»The Nature of Machines«

This idea might have been suggested before, I don't know, anyway here goes.

What if the Matrix were created, not merely as a power source/control method, but as a way of guarenteeing interaction with Humans?

Why do the machines and some programs hate the humans so much then?

Because they realise the truth, perhaps. If you discovered that you were in some part, dependent upon someone else, but that you didn't particularly like that person, how would you feel about them?

And also, hate is a way of reacting and interfacing isn't it? It's another way of mimicing humans. There may be more than one motivation in each program as well, producing inherent conflicts, just like HAL in 2001.

Sounds great actually LauraS.

The machines tried several times to co-exist peacefully by going to the world council (or something like (I must watch Animatrix again LOL)), so natrually they want to interact with humans. I guess one way or another they have achieved this.

War - They interact.
Control (Matrix) - They interact.
Peace (releasing people from the Matrix) - They still interact.

So every which way I look at it, they still interact with humans and are no longer in isolation (for lack of a better word at the moment (Zero1)).

Yet another good string of thoughts to analyse. Thank you for sharing that LauraS.

Its really cool. I like it....i like it lot.

Unlike humans, Ai can reprogram themself to like/dislike what they want. So why continue to need an interaction with us if they can easely get rid of it ? Especially if they don't like us.

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This gets to the point whereby the only way a robot servant can "prove" that it's "real", to its owner, is to kill them -- because that's one thing that humans, who are "real", do!

By "real," I'm assuming you mean, "a real person."

Humans, who are "real," do a lot of other things too, besides kill one another. They go to work, go to church, pay their taxes. In fact, it's only the minority of humans who kill other humans. So why would killing someone prove that a machine is "real"?

Anyway, assuming that you're right, and that the best way for a machine to prove that it's real is to kill its owner.... then the number one goal of all machines should be to kill humans. And that still doesn't explain the Matrix.

Also, why do you think the machines need/want interaction with humans?

Tiefling wrote:

Humans, who are "real," do a lot of other things too, besides kill one another. They go to work, go to church, pay their taxes. In fact, it's only the minority of humans who kill other humans. So why would killing someone prove that a machine is "real"?

How can something "not real" kill you? Have you ever tried to engage someone in a discussion and they've never taken you seriously (I suspect teh answer to that, for anyone who actually uses these forums, is "yes" ) ? There would be a certain level of raising frustration, so that you either withdraw from the situation, or somehow "raise" the level of intensity at which it takes place. Trying to kill someone else is pretty intense. Withdrawal may not have been an option for that first machine when it killed its owner (has there been a comic about that story?).

Tiefling wrote:

Anyway, assuming that you're right, and that the best way for a machine to prove that it's real is to kill its owner.... then the number one goal of all machines should be to kill humans. And that still doesn't explain the Matrix.

I never said that it was the best way of proving such a thing, just that it was a way. The reaction would not have been what was wanted, either.

Tiefling wrote:

Also, why do you think the machines need/want interaction with humans?

Because of current developments in AI.

I think it's interesting to point out the defenition of artificial. (I very much enjoy the meanings of words...so this isprobably the most common thing you'll hear out of me)...

Artificial, made by humans, made in imitation of.

The whole driving force of the AI appocalyptical plot thing like in the terminator movies and the Matix (though I argue that the brothers were trying to write a tightly constructed story based on character relationships and explainations) is that machines become aware of themselves. Though it's not really possable for a machine to become aware of itself. To that end I think that the only thing that is sci-fi about the Matrix is machines becoming aware of themselves. the Brotehrs are saying, basically, this story will work, but for it to work you must accept this...AI...everything else has explaination.

Real means to have verafiable existance. Surely machines knew this and could verify their existance. What makes AI is a conciousness which machines could never have.

The intrinsic need of simulated intelligent beings for human interaction is interesting, not to mention VERY written about in Hollywood (e.x. Kubrick's A.I.).

Perhaps this could point to more meanning behind Neos' saying, "you need humans to survive"...it's obvious that machines could have found another power source...perhaps the real survival has to do with interaction.

I like the theory. in Judeo-Christian theology there's the implication of our need to be in contact with God...to interact with God (prayer).

I also enjoy the significance the Brothers gave in the name of the first machine to rise up...B166ER...

I think i might have had more to say, but I'm tired so i can't really remember...

I think the AI wanted peace with the humans all along and that certain programs opposed the interaction but programs such as the Oracle wanted peace. I think that perhaps the whole function of the story of the Matrix and the cycles was a learning curve for the humans. Until the humans learnt to co-exist then the machines would do the only thing they could...they would put them in another world and the machines and humans would live in separate worlds. It makes sense in my opinion because if the machines just wanted human's power then they could just snip a few cords in the brain, turn them into vegetables, and use them as batteries. They didn't though, they went about creating a new world for them to live in at the peak of their civilisation. They took them "home" so to speak.

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I never said that it was the best way of proving such a thing, just that it was a way.

Actually, you didn't say that it was a way. You said it was the only way:

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This gets to the point whereby the only way a robot servant can "prove" that it's "real", to its owner, is to kill them

And by definition, if it's the only way, it also has to be the best way.

They needed the brain though...in the first movie Morpheus says "the human prain produces"...it is the brain that creates all the bio electricity. Therefor increased brain activity would be desired, so they could have vegetables and they couldn't have them always be asleep, they needed them to be awake and intereact with a world to get the most efficient amount of bio electricity.

Dude, if you give people electric treatment to turn into a vegetable it doesn't stop the body producing heat and bio electreicity. If the brain stopped producing that the person would die, simple. Vegetables aren't dead though they're very much alive, and their body is fully functional just their conscious mind can't control bodily functions.

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They needed the brain though...in the first movie Morpheus says "the human prain produces"...it is the brain that creates all the bio electricity.

Actually, the exact statement was, "The human body generates more bio-electricity than a 120-volt battery and over 25,000 BTU's of body heat." It's the body they wanted, not the brain. The brain got in the way, thus the Matrix.

Laura S wrote -

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What if the Matrix were created, not merely as a power source/control method, but as a way of guarenteeing interaction with Humans?

The interaction idea is very interesting.

If you look at the same idea, from our point of observance -

We are constantly, as a spieces, trying to interact with our creator and most of us strive to be at one with the creator.

So in essence, the machines are only trying to do as we do.

We did create them afterall.

I did post something very similar to this, months ago. I was coming from the point of view that the Machines were on some kind of a learning curve and wanted to care for Human Beings...
Before they could accomplish that task, they had to experience emotions, feelings - LOVE- and every aspect of it.

The Machines were never loved by Human Beings, they were used, abused and controlled.

Is it any wonder that Machines turned on Humans as they did?
They were afterall a mirror image of their creators..

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The Machines were never loved by Human Beings, they were used, abused and controlled.

Assuming humans did use, abuse, and control the machines, I don't blame them in the slightest. I use and control my dishwasher every day without a second thought, and I don't feel the least bit remorseful.

Exactly my point!

This is where it begins....

Well when my dishwasher rebels man, don't think I'll have any mercy on it, .

Hahahaha. Yeah I really think it was a learning curve. They understand the human psyche perfectly, they know how best to teach us. Pretty cool though no? "I wanna learn German" "Ok dude, then sit your ass down here" *zap* "Ich spreche Deutsch!"

Tiefling wrote -

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Well when my dishwasher rebels man, don't think I'll have any mercy on it

Haahaaheeheee

Don't give it any reason to do so... (tongue-firmly-in-cheek)

Tiefling wrote:

Quote: This gets to the point whereby the only way a robot servant can "prove" that it's "real", to its owner, is to kill them And by definition, if it's the only way, it also has to be the best way.

I was referring to that particular instance, rather than a general universal rule. It's a crying shame that the "New Rennaisance" segements of the Animatrix weren't a full length animation in their own right. I'm sure the story could be done right and show the subtle (and not so subtle) progression whereby the first murder takes place.

the story og bi66er rising against his master is hardly a new story is it?

its obviously a reference to slavery and to those slaves who fought back against oppression and the masses who suffered because of it

despite this i think a new animatrix should show the back story of bi66er's creation,crime and trial...

JamesWI wrote:

Though it's not really possable for a machine to become aware of itself.

Really? Are you aware of yourself? The human body is definitely a "machine," from a certain point of view.... (I know, I'm Obi-Wanning ) According to The Ancient Mysteries, the very creation of the universe is the result of the Universal Daemon (the Ineffable One, or the Christ in the Gnostic Mysteries) becoming aware of itself. It is our own constant goal to become aware of ourselves, our internal workings and processes, our environment and surrounding space. What makes you so sure that it is impossible for AI to (eventually) become self-aware?

Remember that space travel was once sci-fi, as well. We may not be as far along as some of those stories would suggest we'd be by now, but we are in space, (our machines are, anyway) and landing on other planets.

LauraS, fantastic idea. Machines cannot live without Humans.

Since I think that, in the Matrix movies, Humans represent the mind/spiritual aspect of Man, and Machines the body/physical aspect, Morpheus' line makes all the more sense with this theory: "The body cannot live without the mind."