»Neo, the One and the code«

I agree with 'the anomaly' on the AI.
These are not just programs running on a Windows-system. These are programs based on futuristic AI. They can evolve themselves; they learn along the way.

Programs can most certainly be given an alternate purpose.
The Architect's first purpose was to create the Matrix, now his purpose is to maintain it/balance it.
The Oracle's first purpose was to investigate the human psyche. Now her purpose is to guide and lead the 1% non-accepters by using the knowledge she gathered during the furfillment of her initial purpose.

We hear Rama-Kandra say that he consulted the Oracle. We don't know exactly when he did this.
I think the Oracle might have anticipated (long before the system itself did) that Neo is going to make a huge change and that Sati will be needed in this change. The Oracle was the only program who BELIEVED in Neo. She did not even know, she just had an INTUITION about it (intuitve program?).
I am beginning to think that she somehow manipulated Rama and Kamala to create a program out of love.
I still think Sati was needed to carry the anomaly-code. The One himself has died and he never chose to disseminate his code into the Source in order to start off a new equation. By the joining of Neo and Smith the anomaly-variable is now as a (balanced) whole again. So the balanced anomaly-variable is now with Sati in order to stabilize the equation. The choice for Zion is now a valid choice and won't unbalance the equation anymore.

The Oracle manipulated both programs and humans to achieve peace and balance.

To the anomaly:

This is Eric, JamesWI's colleague.

The "mother of the matrix" is not a purpose. The "mother of the matrix" is an analogous phrase used by the Architect to describe the purpose possessed by the "mother". The "mother", as portrayed by JamesWI's fact-based assertions and evidence, is Sati.

Ever since our days of believing in storks, we all know that in order to create a child it takes a mother and a father. If the "child" in this case is the Matrix, the "Father" is the Architect. Yet, as the Architect himself so adequately stated, he alone could not successfully create a simulation sufficient to control the humans in the power plant. It took a program less bound by the parameters of perfection to stumble upon the solution to the problem encountered by the Architect in designing a successful system. This program's purpose was initially to study certain aspects of the human psyche. Together, the creative abilities of the Architect and the investigative abilities of Sati realized the machine's objective of creating a simulation that would be accepted by the majority of the "plugged-in" humans. You ask JamesWI to make up his mind, asking him whether she is a program that studies humans or the mother of the matrix. Yet if one thinks carefully about what I have written, it can be clearly seen that Sati is only the "mother of the matrix" because of her purpose, which is to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.

You say that JamesWI's post was full contradictions. That analysis is flawed. You would do well to again read James WI's post and then compare that to what you said that he wrote.

Sati had one purpose, yet a number of paramters. This is a characteristic of programs. As the Oracle said, programs can do things they aren't supposed to. These actions, such as demonstrated by the Twins, are not their sole purpose; it is merely within the given program's parameters. Therefore, you are correct in stating that they are not simply confined to actions implied in their purpose.


Nevertheless, we are given no evidence that Sati had no purpose. As you quoted, "every program created must have a purpose. If not it is deleted." While you say that this clearly suggests to you that Sati never had a purpose, I see no reason why this should be so clear. While it is rather evident that every program created must have a purpose, it is not clear that a program can be created without a purpose. I believe the fallacy that Sati was created without a purpose stems from the flawed view of her "parents", and that she was created out of a "loving" relationship between them. As is stated in the movies, relationships between programs are merely analogous to human relations; they do not imply the exact same thing. Therefore it is very possible that Rama and Kamala had nothing to do whatsoever with the creation of Sati. Though Rama calls her his daughter, we must remember that "daughter" is just a word, and what is important is not the definition word, but what the connection of the word implies. While programs are indeed created by other programs, there is no evidence that programs have an overarching paternal and familial structure based on generational "family trees." It is very possible that both Rama and Sati were created by the same program, and that the father-daughter relationship implies an unknown connection. I am not stating this as fact, I am simply offering a theory demonstrating that there is no evidence that Rama and Kamala created Sati, and that she was certainly created with a purpose.

The fact of the matter is, the Oracle believed that Sati was important to the future of mankind and the machines. If her purpose was indeed to study humans, this would explain the Oracle's objective in this matter. If her purpose was indeed to study humans, in light of the machines knowing that Neo's choice would result in the end of humanity, this would explain why Sati was going to be deleted. Our theory, while yet to be proven by the Brothers, is based on facts. Other ideas, such as that Sati is the new carrier of the anomaly code, that she is the new One, that she is to be the new Persephone to Neo's Merovingian, that she is a symbol of hope of peace, that she is evidence of the machines feeling love, and so on and so on are interesting theories, but they are based on blind speculation, and have no factual basis evident in the trilogy,game, or Animatrix.

Facts, folks. JamesWI and I am interested in facts. Others can feel free to speculate, but since we want to understand the plot and not just merely exercise our imaginations, we will remain married to theories based on fact.

First of all you don't 'own' this thread.
If we want to elaborate on theories (imaginary or not), we do it as we please.
This forum is meant to share thoughts, ideas and theories. Offcourse facts are fine, but they are not always at hand.

Your so called 'facts' aren't 100% air-tight too. So please don't be so arrogant.

I still think that the Oracle is the mother. And Sati is the reincarnation of this divine mother. She is needed to maintain the 'improved' choice-system, just like the Oracle was needed to maintain the 'old' choice-system.
Just like the Merovingian has many symbols/references in his character, Sati has this also.
So don't be prejudiced with your so called personal 'facts'.

Your ideas have been wonderfull and have created an interesting discussion though. Thanks for that!

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

First of all you don't 'own' this thread. If we want to elaborate on theories (imaginary or not), we do it as we please. This forum is meant to share thoughts, ideas and theories. Offcourse facts are fine, but they are not always at hand. Your so called 'facts' aren't 100% air-tight too. So please don't be so arrogant. I still think that the Oracle is the mother. And Sati is the reincarnation of this divine mother. She is needed to maintain the 'improved' choice-system, just like the Oracle was needed to maintain the 'old' choice-system. Just like the Merovingian has many symbols/references in his character, Sati has this also. So don't be prejudiced with your so called personal 'facts'. Your ideas have been wonderfull and have created an interesting discussion though. Thanks for that!

im with mobil_ave_neo in this one

i find it very insulting that both eric and james seem to believe that they have studied the matrix saga more than anyone else on this forum and so their opinions(and that is what they are)are fact

i gave a detailed post using quotes from the film throughout to back up my theory...the response was to rubbish it without reason...

the fact remains that there is very little information contained within the saa to make concrete assumptions about sati and her role

the evidence for sati only first appears in "enter the matrix" whereby niobe is told from the oracle

"a couple i trusted sold the termination codes of my original shell to the merovingian"

when asked wht they would do that she replied

"for love...and for the life of their child"

when asked why she let them to it the oracle replied

"i dont know why,but i beleive the child is important"
and
"i believe the child will change both our world and your world forever"

we then see rahma khandra being led away from the merovingians table in reloaded

it is confirmed that it was him in revolutions

"yes...in the restaraunt of the frenchman"

the only piece of dialogue that i can figure out that you have based your theories on are these

"she is still very curious"
this is why you believe she was designed to study the "human psyche" although i believe your collegue stated that the word "psyche" was never used

and the very debatable and ambiguous "please" in the architect/neo conversation

to me it doesnt sound like a solid fact based theory and it seems most people on this site(most of whom have more than likely spent as much or more time than you have analysing the matrix)it doesnt either

so...until you 2 reveal yourselves to be larry and andy wachowski then dont be so presumtuous as to think that we dont know what were talking about

thank you for your post though

hope you enjoy the heated debate

the anomaly

another thing about sati

the matrix is a huge and grand story that is deserving of an impactful and unexpected ending

my original theory was based around this premise

we are told as you say "every programme that is created must have a purpose...if it does not then it is deleted"

to me this implies that programmes have been created before that had no purpose and were deleted"...

surely if this was not the case then the line would have been

"every programme that is created must have a purpose...if it did not it would be deleted"

so rahma already knows by past experience that other purposeless programmes HAVE been deleted and so is attempting to prevent this by smuggling sati into the matrix

the oracle agrees to look after her as she sees her importance in the line shown in the previous post

she does not know why sati is important because as the oracle says

"even i cant see beyond the end"

what this means is the end of the 6th cycle of the matrix

it is only after the matrix is reset that she sees sati's importance

she can "change the matrix as she sees fit" as per the prophecy(you will have to look up my explanations of this previously)

hence it is hinted in the final scene of the film that sati is the fullfilment of the prophecy

neo wasnt the one because as he says

"the one was never meant to end anything...it was all just another system of control"

this is hinted at throughout reloaded

"bad news is youve no way of knowing if you can trust me or not"

so in brief
the oracle was written to find a solution to the collapse of the first matrix
so was the merovingian
the oracle "stumbled across a solution"
this solution was the "anomaly" code that neo carries
the merovingian was made obsolete and has vowed revenge ever since(if you take something from me you will pay the price...the oracle took his purpose)
neo has the code needed to stabilise the matrix
this code renders him uncontrollable(laws of the system etc)
the first attempt to control the anomaly was the agents but they proved unsuccessful(hence smith calls the oracle "mom" as she wrote them)
she then came up with the prophecy to lure the anomaly code to the source fr it to be disseminated and reinserted with the information it gathered removed
the cycle begins again

the problem she never anticipated was the emergance of a being that actually had the ablilities described in the prophecy(changing the matrix)
neo could never do it

but sati ,who by my argument and observation of the same dialogue you tool from,can actually change the matrix

and if you listen to the prophecy as morpheus tells it is M1.the ability to change the matrix is the ONLY ability that is directly attributed the "one"
the others only happen along the same time frame as the emergance of the "one"

domr get me wrong...as i have sadi to JmesWI...it is not your theory that i object to and no-one else in here does either...its merely the insulting and pathetic claims that you are right and everyone else is wrong

as morpheus says

"FREE YOUR MIND"

going on still

you say you are interested in facts and only facts

please show me the evidence cotained within the saga that states what sati's purpose is(without interpreting an allusion to)

what her so called "many parameters" are(agaim without interpreting something)

JamesWI slates everyone else for not giving dialogue that actually tells us directly what the situation is

yet there is absolutely no dialogue or from what i seen and heard in the film that even alludes to your conclusion

it just seems like your are "exercising your imagination" to me regarding those points

another major hole in your theory would stem from the line

"there are levels of survival we are willing to accept"

jamesWI said in another thread(oracle=mommy)that the only programme facing deletion is sati and interprets this as .sati is the programme who studies humans and humans will be destroyed so she has no purpose and so is up for deletion)

if the matrix is destroyed then every programme that is involved would be up for deletion and mobil ave would be a very busy place...

besides if the matrix is destroyed as the architecy says then why would she hide in the matrix...a bit of the old frying pan and fire analogy there dont you agree?

the fact remains that your basing your theory on very loose and debatable dialogue that does not take into context the dialogue that both preceeds and succeeds it
you have selected very narrow dialogue to fit your theory and not made a theory of the film as a whole

i wouldnt want either of as my judge or jury i can tell you that

hahaha

take it easy...dont get a hernia

the anomaly

Very good arguments, 'the anomnaly'.

Especially this one:

Quote:

if the matrix is destroyed then every programme that is involved would be up for deletion and mobil ave would be a very busy place...

The Anomaly wrote -

Quote:

please show me the evidence cotained within the saga that states what sati's purpose is

The only 'evidence' I can think of is from Enter the Matrix.

The Oracle tells Ghost that ... "Sati will change our world and your world forever"

A purpose I believe? Is this the kind of evidence you require?

Another Smith wrote:

The Anomaly wrote - Quote: please show me the evidence cotained within the saga that states what sati's purpose is The only 'evidence' I can think of is from Enter the Matrix. The Oracle tells Ghost that ... "Sati will change our world and your world forever" A purpose I believe? Is this the kind of evidence you require?

not really no...because it doesnt state what her programmed purpose actually is...

the same line could have been applied to any number of characters throughout the film so does that mean they all have the same purpose as sati

i think not

JamesWI wrote:

Being the mother of the Matrix wasn't Sati's PURPOSE...her PURPOSE was to study the humans...she STUMBLED on the idea...purposes do not get assigned and reassigned! Programs don't work that way...you can't take Microsoft Word and decide that you're going to eddit film clips with it...it doesn't happen. A programs purpose is their purpose until they no longer have a purpose. Is that hard to understand?

But what about program like winamp? its original purpose was to play music files but now you can play also movies and radios, browse the web ... you see, purpose may be added while program is being developed.

I think purpose can't be defined once and forever.

It is so because the context is changing and what used to be the proper hard and clear purpose in one situation is just a piece of shit elsewhere.

What I see that you argue about is the width of definition. While JamesWI (or Eric ... there are some reincarnations within the users going around ) are sticked to somewhat narrow delimitation of purpose stemming from the literal meaning of sentences, Anomaly keeps the wider point of view.

What I see as a difference between you two is the context: JamesWI keeps close to the sentences, while Anomaly relies more on the ideas build on these sentences.

I tend to agree with Anomaly because the sentences seemed to be contradictory sometimes and not really comprehensive. Brothers did not intended to be clear, I would say, intentionally
I think it is a good way how to get rid of some nit-picky comments but at the expanse of clarity ....

So please, don't get angry on me ... I am just criticizing some pieces of text with abilities that I have ... I am maybe missing the point ... however, the text is somehow independent on a writer and movie on a director, isn't it?

I like the ideas here around. Thanks for that.

Quote:

The Oracle tells Ghost that ... "Sati will change our world and your world forever"

That's it. The Oracle was the only one who had an intuition about the big change coming. There was a trustworthy program needed to make the change possible. The machine-world didn't realise this, so for them Sati is illegal.

I still think Sati has been assigned to the anomaly-variable. They needed a trustworthy program for this offcourse. Just think about what the Merovingian would do if he had the anomaly-powers. How much more trustworthy can a program get, when it is created out of love? Sati represents the connection of love between Rama and Kamala, so she is a 100% 'kindhearted' and trustworthy program.

She indeed changed things for both worlds. For the Real World she made it possible for Zion to be preserved and co-exist with the Matrix.
For the Matrix she changed the way of the equation. The choice to not accept the program is now valid because the anomaly-variable compensates for this.

I think she is not the outcome of the true Prophecy though. The Prophecy was true all along. The man who was born inside the Matrix, was the anomaly unleashing the new equation. He freed the first people for the new Zion. So this is true.
Remaking the Matrix as he saw fit is kinda true also. He can manipulate the air in order to fly, he can let weapons fly to his hands, he can stop bullets, he hacked Smith to oblivion in M1, etc.

Quote:

After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people.

His coming did indeed hail the destruction of the Matrix, because he also brought Smith to the game. If he wasn't stopped, he would destruct the Matrix.
The war will end...This is also true in a way...
When Zion is destroyed, the machines have won and the war ends. There will be a temporary truce in order to let the 23 people be freed and let them build up Zion.

So the Prophecy is just true for each cycle. It's just a little misleading in order to motivate the humans.

Again, this is Eric.

It is true. James and I don't own this thread. This is a free thread and we assume it is protected by First Amendment rights. Nevertheless, while new ideas are welcomed and encouraged, James and myself tend to hold ourselves to the standard of formulating theories based on facts. While the anomaly challenged us to describe our theories without using interpretations, this is not in the spirit of the Matrix. We accept allusion, the inclusion of historical, artistic, religious, scientific, and mythological references, as a fundamental and an integral component of the perpetuance of the Brother's plot; i.e., their use of allusion teaches of character relationships, character backgrounds, character significance, relationship's significance, and at times holds together the very fabric of the plot. Par example, and this is a particularly evident citation, is the instance of the anagram of "limbo" in Mobil Ave. The use of the anagram here is the Brothers using an allusion to indicate and specify the uncertain location and indefinite oblivion of the place that is "nowhere." This is a use of allusion, and virtually everyone agrees that it not only was intentionally included, but adequately pertinent. Therefore, from this allusion as well as from numerous others, (the Oracle’s name, the Architect’s name, Neo’s anagram, et al.) we see that the utilization of allusion is not only inherent to the creator's structure of the plot, but it is included by them to allow us, as entities outside of the creation of the story, to accommodate a commensurate comprehension of the intricacies of the plot. The Brother's, in recognition of the immense complexity of their creation, and understanding the intellectual limitations of the general public, have essentially established a means whereby they that seek the meanings of the allusions will procure a facile understanding of the narrative.

Meaning? James and I see that the allusions in the Matrix storyline, properly understood with accurate and sometimes painstaking research, can be indeed used as facts. These facts were included by the Brothers as a subtext that provides a "fleshing-out" of the story's events. To demonstrate that the research has been accurate and exhaustive, one approaches the text of the movie, inserting understanding gained through that research into the plot to see if one's understanding of the allusion and the plot are congruent; much like proving the variable in an equation. If an understanding of the allusion is incorrect the result can be a modification of the narrative’s substance. The value of the understanding of allusion admittedly applies only to those characters, events, places, etc., whose genesis is allusion. Nevertheless, to deny the substantial nature of allusion is to erase the definitions we have come to accept regarding them (Seraph, the Merovingian, Persephone, Morpheus, et al.)

So to reiterate:

FACT: Understanding allusion is a widely accepted and a necessarily pertinent method of gaining further knowledge of characters, places, etc, in the story.

FACT: The Sati theory held by James and myself is based on a strict understanding of the dialogue (not merely “she is still very curious”, but numerous other instances) and a painstakingly researched definition of alluded material, which conclusively demonstrates that the usage of the name “Sati” is an allusion to her being the “mother of the matrix.” (This is shown elsewhere; see JamesWI’s “Sati’s Purpose” thread.


And now to handle ‘the anomaly’s’ idea in response to why James and I think Sati’s “parents” as well as the Oracle want Sati to be safely exiled into the Matrix to escape deletion. It went like this:

“if the matrix is destroyed then every program that is involved would be up for deletion and mobil ave would be a very busy place”

and...

“besides if the matrix is destroyed as the architecy says then why would she hide in the matrix...a bit of the old frying pan and fire analogy there dont you agree?”

Here is our reply:

The Architect says “a cataclysmic system failure” he does NOT say the Matrix is going to be destroyed (an example of poor source citation). Failure is a very specific word and it needs to be stated that failure and crash mean entirely different things. Failure is the state of having not achieved the desired end or ends (in this case lots of humans in the power plant). The system failing does not mean that the system will no longer function; indeed it is attested to by the end of the first Matrix. In the phone conversation Neo has with whoever, the screen clearly says “system failure,” however, after hanging up the phone we see that the world of the Matrix persists in its designed course of function. The entirety of humanity does not disappear, Neo flies away. While many people accept that this scene is actually the conclusion of the entire trilogy it adequately demonstrates that a “system failure” is not the end of the world, as it were.

The very fact that they (meaning Rama, Kamala, and the Oracle) are seeking to relocate Satie to the Matrix is a testament to it not being a case of frying pan into the fire. That’s a good question, though, what is YOUR explanation?

Anyway, the Oracle tells us that if a program’s purpose ceases to exist (for that program), then it can either “hide here” or return to the Source. Regardless of the fact that the Matrix “is going to be destroyed” (an error already handled) it’s (meaning the program’s) only choice to avoid deletion is to hide in the Matrix. Hence, regardless of her purpose (human study), Sati must seek exile in the Matrix system in order to ensure her survival. This shows that in spite of the fact that the Matrix may “crash” (an error already handled) there are limited choices for a program which wishes to survive. There are only two choices and a program must make one or the other. It must choose to hide in the Matrix to live, or face certain deletion in the Source. This is the nature of the system.

Even IF the human race was immediately wiped-out following Neo’s choice, Mobil Ave would not necessarily be, as you state, “a very busy place.” Only programs whose purpose is directly tied to humans would face deletion. And, not all of these have the facility to negotiate with the Merovingian to escape via Mobil Ave. Note that I pointed out that programs with purposes tied directly to humans would be deleted. If the humans were to be extinct, this would include Rama. Yet as Rama himself says, the arrangement was made only for his daughter (“you’re not staying with her?”). That was his karma. Therefore, another reason that Mobil Ave would not be flooded with programs as you suggest would be related to the fact that it simply would not be possible for just any program to “afford” the passage as Sati’s “parents” managed by betraying the Oracle.

Rama: “I know that if you want take something from our world into your world that does not belong there, you must go to the Frenchman.”


To deal with the topic of program upgrade; The Oracle clearly states everything about it.

“Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time, and when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to The Source.”

Wow, nicely put Oracle. Let’s examine. Programs can break down, easy enough. A better program can be made to REPLACE another one. GASP! It seems that programs cannot be “updated”-- they are upgraded (“Hm, upgrades.”). Upgrade, however, means that you are being replaced; you don’t continue to serve your purpose. Winap, originally designed to play music files is an entirely different program than the Winap that plays other forms of media. It bears the same name, functions in the relative same way; however, if you still have the original Winap try playing a video file on it. I’ll wish you good luck now, because it’s not going to work. The Winaps with different features are two totally different entities.

We will conclude this post for now. Responses are more than welcomed.

is it not implied that it is the matrix that the archtect is refering to when he says

"a cataclysmic system failure coupled with the destruction of zion will result in the complete destruction of the human race" or something to that end

given the fact that the architect is the programme in charge of the matrix and that the film only gives reference to humans living in zion and the matrix and given that zion is directly considered in the statement...is it not logical to assume that the other part of his dialogue is refering to the collapse of the matrix system

hence if the matrix system did collapse then why would a programme flee into the matrix

you seem to think that nothing in the saga should be taken at face value...and that there is some hidden or underlying meaning in the simplest of scenes

the only way this debate is going to be setlled is if the wachowski brothers tell us as fact

the only reference they have ever given in interview that is SOLID FACT is the influence of zen buddhism...

they have never confirmed the existence of any other mythological reference in interview and until they do then everyone elses argument is as valid as yours

you posted a detailed plot indeed but your responses to the massive holes that many people have punched in your theory seem like desperatation to me

as for your argument about the "system failure" message at the end of M1

given that before it,it says "search running" it is obviously a trace programme to locate neo...not the matrix programme

i have a question for you and i would like a yes or no answer

are there lines of dialogue in the matrix that can be interpreted in very many ways

think of the dialogue as this

a statement comes up that can be interpreted in several ways

one interpretation will lead you to interpret the dialogue which follows it a different way

the result is a spiders web of interpretation depending on your initial interpretation of an ambiguous line of the script

all the people on this board ask is that you appreciate that many people on here have put as much effort into thier theories as you clearly have

what strikes me is that the matrix story is one which demands an open mind and you 2 seem to be so closed to any interpretation other than your own

its quite sad really

one last post you may be interested in

given the fact that i stated before about the only influence the brothers have refered to in the matrix as zen buddhism...

here is the zen buddhism meaning for sati

haustao.ch...

perhaps the most pertinant point is that sati is

"the 7th link of the 8 fold pass"

Taken from the transcript:

Quote:

Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race

The Architect literally says 'crash', so you guys are wrong on this.

I agree with 'the anomaly'. They try to trace the call, but as we know, Neo is the anomaly so he manipulates the code of the phone-network to stop the trace-program.

I agree with Eric on the programs being deleted which are involved with humans and that they won't be all able to deal with the Merovingian.

I don't agree on the purpose-part. You are right about the upgrading, but you can change a programs purpose after a while.
The programs are artifical intelligent, so they can absorb knowledge and accept new assignments.
Example: if the Oracle has alot of knowledge about the human behaviour, she is very well suited to become the executive of the Prophecy.

The allusion of Sati being the mother-god is still valid. She IS the mother, but only of the Matrix in new-style thanks to the changes Neo made.

it does indeed say in hindu mythology that sati was A mother goddess but as we both point out...this role was also passed on to her from someone else

so sati maybe the mother of the 7th matrix but the oracle was the mother of the 6th matrix

i think that this is perhaps the only way we will have some agreement with eric and james

anyway...the debate and INTERPRETATION is the fun part for me

ok, about the winamp example, it was not not maybe the best one ... but it depends how you define the change/replacement: can you say the program is replaced when just one line of its code is changed? What if inherent part of the program is to change its code? (some preliminary condition for creation of AI, isn't it?)

Also the purpose of the program maybe defiened in a very different ways. For example, the narrow definition of text editor's purpose is to write and change the text, apply some formating features etc. But the wider purpose may be for instance to make money for its programmer or to enhance peoples' literacy. Besides this, text editor may be used also for writing of the program code, for deletion of file's content ... there is quite a lot of purposes possible to find.

How you know which of these purposes was in the mind of its creator? I don't think it is even valid to search for such information.

Though, there can be a purpose for Sati in Oracle's mind (if we can talk about her 'mind') but not in the mind of system agents, as we tend to agree on this thread.

Purpose is relative. That's what I wanted to say.

We have to ask then, who decides about purpose of programs within the matrix universe. Is it the creator of the program (Rama-Kandra & Kamala)? or Architect (with relation to his equation)? or some unknown AI? or the Source who decides? What about Merovingian? He probably deals with cause-effect relation ... or maybe, he is able assign some purpose to the programs within the matrix -> they may work for him by which means they regain a different purpose ... still, I don't know WHO decides. Maybe Deus ex Machina? Do the AI vote for someone's purpose

.... I'll stop this, this is probably a dead end ...

the anomaly wrote:

the only reference they have ever given in interview that is SOLID FACT is the influence of zen buddhism... they have never confirmed the existence of any other mythological reference in interview.... ...what strikes me is that the matrix story is one which demands an open mind and you 2 seem to be so closed to any interpretation other than your own its quite sad really

Interesting... I could have sworn that I read somewhere that they used some Gnostic myths as well, but I might have been mistaken. It matters not: Zen Buddhism is one of the only religions in current existence that closely resembles the Ancient Mysteries, and therefore resembles Gnosticism as well.

I agree that we all should probably lighten up. The Purpose of this forum is debate; that's what we're doing. As soon as we start to say "i'm right, you're wrong" we are in danger of self-destruction.

"Know thyself" does not allow for "you're wrong." Only you can know yourself, which is of course where the answers lie.

"Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong." -Morpheus, M1

Finally, I just wanted to respond to a point I read earlier, before I forced myself to take a break from this forum (dude, I so needed it, too): I cannot argue the point that the Wach. Bros. simply utilized the same symbols as found in various religions in order to tell their story. There is no real proof of any other explanation, and as it seems to be the simplest one, it is the explanation that is most likely to be correct (Occam's Razor, again). As a scientist, I must concede this. But I can't help but fantasize that the Brothers W. knew what they were doing, creating a modern myth, with all the symbolic underpinning that used to go into them, in ancient times. It may be simple coincidence that all these parallels and relationships that we have discussed here and on other threads exist between their Matrix movies and the extant religions and philosophies of the world. Then again, Larry and Andy W. might just be Initiates themselves, playing the part of heirophant, imparting to the world the Higher Truth in a clever disguise, as has been done for milennia.

The parallels to The Mysteries certainly are compelling, to say the very least.

I've just spent hours and hours reading the thought-provoking posts from JamesWI, Eric, the Anomaly and other regarding the theory that Sati is the "Mother of the Matrix" that the Architect refers to in his talk with Neo. I found myself really struggling with James & Eric's theory -- and they almost convinced me -- but I just don't think the evidence is there to believe that Sati is the mother. I will now try to give some reasons why this is difficult to believe.

We first meet the Oracle in her apartment, with children performing experiments (floating blocks etc.). She appears to be a babysister or running a day care. She is a very old and been with the resistance from the beginning according to Morpheus. She is a program (we later learn) who spends all of her time with humans, feeding them, counseling them, watching over them, learning about them and helping them learn about themselves. She therefore observes humans, both plugged and unplugged at the varying stages and phases in their life. She is quite literally a "mother" figure from the first time she appears on the screen.

When the Architect talks to Neo in Reloaded, he refers to an intuitive program that "stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level." This is so characteristic of all the conversations the Oracle has with Neo. "Make up your own damn mind" and "but you already know what I'm going to say" -- this is the Oracle putting the onus on Neo, her way of dealing with this tricky business of choice and the tendency for rebellion against authority (the shouting Neos in the Architect's screens, the middle finger he gives Smith in the interrogation room). You could say it is the ultimate guilt trip only the supreme mother could give.

I also point out that Rama-K is leaving Merv's restaurant just as Neo and Co. are walking in. The deal to move Sati into the Matrix is already in progress before they even sit down -- well before Neo has chosen the "wrong" door after the Architect's talk, which according to the James/Eric theory is the trigger for Sati's irrelevance.

I think that the reason the Architect says "Please" is merely at the suggestion that this intuitive program he feels is a lesser mind is somehow in actuality "a person considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinions" or some sort of priestess or holy medium (definitions from dictionary.com). These religious/mythic concepts would bear no weight in the logical mind of this uber-programmer, so I believe he is just bristled by hearing this reverence for the "unbalancer," his opposite -- the Oracle. Maybe he has a name for her like "Matrix No. 3 Human Behavior program" or something. The point is that he is bristled by the term "Oracle" -- and perhaps by the interruption by the Anomaly -- but he is not indicating that Neo is incorrect. He is quicker (and perhaps ruder) than the "others" remember?

I am not sure what Sati is or represents, but I have to take it at face value that she represents an evolution in both AI itself and the relationship between AI and humanity. Sati seems to truly accept and love Neo, honoring him with a sunrise. This connection is also implied in the Animatrix. Humans are kept around in part because we are their Creators, their ancestors, and there seems to be some that still wish to honor us and learn about us, despite our rejection of them.

So in conclusion, I think the Sati is the mother theory is a fascinating one, but is too dependant on allusion to be true. It seems the W Bros. double and triple up on the symbolism (Persephone, Club Hel, underground, "used to be like you" = Hades allusion), but this theory rotates around one word, the "Please" response by the Architect. When it seems logical that if Neo was wrong, the Architect would indicate it clearly so his (and our) inferior minds could understand.

Thanks for all of your excellent cookies of thought!

Soundsurgeon, I have been waiting for someone to put into words the argument against Sati as 'Mother of the Matrix' for ages, it seems, and you have done it as convincingly as I ever could have hoped. It was, indeed, the 'Please!' that troubled me, the 'Please!' around which the argument revolved--something I have to admit, I did not see clearly until you pointed it out. Thank you for putting that to rest, at least for me.

But as this is light years off topic, I think I'll stop there.

Welcome to the MeX forums, Soundsurgeon. I hope you'll stick around; eloquent arguments like yours are at a premium these days.

annaerullo wrote:

But as this is light years off topic, I think I'll stop there. .

Oops, I thought about this after I posted. Maybe I'll cross post this in a more appropriate Sati topic. Thanks for warm welcome and the compliments!