Neo inside the Matrix is a program.

very good point

Quote:

Humans are only humans outside of the Matrix, within the Matrix they are programs. Neo inside the Matrix is a program.

It is the mental projection of your digital self.
Neo: This...this isn't real?
Morpheus: What is real. How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

The ‘programs’ you refer to are not real in themselves, like the sentient Agent Programs are etc. It is just a simulation of the human that is plugged into the Matrix, their matrix-explained.com...(<--click). Feelings, thoughts and actions come from their humanness that is connected.

They remain essentialy Human while simulated within the Matrix. That is why if they are killed there they also die in the real world.

I thought you would of figured that out by now.

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If we are basing this view on the Christian theological interpretation

If you wish to base Neo on this view you will need to provide the references from the Matrix that specifically reveal this.

Yes he is more powerful than your average human but it is revealed that his power comes from the Source (the Machine Mainframe), not from God. This still does not prove he is essentially anything more than human.

Inevitability wrote:

Quote: If we are basing this view on the Christian theological interpretation If you wish to base Neo on this view you will need to provide the references from the Matrix that specifically reveal this. Yes he is more powerful than your average human but it is revealed that his power comes from the Source (the Machine Mainframe), not from God. This still does not prove he is essentially anything more than human.

"you're my saviour man, my own personal Jesus Christ"

Merovingian refers to him as "your saviour"

The place he is saving is Zion which is referred to in Isaiah as a kind of prophesised promised land. (Isaiah is where the prophecies of Christ are found)

The Merovingian seems to be a kind of anti-christ (the setting in Le Vrai is based on the painting of "The Last Supper" by Da Vinci)

And of course there is the blatant crucifix shape taken up by Neo when he destorys Smith.

The references to Christianity are endless but the self-evident ones which can be found without too much speculation are the ones above.

------- BTW "Deus" means God ie. Deus Ex Machina (the machine with the face made of sentinels at the end of the matrix)

The theories about the Merovingian being a former (negative) One are nice to talk about.

You can find arguments for him being the first (negative) One.

But indeed both Persephone (M2) and Mero (M3) mention something about their first coming to the Matrix. This indeed indicates that they are both programs, which took exile from the machine world.

I think he just symbolizes Satan. He exiled from the Source/machine world and craves having all the power for himself. His goons are other programs who joined him. They represent Satan's demons that he took with him to earth (1/3 of God's angels joined him).

The Merovingians claimed to be in the bloodline of Christ. I think his name is linked to the negative Ones (like Smith). They have 'blood' (read: code) from the Christ, but they are his opposite. Smith is the anti-Christ and thus related to Satan (Mero).

It still remains a mistery why they are on the 101-floor in the restaurant and why there are five glasses on the table. I think maybe he helped each negative One. Why else does Smith know how to get through the doors of the secret hallway? And why does Smith only start his havoc six months after he was destroyed by Neo?
I think the Merovingian took care of him, as he does with other dangerous exiles.

About Neo becoming a program. I am not sure.
His entire code seems to be absorbed into the Source though. If they link him to advanced AI, they can make a program out of him which comes very close to being a human. But the question is: why the hell would they ever do that?

Within Christianity there were two falls. One of the angels and one of mankind.

The merovingian is Satan leading the fallen angels. However, he is a kind of anti-christ and so Seraph who has betrayed him is portrayed as a fallen angel when he has in fact been saved by the oracle.

Smith represents mankinds corruption (or 'sin') being revealed by the law (the architect). No human is without sin because none can live up to the high standards of perfection. However, Neo (representing Christ) cancels out Smith (representing sin) by his sacrifice (where Neo goes into crucifix shape and glows).

While Neo is mankinds saviour it seems like Sati is the saviour for the programs

Please don’t hear what I am not saying.

I know my friend that there are lots of references and similes to Christianity etc. But you said base in relation to Neo being both Program and human, like ‘Christ was all Human and all God at the same time’.

While there are lots of Christian parallels and other religious influence, I don’t see it going as far as actually clarifying Neo that way. He may look like it at times, but that may be the point, to cause us to identify and so draw us into something we can relate to etc. But to specifically define Neo as a Program as well as human would need specific references as such, much like the references that are provided from the start of this thread.

The point is those references are dealing with the question of Neo being a Program or not. Most are in the context of his super human powers coming under scrutiny.
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Cool observation by the way about Merv being Satan and leading the fallen Angels/programs etc

While the Matrix is influenced by many perspectives/religions, I believe running concurrent to this is it’s own perspective/religion. Its own unique story. To discover this we need to stay within the parameters of what is actually going on rather than adding many perceptions we can formulate to be going on from analogy.

The eventual result can lead us into a richer experience that not only can be enjoyed within its own uniqueness, but also can further enrich the many other aspects revealed. It’s a very deep rabbit hole.

Inevitability wrote:

Please don’t hear what I am not saying. I know my friend that there are lots of references and similes to Christianity etc. But you said base in relation to Neo being a Program and human, like ‘Christ was all Human and all God at the same time’. While there are lots of Christian parallels and other religious influence, I don’t see it going as far as actually clarifying Neo that way. He may look like it at times, but that may be the point, to cause us to identify and so draw us into something we can relate to etc. But to specifically define Neo as a Program as well as human would need specific references as such, much like the references that are provided from the start of this thread. The point is those references are dealing with the question of Neo being a Program or not. Most are in the context of his super human powers coming under scrutiny. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cool observation by the way about Merv being Satan and leading the fallen Angels/programs etc

what about

"your life is the sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix"

does this not imply that neo was essentially created to be the way he is and have the abilities he has by in some way combining him with the programming of the matrix

Quote:

in some way combining him with the programming of the matrix

Yes, in some way. But because this can be difficult to understand, or that things ‘just don’t seem to add up’, we should take care in ensuring that we do not to move all our eggs in one basket, so to speak, to facilitate an easy understanding.

The point is Neo is the Anomaly. By that very definition it shows that he is not easily going to be understood.

We have already heard how human Neo was. Now we have to deal with the phrases from the architect about dispersing Neo's code through the matrix. How are they supposed to do that if he is ONLY human. And then there's the ability to be in the matrix while not jacked in.

Neo is a program. The one is a program and Neo is 'the one' and 'the one' is Neo and Neo is human. Hence Neo is both human and program.

And while we're on the subject can I please add that it fits in well with the theological interpretation?

LOL

No, Neo is Not referred to as a Program. Nor is the One!

He is referred to as the Anomaly. They don’t know what he is!


Architect: You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate’

He would not of been talking about his effort to eliminate if in fact he had been responsible for creating Neo and his powers etc.

The architect deals with the matrix code. It is an anomaly in the code of the matrix. Neo is a kind of program! (how many times is anything in matrix actually called a 'program' - about once, when the oracle is talking to Neo before the burly brawl.

Quote:

how many times is anything in matrix actually called a 'program'

Sorry, I may be misunderstanding what your saying, but references to things being called a ‘program’?

Well, there’s lots...

Oracle: I know. So, let's get the obvious stuff out of the way.
Neo: You're not human, are you?
Oracle: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that.
Neo: If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine world; So is he.
Oracle: So far, so good.


Neo: Are there other programs like you?
Oracle: Oh, well, not like me, but...look. See those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees, and the wind, sunrise and sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do are invisible, you'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, you hear about them all the time.
Neo: I've never heard of them.
Oracle: Oh, of course you have. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens. It's the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.
Neo: Programs hacking programs. Why?
Oracle: They have their reasons, but usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion.
Neo: And why would a program be deleted?
Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it, happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to the source.

These are a few, but there are many more.
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There is some kind of ‘program’ or more to the point ‘code’ that is being outworked, but not in the typical sense. It’s not controlled as such; it’s out of control, that’s why the machines can’t stop it. Its an anomaly and its nature has much to do with the combined relationship of Man & Machine.

It’s really late where I am in the Uk, I need to get some sleep. None of this can be answered in a short post. So for now I bid you good night. I have much more to share, not that I presume to be someone who knows it all, as I believe together we learn from one another. I have learned much from others and am making discoveries all the time, like your Merv & angels thing, I hadn’t seen it like that before.

hi guys..nice try but Merv is not the Anti christ neither an old One's Negative

As in the Religions :

1 - Merv is the Devil.
2 - The Arctect is Satan (lord of all the Devils and the one who challenged god)
3 - Neo is Jesus.
4 - The Oracle is the holly spirit.
5 - Smith is the AntiChrist.
6 - Seraph is the Guairding Angel.
7 - Morphus is the God of dreams for the old Rom.

For the Undoubtable and so obvious Proofs of what i wrote above plz vitise this page as i post my proofs there :

@And in the Computer :

1 - Merv is a Searching Engine knows everything.
2 - The Arctect is a programer machine that designed the matrix.
3 - The Oracle is a program responsible to help the Matrix survive by in direct way,by un balancing the qutation.
4 - The keymaker is a Crack program that crack any password and open any port
5 - The train man is a Data transfair cable.
6 - Seraph is a very powerfull FIREWALL protect the Oracle from Virus that can effect her
7 - Smith is a very strong Virus Overwrite him self on any Program.
8 - Neo is a Trojan horse thats why he is undefined for the Machine and can use any other program to have super powers.

plz,,,I still recomend u to check out my post of THE FINAL ANSWER OF THE MATRIX PART I as i answered almost all of the questions you are wondering :

Inevitability, I agree with you on many, many points. However, consider this:

When the Architect tells Neo about the function of the One, he mentions that "the function of the One is now to return to the source... where you will... choose from the matrix... to rebuild Zion." Now, some of this is speculation, and assumption, and for that I apologize, but I don't know of any contradictions to this, either, so please, read and feel free to smash it to bits!

Here's my point: Who was the first to "build Zion?" Was it another human? How could the machines/the Architect/the "Mother"/the Oracle/whoever choose among all the humans connected to the matrix to find the first "One?" Even if the matrix went on for a while without Zion (which I doubt, cf. the Architect's spiel again) there would have to be someone to "free the first of" the humans. If the first One, then, were human, he would still be connected to the matrix, which I think we can also roundly reject.

Therefore, the first "One" to free the first humans to build the first Zion, was most likely a program.

What does the Merovingian do in the matrix? He saves programs from deletion, albeit for his own designs. If he were, in fact, "initially designed" to pick out humans from the matrix to form Zion, that would certainly explain his predilection for doing the same with programs after his purpose was complete, and he became an exile.

Make sense? Or am I just jerking off? (Blazing Saddles reference)

As for Aladdinamerican, I think you have some good ideas, but I think you're just a bit off, on the whole. You make the mistake (as even I am guilty of doing from time to time) of taking literally what is meant as allegory. I'm not talking about the Matrix films, particularly; I'm talking about religion itself. The history of religion can be traced from the Mysteries, with all their myths and hidden esoteric teachings, to a half-arsed literal interpretation of those same Mysteries, an imperfect copy, created by those for whom the myths hold only an echo of the profound meaning they were intended to hold. This can be seen from ancient Egypt through Greek and Roman Empires, from Judaism to Hinduism to Christianity (yes, even precious Christ). The meanings of the symbols are what is important (and you seem to grasp this concept well) not the symbols themselves.

I think I will take you up on your offer to email you for further discussion. You seem too convinced of yourself. I don't know if I'm right. I just know what makes sense to me. If it makes sense to you too, that's cool. If not, no matter what I say to you will make it seem "Undoubtable" or "Proof." Incidentally, these are words/ideas used by so-called "literalists" for centuries.

Sorry I've been away so long. I HAD to take a break, or my brain was gonna explode!

hi Merg...thanx and of course i respect all the opinions whatever its with me or not...im not claiming that i found the truth maybe im wrong ..after all...we cant just blindly believe in something or we will be living in a Matrix...dont u think so ?

i was just wondering if u have read what i wrote in my very own Thread i post under the name THE FINAL ANSWER ABOUT THE MATRIX (PART I)

maybe you will understand what im trying to say...i just wish any one first understand what im trying to say b4 he discus it with me so i b sure that i wont repeat it all over again

and about that Merv or anyone else...in the movie they really took care of every little word and made sure it works as clues that we can take...like as i said...in Rev. when Morfus,Trinity and Seraph went to meet Merv , the Elevator's buttons was written on it THE HELL and it went with them down , and when Merv saw them he didnt say WHAT THE HELL ..instead he said " What is IN the hell" they want to tell us that Merv is the Devil..omg what im oing im writing all what i wrote b4 !...plz read my own thread i supported my theoty with so many proofs not only fantasies from my own imagination !..and thanx anyway

Inevitability - the quotes you gave were both from the scene I mentioned. The scene with Neo and the oracle before the burly brawl. However, I must admit I have remembered one other scene where programs are mentioned: the conversation with the Indian family. If you count the bit in the first movie where Morpheus describes the agents as 'sentient programs' that's pretty much every mention of programs in the whole trilogy!

Aladdinamerican wrote:

1 - Merv is the Devil. 2 - The Arctect is Satan (lord of all the Devils and the one who challenged god) 3 - Neo is Jesus. 4 - The Oracle is the holly spirit. 5 - Smith is the AntiChrist. 6 - Seraph is the Guairding Angel. 7 - Morphus is the God of dreams for the old Rom.

There's a problem with these.

1. The devil and satan and the anti-christ are the same person in religion.
2. The oracle doesn't seem to do anything that links with the holy spirit. Trinity is a much better bet for the holy spirit because she is Neo's specific connection of love for the human race.
3. I used to think Smith was the anti-christ but I'm afraid it just doesn't work. It makes more sense that Smith is the corruption of the human race (see my post above)
4. What 'guarding angel' might this be? Guarding angel is a pretty vague term for Seraph to symbolise.
7. Why is Morpheus the only person who represents something from the Roman polytheism while all the others represent something from Christian theology?