»Is the Oracle really a program? Don't overlook the facts!«

A possible explanation that you are overlooking ...

Is that the Oracle is not really a program at all. I assume you conclude that She is, based on her conversation with Neo in Reloaded and also Neo's confrontation with the Architect. However, if you remember, it appears that she tells Neo that he's not the One in the first movie, when re-watching that scene shows that she does not actually ever tell him that he's not the One -- when he says that he's not, she merely allows him to believe it.

The same idea could underline their conversation in Reloaded. Neo starts to believe that the Oracle is a program, and She merely allows Him to believe it.

What other evidence exists that the Oracle is not a program? Well, Neo never sees the matrix in her. This is not an extremely viable piece of evidence on its own, because there are plenty of other characters/programs that Neo never attempts to see the matrix in. However ... he DOES attempt to see the matrix within the Oracle's bodyguard, and he does NOT. He sees a white glowing energy, not the matrix. Also, there is a small reference in the first Matrix (possibly in the original screenplay), that if Neo is really the One, he can defeat ANY program with ease. Neo does not even come close to defeating the Oracle's bodyguard -- in fact, it looks like the bodyguard was absolutely toying with him in their fight.

So ... if the Oracle and her bodyguard aren't programs, what are they? Obviously some spiritual forms that somehow transcend the physical limitations of the matrix, much like God and angels are believed to transcend the limitations of the physical Universe. The Oracle is God and her bodyguard is an angel. They are outside the bounds of the matrix. This would explain why the Oracle sees the future, seems to be omniscient, and many other questions you ponder about Her. Want more evidence that this explanation may hold weight? The name of the Oracle's bodyguard is Seraph. As in "seraphin," as in an angel.

Also, you question why Morpheus contradicts himself by saying on the one hand "everything begins with choice" and then saying "everything that happened happened for a reason." However, to assume that this is a contradiction is a misunderstanding of basic Christian theology. The line between free will (choices) and predestination is not so clear as many seem to believe. Think of it this way ... in Reloaded, the Oracle tells Neo, "You've already made your choice, now you just have to find out why you made it." Thus, she is telling Neo that he DOES have choices to make that are meaningful, but no choice that he makes is going to be a surprise to Her, because she transcends the physical limitations of time ("sees the future" in layman's terms). Just as God is outside of the physical constructs of time (sees past, present, and future simultaneously) and knows everything that is going to happen, the Oracle sees every choice Neo is ever going to make. Does that make Neo's choices any less meaningful? Only if you assume that the Oracle (God) will physically intervene and make the choices for Neo (us) when he (we) are about to make a "wrong" one. That definitely goes against the doctrine of free will, however, and I think is an inaccurate portrayal of the relationship between the Oracle and Neo (God and man). The Oracle can and does give Neo help and advice, but She NEVER makes a choice for him, just as God will give us guidance if we ask for it, but He never makes a choice for us.

So, Morpheus is right in both his statements. Everything DOES start with choice, but from the perspective of the Oracle (who is outside of time), a path can be set for Neo's life based on the choices She KNOWS he will make. Everything will happen for a reason.

adan_labios wrote:

I assume you conclude that She is, based on her conversation with Neo in Reloaded and also Neo's confrontation with the Architect

Not only:
Neo [Matrix 1]: "So is this the same Oracle that made the prophecy?"
Morpheus: "Yes. She's very old. She's been with us since the beginning."
Neo: "The beginning...?"
Morpheus: "Of the resistance."

and

Morpheus: "I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines. I remember that for 100 years they have send their armies to destroy us. And after a century of war"

Thus she is probably 120 years of age.

Quote:

The same idea could underline their conversation in Reloaded. Neo starts to believe that the Oracle is a program, and She merely allows Him to believe it.

Well, not exactly:

The Oracle: "Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way."
Neo: "You're not human, are you?"
The Oracle: "Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that."
Neo: "If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine world. So is he."
The Oracle: "So far, so good."
Neo: "But if that's true, that can mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control... I suppose the most obvious question is, how can I trust you?"
The Oracle: "Bingo!"

and

Oracle: "Two programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my original shell to the Merovingianingian."

How can she be a god?

Quote:

What other evidence exists that the Oracle is not a program? Well, Neo never sees the matrix in her.

But you said it yourself. It is not a real argument.

Quote:

Also, you question why Morpheus contradicts himself by saying on the one hand "everything begins with choice" and then saying "everything that happened happened for a reason." However, to assume that this is a contradiction is a misunderstanding of basic Christian theology.

1) Thank you very much, that you have read my page that far. I really mean it!
2) But my full objection is bigger:
Morpheus: "Everything begins with choice."
...
Morpheus: "What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way."
What the heck? Morpheus not only contradicts himself. He also tells the same thing as Smith...
Smith: "Whatever happened, happened for a reason."
...and even in Matrix 1 when talking to Neo's freeing...
Morpheus: "I'm sorry [for freeing you out of the Matrix though you are so old]. I did what I did because I had to"
Well, well. The great Morpheus, the believer of choice, is a disciple of foreordination.

Interesting connection to predestination/free-will. I hadn't thought about that. The oracle was the creator of the matrix, however, she wasn't the creator of the humans. But maybe Neo isn't human and therefore she can be God to him. I don't know... let me think about it and reply later.

stinkz wrote:

Interesting connection to predestination/free-will. I hadn't thought about that. The oracle was the creator of the matrix, however, she wasn't the creator of the humans. But maybe Neo isn't human and therefore she can be God to him. I don't know... let me think about it and reply later.

No. Reply now.

I think you might be mistaken (obviously, how can we know for sure) in taking everything that certain characters say at face value, i.e. Morpheus. When Morpheus says that the Oracle has been around since the beginning of the Resistance, he technically wouldn't be wrong (if you assume the Oracle has been around FOREVER), but even if something he says does seem to contradict that theory (such as alluding that she is approximately 120 years old), that doesn't mean he is right about it.

People go around making a lot of wild claims about God every day, but that doesn't mean we must take each claim as truth and create a new view of God based on the totality of statements that have been made about him.

Also, look again at the dialogue between the Oracle and Neo ...

The Oracle: "Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way."
Neo: "You're not human, are you?"
The Oracle: "Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that."
Neo: "If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine world. So is he."
The Oracle: "So far, so good."
Neo: "But if that's true, that can mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control... I suppose the most obvious question is, how can I trust you?"
The Oracle: "Bingo!"



"So far, so good" does not equate with "Hey Neo -- I am a computer program," based on past experience with the Oracle (namely, the first movie). I stick by my original claim that she is merely allowing Neo to believe what he needs to believe at the time, and she is not a program.


Anyway, all this was just put out there for pure enjoyment purposes. As a huge Matrix fan, I really enjoyed reading your site, and just thought I'd contribute some of my own humble ideas as to possible explanations behind the movie. From reading your site, I can gather that you have undoubtedly seen the movies way more than I have, and I do recognize possible holes in my arguments. Peace to all, and I can't wait for Revolutions!!!

You could possibly be right, Neo has never seen anything like Seraph before, and would therefore trust the Oracle, because that is what he has been taught by morpheus.

As for the thing about The Oracle never actually telling Neo that he isnt the one, that may also be true. But she also says "Maybe in your next lifetime" or something like that, then of course, at the end he dies, but when he comes back to life, it is his "next" lifetime, therefore he is now the one.[/quote]

DreamWorld wrote:

...As for the thing about The Oracle never actually telling Neo that he isnt the one, that may also be true. But she also says "Maybe in your next lifetime" or something like that, then of course, at the end he dies, but when he comes back to life, it is his "next" lifetime, therefore he is now the one.

One thing I've noticed is often overlooked about the Oracle conversation in M1 is what she says before the whole "I'm not the one" bit.

"Being the one is like being in love, no-one can tell you when you're in love, you just know".

Which makes anything she says to him about being the one after that irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if she says it, implies it or just acknowledges his expectations, she's already told him that it's not for her to say.

adan_labios wrote:

A possible explanation that you are overlooking ... Is that the Oracle is not really a program at all. I assume you conclude that She is, based on her conversation with Neo in Reloaded and also Neo's confrontation with the Architect. However, if you remember, it appears that she tells Neo that he's not the One in the first movie, when re-watching that scene shows that she does not actually ever tell him that he's not the One -- when he says that he's not, she merely allows him to believe it. The same idea could underline their conversation in Reloaded. Neo starts to believe that the Oracle is a program, and She merely allows Him to believe it.

so far, so good ...

adan_labios wrote:

What other evidence exists that the Oracle is not a program? Well, Neo never sees the matrix in her. This is not an extremely viable piece of evidence on its own, because there are plenty of other characters/programs that Neo never attempts to see the matrix in. However ... he DOES attempt to see the matrix within the Oracle's bodyguard, and he does NOT. He sees a white glowing energy, not the matrix. Also, there is a small reference in the first Matrix (possibly in the original screenplay), that if Neo is really the One, he can defeat ANY program with ease. Neo does not even come close to defeating the Oracle's bodyguard -- in fact, it looks like the bodyguard was absolutely toying with him in their fight.

so far, so good !!

adan_labios wrote:

So ... if the Oracle and her bodyguard aren't programs, what are they? Obviously some spiritual forms that somehow transcend the physical limitations of the matrix, much like God and angels are believed to transcend the limitations of the physical Universe. The Oracle is God and her bodyguard is an angel.

oh oh... it was going so good

Oracle see only the "programmed short future", not "any" future.
Thats why she doesnt know what happens when neo goes into the door-made-of-lighe (and she asks about it), because this is part of "unprogrammed future", and exactly the point that neo makes a choice (left/right door)

Making one character a "god" is a very easy-simplistic solution for the story.
It would be easy something like "The mailman that brings the cel-phone to Tomas
Anderson in his office, in M1, is God, and made all of this just for fun. This is
too simplistic.

But I like your idea that oracle might not be a program. Indeed it could be a
human that decided to get back to the matrix (like cypher did) but not forgetting
everything, and just developing her powers.

I had actually never thought about this before. Mostly because I knew from the FIRST movie she was a program.

Well She's not human....
if she wasn't a program what could she be?

We never get a chance to see her code. All we know is that she probably looks like Seraph.
"are there other programs like you?"
She says"
"ah... well, not like me"
She also said"
"[the Merovingian] is one of the oldest of us"

I think she's refering to EXILE PROGRAMS or the ORIGINAL PROGRAMS of the Matrix, remember the architect said the mother of the Matrix was an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche (though this doesn't prove he's refering the Oracle)
It seems the machines assing HUMAN characteristics to the machines according to their "purpose" or job. The question is... WHO IS THIS PROGRAM THAT POSSES INTUITION... I beleive the Oracle

We have also seen SENTIENT programs like the Agents, who SENSE or PERCEIVE within the Matrix what is going on, pressuming through their in-ear receivers. Something that Smith might have lost, remember how Smith had to power to ORDER an ATTACK by sentinels... does he still have the power?

I'M NOT TRYING TO BEAT THE IDEA DOWN, but I find isuficient evidence.

now to aid YOUR point:
The oracle says she is here because she loves candy, and she is always seen drinking, baking, smoking or in this case eating... why would a program need to do this?

but... here's the flip side:
Merovingian answered that:
"for sake of appearances"

WORD

Have you noticed that smith glows in yellow in the m3 trailers, much like seraph.