»merovingian symbolism«

kringlebotten wrote:

The gnostic christianity says the God i the old testament (OT) is not the same as God in the new testament (NT).

Heh. Have you read the book? They have a good point. The OT God is quite vengeful and jealous, whereas the NT God is a God of Love and Forgiveness. Hard to deny that.

kringlebotten wrote:

They say that in GT, God is the serpent (Satan) which gave the knowledge of salvation to Adam & Eve. They say that God (in OT) is a evil, despotic, violent monster, and that the serpent is God. They say that Jesus was the messenger from this serpent god. They say that God = Satan, Satan = God.

WHOAH! Back up. First point, okay, fair, not too far off, but the Jesus thing is a little bit misinformed. To the Gnostics, Jesus was the Saviour, just as He was (and is) to the Literalists; Christ came to save us from the jealous Jehovah (Whom many sects called the Demiurgus [Demiurge])... Lemme try to break it down:

The Creator of this world is called the Demiurge, the Great Architect (hmm) and in his arrogance, he declares himself the God of all, the one true god. He is ignorant of the fact that he himself was created out of the Love of the ONE true god (which is where I'll leave it, because afterward it gets pretty confusing). This Demiurge, then, is the god of the OT, Jehovah, the God of the Jews, jealous and vengeful. The serpent is (alternately) the goddess of wisdom (Sophia), or the Logos (Christ) who tries to impart the truth of the Mystery of life to humanity. God throws Adam and Eve out of the garden for this transgression. The rest you pretty much know.

According to Gnostic teaching, Jesus came to save mankind from the tyranny of the Demiurge, and show us the path back to the ONE true god. Not all Gnostic sects used this mythology. Some of them acknowledged the authority of the God of the Jews, while others rejected it. The common thread, though, is that the Christ is the perfect example of what we should strive to discover about God and about ourselves, and the world around us. As Agent Zero succinctly put,

Agent Zero wrote:

the world is a mystery.

I like Merv's connections to the 7 sins; not bad. I also like the idea of the Twins as Castor and Pollux; but I don't see how it really fits, since the mythology doesn't really follow. 'Course, since we don't really know much about the Pale Twins, that could be my mistake, eh?

Actually, I think the Twins refer to another Gnostic idea: that of the syzygy. It's a Greek word which goes back to the Mystery schools that means, 'one, necessarily appearing as two.' In general, the Mysteries' syzygies consist of essence and appearance, but I think the Wachowskis may have meant to show the basic idea in a more direct manner. 'We owe you for that.' and 'We are getting aggravated.' 'Yes, we are.' indicate to me that these guys are definitely separate individuals, yet connected by one mind, or something to that effect: One, appearing as Two.

I don't know all that much about the 'secret societies,' but I definitely don't buy into the conspiracy crap. There have been, and are now, I reckon, many conspiracies waged against the knowledge of the masses, but some of the conspiracy theories put forth about the Freemasons, the Priory of Zion, the Knights Templar, the Merovingian kings, et al., are just too hard for me to swallow. The name of the Merovingian in the Matrix probably refers to the Merovingian legends, i.e., keeping the Holy Grail, and any 'secret conspiracies' should be taken as simply part of that legend. IN PARTICULAR, the so-called 'bloodline of Christ.' I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and I'm just not convinced. There's just so much similarity in the Christ myths to the various other godman myths of antiquity, that any actual fact in the stories, any real biography of an actual man on whom the stories might be based, is washed away. So if there's no man, there's no blood. And once again, all that's left is allegory!

And just to throw it out there (because some of you know my devotion to my study of the Mysteries, even though I know it's mostly a lost cause to try to get anyone to listen!) The Holy Grail, and the quest to find it, is probably just another allegory for the 'Way Out'--the quest for enlightenment; the Holy Grail would then be the always-elusive gnosis, nirvana, the reunion of the soul (psyche) with the ONE. (and, I'm still working on that Matrix Mysteries website, AG and others, so please be patient with me!)

I'll be waiting, annaerullo.

And I am interested....I've been reading about perennial philosophy lately and `The Tao of Physics'.

that a topic i started so long ago is still being discussed

and as for the discussion

i must say that i do like the deadly sins analogy

Archangel, thank you for showing me this!

Did anyone mention that Persephone equates to the Merovingian being Hades, or Pluto? Ruler of the Underworld, or Hel(l)?

By the way, this is the coauthor Archangel mentioned that came up with the constellation theory...

Comet wrote:

Did anyone mention that Persephone equates to the Merovingian being Hades, or Pluto? Ruler of the Underworld, or Hel(l)?

Yes, at

I knew my attempt to be educated would fall miserably flat...

[quote="Die Fledermaus"]

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Not just possible, it IS a reference to Rennes-le-Chateau. The Merovingian's chateau looks like it.

Yeah, I figured. Also the devil reference could refer to Asmodeus, the Keeper Of Secrets. There is a big statue of this demon in Rennes-le-Chateau with a caption that translates out to "This Place Is Terrible." It is rumored that secrets proving a connection between the Merovingians and the bloodline of Christ were concealed there, and are still hidden there.

One similarity which most likely has been mentioned

Jesus blindfolded & struck 18:22-24

Neo and Angent Smith's fight in which Neo's eyes are blinded
and them blindfolded Revolutions

The Merovingian, to me, is one of the most fascinating characters in the whole trilogy. At one point, I had started writing a prequel to the movies which took place at the time of the Second Renaissance. One of the main characters was the Merovingian, who was a totally different type of character than how he is in the movies (per Persephone's reference to him being similar to Neo when they first came to the Matrix). I explained that he and Persephone were actually the robot emissaries that you see in the Animatrix episode where two robots come to the United Nations wearing human clothing, and the humans attack them.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to respond on this thread is because of the seemingly dual nature of the Merovingian. The evil side is obvious, because that's what we're hammered with in the movies. But then there are hints at a good side. There's Persephone's reference I mentioned above, of course, but there's also the whole connection with the bloodline of Christ via the French Merovingian kings. So when I was writing the prequel, I saw the Merovingian as someone who started out as a good person, and over time became what we see him as in the movies.

This duality makes me feel a little more sympathetic toward the Merovingian in the sense that I believe he is destined for something positive rather than as the selfish lord of the Exiles. It would probably take a lot to find those long-lost heroic and noble traits in him, but I believe they're there. Or maybe I've just watched the Star Wars movies too many times.

Any thoughts on that?

The Merv aint Anakin, Feral.

Why don't you use the clues we're given and deduce why he was created and when and then you will probably discern what he is now and why?

You notice he's not on anyones side don't you. Now why do you suppose that is?

"Pompous prick!...[later] she wasn't kissing your face, my love."

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The Merv aint Anakin, Feral.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the idea of an evil character being reformed is a timeless concept. And mythologies, like the Matrix, are all about using timeless ideas to create a new myth. I have no problem thinking along these lines, since the Wachowski Brothers borrowed from all over the place, including existing myths, religions and philosophies. Anakin is not the only mythological character to have undergone a reformation, he's just a famous one who also happens to be in a series of sci-fi movies.

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Why don't you use the clues we're given and deduce why he was created and when and then you will probably discern what he is now and why?

To what clues are you referring?

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You notice he's not on anyones side don't you. Now why do you suppose that is?

I'm not sure what you're hinting at.

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timeless concept

A timeless concept, presented in mythology = a meme!

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the Matrix, are all about using timeless ideas to create a new myth.

I hear that a lot. Another perspective is that the W's took existing memes to say something about today's world, which uses existing memes to create that which the W's wrote about - The Matrix. The real one.

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I have no problem thinking along these lines...Anakin is not the only mythological character to have undergone a reformation...

Excellent point! So when you write about the Merv using the same literary devices as the W's themselves, you will make something different from all the comics and other would-be matrix stories that lack subtext and significance. All you have to do is line up your memes with theirs and your work might make it into the canon. I would so much like to see what you do with that.

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To what clues are you referring?

1. "A dangerous program, one of the oldest of us..." So he may have been around about the time of the first Matrix or maybe earlier.

2. "When we first came here...he was different...he was like you[Neo]" That combined with the time period reflected in the matrix ("here") at the time and his current name could provide a clue as to his purpose. Of course, I could be wrong and this paragraph should be stricken from the record.

3. Regarding Cain & Abel: "They're from a much older version of the Matrix."

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A timeless concept, presented in mythology = a meme!

Now that's a word I didn't know anything about until I started getting involved with Matrix forums. I hadn't seen it in a while and forgot all about it. But you're totally right, that word sums up the idea better than my clumsy attempt.

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All you have to do is line up your memes with theirs and your work might make it into the canon.

As you know, that's much easier said than done. They arrived at their understanding after much reading and study, and I'm not sure I would be as willing to undergo that. I'm most interested in Bible theology, and that's where I put the majority of my focus--when I'm not focusing on the Matrix, that is.

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I would so much like to see what you do with that.

Anything I could produce would be much more hollow than anything the Wachowski Brothers have accomplished with their Matrix storyline. I struggled for months with the prequel I was writing, and it was kind of silly at best. It's probably because writing about serious things in fiction is not my strong suit. I much prefer to write humor, although that's a side I don't really reveal at all on these forums.

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1. "A dangerous program, one of the oldest of us..." So he may have been around about the time of the first Matrix or maybe earlier.

I come to the same conclusion. At the moment I believe that he might have been created for Matrix version 2.0, which was supposed to reflect the "varying grotesqueries" of the human nature. I take that to mean that this version was hellish, as opposed to Matrix 1.0, which was supposed to be like heaven. I picture it being somewhat like the Middle Ages, complete with werewolves, vampires and other oddities, with the Merovingian the ruler over it all. I imagine that these programs were not Exiles then, because they were created with the express purpose of playing the part of mankind's worst nightmares. And when Matrix 3.0 was created, they were all slated for deletion, but escaped to the newest version. Once in the Matrix, the Merovingian simply recreated the empire he'd had within the previous version.

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2. "When we first came here...he was different...he was like you[Neo]" That combined with the time period reflected in the matrix ("here") at the time and his current name could provide a clue as to his purpose. Of course, I could be wrong and this paragraph should be stricken from the record.

This is the one quote about the Merovingian that fascinates me the most, and I explained why in my previous post. I always assumed the similarity to Neo she referred to had to do with his character, since she had just finished complaining about his arrogance. I know many people take that to mean that he was a previous One, but I won't even bother responding to that theory.

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3. Regarding Cain & Abel: "They're from a much older version of the Matrix."

See my explanation of your first quote.

No. He was no previous One. You're right about that.

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Matrix version 2.0, which was supposed to reflect the "varying grotesqueries" of the human nature. I take that to mean that this version was hellish,

I hear that alot to but notice the Arc said that it was designed, based on your history to reflect...yada, yada, yada. Now I ask the proponents of this theory, what period of history resembled a fictional fiery place of torment? I can't think of one. But after describing the first matrix being the "perfect human world" and expressing his belief that humans define their existence through "misery and suffering" (compare with "varying grotesqueries"), he said it was redesigned to "this, the peak of your civilisation". Now I believe the only difference between Matrix 2.0 and 3.0 is the presence of exits -> the ability to leave it at will. This is the choice everyone keeps posting about lately. It also is just an illusion created between zose with power (Oracle/Architect) and zose without (humanity) because if you think because you woke up from the Matrix that you're really free, there are 250,000 reasons coming to prove you wrong.

If Merv was ever like Neo (messianic?), it is likely that he would have been so in 1.0, which could also be supported by the fact that someone with a name and personality like "Seraph" would have been with him. It might fit in with this that after the failure of 1.0 and the probable attempted deletion of both of them that Seraph became a "Judas" and forsook him for the Oracle or whatever. while he became a Merovingian (not a messiah, but a name formerly associated with one or associated with a former one). It may fit but I won't be dogmatic about presenting it. I don't know why I even wrote it. Oh, now I remember - memes!

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Now that's a word I didn't know anything about until I started getting involved with Matrix forums. I hadn't seen it in a while and forgot all about it.

Ask RainKing. He knows.

I agree it isn't a hell, not like version 1.0 was a heaven... I use it from time to time, just to give version 2.0 'a' name. But never take it literal when I call the secons matrix 'hell'...

And like you said yourself, the 'only' additon from 2.0 to 3.0 is the illusion of choice, the illusion of the ability to leave.

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If Merv was ever like Neo (messianic?), it is likely that he would have been so in 1.0 <..> It may fit but I won't be dogmatic about presenting it. I don't know why I even wrote it. Oh, now I remember - memes!

As long as the bro's don't come out with the story about the Origin of Merovingian, Seraph, Smith, and the history and relation between them, we'll never know. And until that happens, there is indeed no need to be dogmatic about it

Your intepretation about Merovingian (being from 1.0, or maybe from before the matrix-era) is quite the same as mine actually...

Thanks, I don't know what to say. Lol!

Clockwork are you a Wachowski?

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Now I believe the only difference between Matrix 2.0 and 3.0 is the presence of exits -> the ability to leave it at will. This is the choice everyone keeps posting about lately.

I know we talked this one to death already, but I still have to disagree with what the "choice" is referring to. I believe that the choice, as the Merovingian described, is an illusion between those with power (Architect) and those without (humans plugged into the Matrix).

If the choice referred to the actual exits themselves, then every time someone rejected the Matrix, they'd immediately get to leave, no problem. Their choice would be honored. But as we see, their choice to reject the Matrix, by and large, is NOT honored. If only a tiny fraction of those rejecting the Matrix actually make it out, then the choice is not really related to the exits, is it? The choice is an illusion, because even though you may be presented with two options, choosing the "wrong" option does not guarantee you anything. In fact, it's completely dependent on external factors (Zion rebels giving you a redpill) before your choice is honored. And that's unlikely to happen, as evidenced by the low population of Zion. It would seem that 99% of those who reject the Matrix (not to be confused with the 99% who accept the Matrix) don't ever make it out. That doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.

Most of 'em eventually make it out, but right mental rejection doen't instanty translate into leaving anymore that faith instantly translates into works.

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Most of 'em eventually make it out

No, most of them stay stuck in the Matrix their whole lives. If 1% of 1 billion reject the Matrix, that's 10 million people. That's not even close to the 250,000 population of Zion, which is not even fully comprised of people from the Matrix, since many of them are born naturally. So the vast majority make the choice to reject the Matrix, yet their choice is never honored. Instead, they get to wander the Matrix their whole lives with a splinter in their mind and never find out the truth.

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but right mental rejection doen't instanty translate into leaving anymore that faith instantly translates into works.

That's my point exactly. The choice introduced in Matrix 3.0 is an illusory choice. It's given to everybody, and most people make the choice to stay. If you make the choice to leave, you're still stuck. Therefore, the choice to leave was an illusion. Now, if you happen to be lucky enough to be one of the few that's given a redpill, that's a different matter entirely. If the choice was real as opposed to illusory, the redpill wouldn't even be necessary in the first place because you'd be let out immediately. That's what the difference is between Matrix 3.0 and Matrix 4.0--anyone who wants to leave can now do so. You're describing Matrix 4.0, not 3.0.

*sighs*

Okay.

But I bet Zion's population didn't jump so dramitically after the Arc promised to free all those "who want out" (Orc)

These things have to be done progressively. With more Zionists leaving you have more ppl to help others out otherwise what? If they were to leave with no ship there to pick 'em up, they'll just drown in a pool of poo. And that's not good.

Feral Boy wrote:

That's my point exactly. The choice introduced in Matrix 3.0 is an illusory choice.

I thought this was something that is established already more 2 years now ... At least I hope no-one still thinks that the choice given to the podperson is a 'real' choice, but realises it is an illusion of choice, and I think intell was referring to the illusion of choice 'everyone is talking about lately'



And, no, as far as I know I'm no Wachowski

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These things have to be done progressively. With more Zionists leaving you have more ppl to help others out otherwise what? If they were to leave with no ship there to pick 'em up, they'll just drown in a pool of poo. And that's not good.

You're right, it's not good. And there are several things like that they barely address in the game the Matrix Online.

For instance, they talk about how with the destruction of most of the hovercrafts they now have built gigantic hoverbarges that are supposed to house all these new redpills (i.e. players who are playing the game).

The stupid part about that is that as a redpill you now have the option of being loyal not just to Zion but to the Machines or the Merovingian as well. Redpills can now be at odds with each other since they're not all just for Zion anymore. That's all fine and good, but the problem with that in reference to the hoverbarges is that we're supposed to believe that these redpills somehow leave each other alone in the Real World while trying to kill each other when they're in the Matrix. Ridiculous!

My suggestion was that they explain that if you decide to become loyal to the Machines, your physical body becomes reconnected to the power plant. You would get to keep all your memories, it's just that if you're going to support the Machines in purpose, then you might as well be supplying power to the Matrix while doing so. If you're really supportive of the Machines' cause, you wouldn't have a problem with that.

As far as the Merovingian redpill supporters, they should build their own version of Zion, where they are geographically located at some other place but still close enough to hardlines so they can access the Matrix.

So then you would have Zion supporters in Zion, Machine supporters in the power plant, and Merovingian supporters in their own place. And this doesn't even require any changes whatsoever to the game because these are all things happening in the Real World. All they'd have to do is post a short paragraph on the official website proclaiming that this is what's going on.

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I thought this was something that is established already more 2 years now ... At least I hope no-one still thinks that the choice given to the podperson is a 'real' choice, but realises it is an illusion of choice, and I think intell was referring to the illusion of choice 'everyone is talking about lately'

I think what I should have said is that the inclusion of exits is not the only difference between the first two version of the Matrix and the third one. My apologies to intell for discounting what he had brought up. You are exactly right when you say that actual exits are a new feature. I'm calm now. Breathe in, breathe out...

In the first two versions, humans had the capability to accept and reject the Matrix. They showed their ability to accept it by living out their life. They showed their ability to reject it by trying to wake up. So in every version of the Matrix, including the first two, humans were able to reject the Matrix.

What's different in that regard starting with Matrix 3.0 is that a choice is presented to them. Before that, there was nothing to interrupt a person as they began the process of rejecting the Matrix. They'd made up their mind it wasn't real, and they began trying to wake up. In Matrix 3.0, they introduced something that acted as a barricade to that scenario. That barricade came in the form of a question. Before, nobody was ever asked whether or not they wanted to accept the Matrix. It was just taken for granted that they would--which is where the Architect screwed up. To placate the masses, you have to make them feel like 1) there's a choice involved 2) they made the choice.

You can kind of see Neo fighting this even when he's talking with the Oracle in the second movie. She offers for him to sit down, and he tries to make sure that she understands that he'll do whatever HE wants to do. When he calms down, he sits down anyway, but makes sure she understands it's not because of some fate crap, but because he WANTED to. Feeling like you're doing something because you feel that you chose it is so vital to human experience.