»End of Matrix1 proves Neo's mind is still alive at endof Rev«

I know it's been talked about before on this site about the end call that Neo makes at the end of the first matrix. They show the time of the call when Cypher is talking to Trinity at the beginning of the movie and it is 2-19-98, then the time of Neo's call at the end is 9-18-99. I know that it never said actually in the movie that the sequels were 6 months after matrix, but looking at all the facts that looks about right. Also people have been saying thats just how long the events in matrix occured over. But when you see Neo right before he jacks back into the matrix to save Morpheus, look at his hair, it has barely grown long at all compared to when he was freed. Now I'm not a hair "expert", but I think that in six months his hair would grow a little bit more than that, so that proves that the events in matrix don't occur over a 6 month time period. The only explanation left is that he made the call at the end of Revolutions. I'm not saying that this means Neo is still alive though. I read in another post with someone talking about what happened to Neo after he destroyed Smith, and although he had some different ideas than I have, I did agree with him on one point

There where a lot of references to hindu religion and buddhism in the trilogy and was even talk of karma. I don't understand all the aspects of those religions but what I understand is that the main goal is to reach Nirvana, where you have no more wants or worries in the world and have a absolute "free mind"

Now throughout the whole triology, he always had one thing to fight for, his love for trinity. That is what made him choose the door when he met the architect, there love is what brought him back to life in the first matrix. But after Trinity died, he had nothing else to live for, he had no wants or worries in the world. His mind was so advanced already that he could jack into the matrix just by himself, so when he finally realizes what he has to do to destroy smith ( by letting himself be destroyed) he now has reached a type of Nirvana in the matrix, where his mind is completely free and can live on. So this is what I see, that Neo's physical body died, but his mind reached a Nirvana in the matrix where he still exists and can be found.

The hair-argument is a no-go. It is his residual self-image. He could have his hair in hippie-style if he would want it to

It was a great theory yes. He is wearing a little bit of the same clothes at the end of M1 as he wears in Mobil Ave; which could symbolize his mind being separated from his body.

But it is all false. The Brothers made a kinda nice ending in M1, because they were never sure they could continue the trilogy.

Neo is dead and the mind (read: digital-self) cannot live without the brain/body.
The only thing that might have happened is that they made a program out of Neo's mind. But I cannot think of a reason why they should do that.

I was talking about his hair in the real world, where it wasnt long at all. And I'm not saying that his mind from the real world is in the matrix, I mean yes that he is a sort of human program now, but he wasn't made by the machines, he created it by himself by reaching the nirvana

Well I think they have barbers in Zion too you know. So that's no argument at all. Would you like to see him as a bum with long hair?

The date you see at the phone call is the birthday of the wife of one of the brothers. This has been confirmed.

That's an interesting thought...about his mind becoming so much free he is able to 'write' himself as a program without needing his body. In a way it could be possible...

I think he joined the Source though. You see him glow brightly at the end. Joining the Source, is joining the energy again, which is true enlightment. I think he could be existing as a program, because you see the shape of three wings around him when he is carried away at the end. Three wings, like the Seraph has. So he might have become an angel program.
But this could also symbolic about him being an angel for the people of Zion and that he will now go to heaven.
I don't see the purpose of him being in the Matrix. Then the system would have the same problem as before: a super program trying to free lots of people.
And why didn't he fly to the park to greet his friends at the end?

I know it's dumb to go on about the hair thing, but he has long hair in Reloaded and Revolutions. A shaved head must've been the trend in people magazine or something, then the trend got old and he changed his hair style

I think that Mobil_Ave_Neo is missing the point with the hair, and forcing you, cal31, to follow. I think the important point you raised actually was in the date.

cal31 wrote:

I know it's been talked about before on this site about the end call that Neo makes at the end of the first matrix. They show the time of the call when Cypher is talking to Trinity at the beginning of the movie and it is 2-19-98, then the time of Neo's call at the end is 9-18-99. I know that it never said actually in the movie that the sequels were 6 months after matrix, but looking at all the facts that looks about right.

Actually, Morpheus says to Councillor Hamann:

Quote:

Consider what we have seen, Councillor. Consider that in the past 6 months we have freed more minds than in 6 years.

It is important to note that most of his conversation with Lock in this scene before Councillor Hamann entered focused on Neo. Immediately after he says the above, he refers to the prophecy being fulfilled. I think it's reasonably safe, therefore, to assume that he's referring to Neo here; "the past six months" would therefore most likely tell us that it has been six months since Neo became the One. (If you can think of a better explanation, I'm all ears!) We can only assume that Neo's call takes place after he becomes the One. How long after is uncertain.

So, we do the math.

From Trin's call to Cypher on 2-19-98 to Neo's call to the system on 9-18-99 is almost 1 year and 7 months to the day. That puts the call a whole 13 months over our six month benchmark. (Yes, I know. Morpheus could have been speaking generally, and the six may have been arbitrary. Or the six itself, the fact that it appears twice in one sentence, may indicate a deeper, more subtle connection to something else. Work with me. )

Furthermore, we can try to calculate how long a timeframe the sequels take from these lines:

Quote:

Thaddeus: Look where we are. Four kilometers straight down... Jue: Zion... -Final Flight of the Osiris

and:

Quote:

Ice: How fast are they moving? Niobe: Control estimates their descent at a hundred meters an hour. [offscreen]: Shit. [captain]: How deep are they? Niobe: Almost two thousand meters. -Reloaded

This means that at the start of M2, about the time Morpheus talks to Hamann in Lock's office, the sentinels are about 2 kilometers away from Zion (if they are indeed halfway there), and moving in at 100 meters/hour. At that speed, they would reach Zion (which happens in M3) in no less than 20 hours.

But that doesn't make sense, because in that same scene, Ghost says:

Quote:

Ghost: And if Niobe's right, in 72 hours there's gonna be a quarter of a million more {sentinels in the mainlines}.

and later, Morpheus says:

Quote:

Morpheus: If we return and recharge now, we can be back with inside 36 hours.

This means Neo, Morpheus and Trinity spend no more than 72 hours in Zion (and probably not more than 36 hours, because Ballard returns to Zion before the Neb leaves).

So, Thaddeus was wrong about the depth of Zion, and Zion was more than 4K below the surface, or else the numbers mean something else.

We'll get back to that. If we accept the above assumptions, that means that:

1st, Trinity's call to Cypher is hacked, and she is caught, 2-19-98

2nd, Neo becomes the One.

3rd, Six months pass and Morpheus talks to Hamann.

4th, The Machines reach Zion within a few days of Morpheus' meeting with Lock and Hamann.

5th, Neo makes his call to the system, 9-18-99. (roughly 13 months later)

If you really wanted to, you could accept this as proof that Neo's call at the end of M1 happens after the end of M3. But to me, the numbers just don't make any sense. How could the call be a whole year after he surrenders his body to the Machines?

cal31 wrote:

...he now has reached a type of Nirvana in the matrix, where his mind is completely free and can live on. So this is what I see, that Neo's physical body died, but his mind reached a Nirvana in the matrix where he still exists and can be found

.

Ah, I see. But consider this: Could it be he's not talking to the Machines on the system at all, but the humans who are still plugged in?

Personally, I think Neo is dead at the end of M3, so I don't think the call could have been any later. I feel there must be some other significance to the numbers, not involved with the story at all. For example, as Mobil_Ave_Neo said, 9-18 is the birthday of Andy Wachowski's wife.

And it could very possibly be just that mundane. However, I did find one other 9:18 in the film: when Neo's alarm finally wakes him and he arrives late for work, the time is 9:18. This may (or may not, quite frankly) suggest more importance.

Here's a good one. Jeremiah 9:18 says:

Quote:

"Let them make haste and take up a wailing for us, That our eyes may shed tears And our eyelids flow with water.

The very next scene shows the soapy water falling like the matrix code down the windows -- "flowing with water." As we plainly see that Neo was late for work, we may assume that he “made haste” to get there! That's interesting, but not very compelling by itself. However, the next verse’s reference to Zion is a little eerie!

Quote:

"For a voice of wailing is heard from Zion, 'How are we ruined! We are put to great shame, For we have left the land, Because they have cast down our dwellings.'" -Jeremiah 9:19 NASB

I know, I'm digging, but it does seem like a strong coincidence, does it not?

Anyway, according to Bill Pope and others on the Matrix Revisited DVD, the Wachowski bros always considered it a trilogy. The DVD also contains many references to the brothers' unrelenting demand for control of their work. Therefore, I am disinclined to believe that they just

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

...made a kinda nice ending in M1, because they were never sure they could continue the trilogy

The Wachowskis put those numbers in a-purpose. That much is clear. "Why," is the question. It is, after all, the only real source of power.

sorry that was so long!

That was indeed long and quite impressive too. You do your research as it seems

I believe the only explanation for Neo still being in the Matrix would be that he has indeed become a Seraph-program (highest order of angels) within the Source and in a period of about 13 months he managed to exile into the Matrix.
His coat at the last call of M1 is quite wide on his shoulders. Maybe he hides his three wings under them?
It sounds interesting but it is also very far-fetched offcourse.

But it is absolutely possible to make a 100% program out of Neo from his brain, mixing him with AI-elements.
Interesting stuff, wish it could be true though

hey, I think that's good, I've been thinking about this for along time, so I want to hear what everyone else thinks.

Firstly i would like to agree, i believe that Neo gone on to bigger and better things inside the matrix, (like becoming a seraph program "maybe" who knows)

But after reading some of the things that where said in this thread, there is something that still puzzles me, and that is this phone call at the end of M1.

To me i believe that the phone call was made after Neo became to The One. Because i get the impression that neo is talking to the system, telling it that he is going to show the rest of the people still trapped inside the matrix the truth.

As for the jacket/coat, it looks like the on he wore when he went in with Trinity to save Morpheus (meaning that the call was made prior to M2), plus he is also wearing the clothes when he went to see the orical.

And as for the question about the hair on Neo head. well all i can say is that some people grow there hair slower than others.

Nice job Annaerullo.

But don't forget that Neo's powers come from the desequilbrated equation. Once the reload is done, he looses his powers, so how could he fly ?

It is beter to assume that the scene at the end of Matrix1 occured when Neo visited the Oracle in Revolutions. Indeed, he was not jacked in when He was in the Mobil Ave, but he was once he got out of the Matrix.

So, he had to come to a phone to connect with his physical body before flying to the Oracle. He made his little speech because he already had seen his sight of the futur with the three lines.

That's a nice thought, but it doesn't work.
The W-brothers are detail-crazy. So they would have made him wear the exact same trenchcoat in M3, but they didn't.

Second he wasn't first jacked out before he had gone to the Oracle. The others jacked out and he went to the Oracle with Seraph.
In the mean while the others carry him onto the jack-chair in order to upload him back into the Real World.

Why would they ask if he is allright when he awakens after he went to the Oracle? That's because it's the first time he wakes up from his coma. Trinity checks to see if he is really allright.

A rounded end was EXACTLY what the Wachowskis were looking for at the end of the first movie. The Matrix DVD says it and if you remember, They had to wit until WB agreed before they could sign Reeves for 20 million.
Everyone knew it was a trilogy anyway. Cause they rumored it out that way. But the movie had to stand on its own before they could get the money for the next 2, thats why in the Revisited DVD they talk about getting 100 million instead of the whole 400 million to do the whole shebang. And thats why they got the nice facilities to train in, etc...

But for the hair thing....
The Hair salon is down 3 floors from the dickers and it is right next to the food court. '

But seriously, notice that while there are many indirect references there is no clear relation to the bible or any religion. To me that means that there is no relation but something that sticks in your head. I think the reason there are so many is so that you are forced to keep an open mind about the story and come up with conclusions using varied information.
Somewhat like the Oracle, giving tidbits of information so as to manipulate you by giving you the illusion that you are making a choice. When really you are reacting to a situation.
But what amazes me is the detail of which we create the illusion of the "missing" part of the story. There is a book called "You are being lied to" that starts with an essay written about reality. The jist of it is reality only exists in our minds, and that everything that we see and understand about reality has nothing to do with outside information, but memory. We look at something that we have never seen before and fill in the blanks. Thus creating our own reality as it suits us as a collective conscious. Given that the story makes no direct attemt to suggest higher power or I am amazed at this timeline thing. How cool is it that not only have we made an angel out of seraph from his name alone but we know what time NEO cuts his hair between movies. Beaudrillard definitely speaks of this very thing in Simulcra and Simulations but as the downfall of mankind. Reinventing or simulating something to a point where it no longer has meaning at all.

DesmondE wrote:

A rounded end was EXACTLY what the Wachowskis were looking for at the end of the first movie. The Matrix DVD says it and if you remember, They had to wit until WB agreed before they could sign Reeves for 20 million. Everyone knew it was a trilogy anyway. Cause they rumored it out that way. But the movie had to stand on its own before they could get the money for the next 2, thats why in the Revisited DVD they talk about getting 100 million instead of the whole 400 million to do the whole shebang. And thats why they got the nice facilities to train in, etc...

Yeah, yeah, of course, it's just that in spite of all that, I think the Wachowski bros are bold (and maybe crazy) enough to say, We need a good ending here, but let's not give too much away, in case we get to make the other two movies!

DesmondE wrote:

But seriously, notice that while there are many indirect references there is no clear relation to the bible or any religion.

Um, no. That's not exactly true. There are some very direct references, and some very clear relations to numerous religions. I don't think they need to be spelled out here and now, as many of them are pretty obvious.

DesmondE wrote:

To me that means that there is no relation but something that sticks in your head. I think the reason there are so many is so that you are forced to keep an open mind about the story and come up with conclusions using varied information. Somewhat like the Oracle, giving tidbits of information so as to manipulate you by giving you the illusion that you are making a choice. When really you are reacting to a situation.

This is a very good point. I agree. I also like your following point, about reality, and Baudrillard. This is, in my estimation, what the Mystery religions were all about, but you could only know if you were initiated. I am finding much more in common in my studies between the Mysteries and Modern Philosophy than between those same Mysteries and Modern Religion, East or West.

cal31 wrote:

I know that it never said actually in the movie that the sequels were 6 months after matrix, but...

Actually, it DOES state in a sense that Reloaded and Revolutions took place AFTER matrix one. Instance 1: Trinity is still alive, and there was no real way they could have brought her back. Instance 2: Tank and Dozer died between Matrix 1 and REloaded. Unless you have some implausible theory on how they came back, I really cant think of a good counter argument. I suppose anything is possible.

Also, in the bible, Jesus was carried off toward the heavens (The kingdom of God) And in essence, Neo was being carried off to the kingdom of god, which is, quite posibly, the matrix. The architct made mention of freeing all those who rejected the matrix, which says the humans are alive (instead of saying 'all those who will reject the matrix will be freed' he said 'all those that have rejected the matrix will be freed') This leads us to believe that since the people are alive, so aris neo. Although we didnt see people after smith freed everyone, this could lead us to believe that neo DID die. I dunno.

Well any reference to any religion that has survived today has to be indirect. As every religion is tied to yet another earlier religion. A name being similar is a reference but it is indirect because every character in the movie does not represent exactly the same character from the bible. I dont know if I said that right. I think that the reason for the references would probably be a reflection on the purpose of the referenced character and not the character himself. Like references to Neo as jesus or buddha, meaning that he does not represent what those characters did in their lives, but their purpose which was to enlighten or free them from something they he had already been free from. Which used in the context of the Matrix is an indirect reference.

Speaking of Tank and Dozier, Dozier died in the first movie. I heard somewhere that tank is involved in a breach of contract lawsuit against the WB's because he was supposed to be in the last 2 movies. Has anyone else heard this?

DesmondE,

Yeah, I heard this from a friend of mine. Supposedly, Marcus Chong (Tank; and yes, it is Tommy Chong's son) was approached and reportedly signed on for all three BEFORE the first was made. Following the huge success of the Matrix, he felt he was being underpaid and threatened to walk out on his contract if his demands weren't met. WB and Silver felt his demands were unreasonable and told him no, then killed him off. Chong sued on grounds of breach of contract but, from what I hear, it sounds like he'll get nothing. The reasoning behind this is that since he claimed that he'd walk if his demands weren't met it would be considered a breach of contract ON HIS PART, on grounds of abandonment of contract. Therefore, it is assumed that since WB/Silver didn't meet those demands, Chong was free from his contract, and therefore open game in the script. Mind you, this is my friend, who is a contract lawyer in LA, telling me this. So, I don't know if I have the full gist of it. But, I hope it helps.

His contract really doesnt matter much to the matrix, and for all I care, tank couldve been in the movie for a brief amount of time, and jumped out of the nebuchadnezzars window in a tutu, landed on a spike, and recited abraham lincolns four score speech, and died, but that doesnt change the fact tank is dead in reloaded and revolutions storywise. He is dead and that occurred straight after Matrix 1, henceforth reloaded and revolutions being after matrix 1.

I agree with you Mobil_Ave_Neo, the clothes should be the same.
But what I meant about the jack-in, is that Neo had loaded his mind into his RSI without leaving the matrix because he wanted to see the Oracle.

Anyway, I don't think that the end of Matrix1 was happenig at the end of Revolutions (a pity, tough, it would have been a great idea).
So it means that Neo has trained his powers during more than 1 year... wich is very long.

Yknow, I bet theres something on the matrix Revolutions "3D Timeline" that says something about ALL of matrix 1 being before Relo and Revo. If it says otherwise, congratulations, youve come up with a grand ol theory. Im gonna buy Revo today so we'll just find out.