»Matrix explained... how does it work ?«

Please read the following once, these are the basic rules to make that topic a good place for building a logical self coherent theory.

I have decided to open a topic dedicated to the logic analyse of Matrix, I mean without all the noise, subject changing, religious interpretation. etc.

Just a topic with the essential. The purpose is to understand how the Matrix works technically ? Any theory is welcome but it must follow these rules :

1) It must not contradict itself
2) It must not contradict established facts
3) It must remains in the Wachowski spirit (meaning that hypothesis like "it's all a game" won't stand a chance here)
4) Religious things can be mentioned but ill not be considered as technical analyzing.

So I cast here my first theory that me and Apocryphe think as being the basic on wich we should all agree before goign further...

The theory is the following.... We have constated that machines can do *almost *whatever they want with our brains. They can add data, delete some, load info into it etc. This point, once developed to his terminal conclusion, is going change everyhting you thought that yuu knew about how the Matrix works.

The facts first (please use those numbers to refer any answers):

1°) Cyhpher obtained from the machines that they could erase his memories and making him becoming someone else.

2°) Trinity can load data into his mind, such as all the crew member. This proves that data can be written in human mind.

3°) In matrix 1, Smith is hacking Morpheus's mind to the point that he could tell them whatever they want. Since Morpheus is physically in the vessel, the only way to get him talking was by hacking his mind, not with real serum of truth.

4°)The Oracle changes his shell and in the process, has another appareance. She said that she wished she could avoid it(not having his old apparence), meaning that she don't control it.


Conclusion : machines can load programs in humans brains. All the programs we see are in fact humans who have been hacked like Bane has been by Smith.
Except Seraph, but I'll explain it lather because it would require another big analizis before coming to this.

Anyone sees contradictions ? flaws ? Facts please, Gentlemen, facts !

Thx for reading

Im not quite sure what youre asking me to do. Do you want me to write my broad theory of the entire matrix with technical explanations? PM me and tell me and I would love to contribute.

whyy not seraph then?

I'm sorry but your conclusion does not seem to follow from the premises.

The human brain can be hacked
Therefore programs used to be human.

How does this follow?

to Akshat Gupta and the others,

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Do you want me to write my broad theory of the entire matrix with technical explanations?

In fact, we would like to advance step by step, subject by subject, just like a demonstration (avoiding boring texts made of 1000 words that none will read). But to be sure that our theory is fine, we need to confront it to other matrix fans and see if there was not something that we had not thought about. We wish to have an interactive development here.

So, what I didn't explain very well, is that we wished that you try to find flaws in deductions made here, and if that's a part of your theory, we would be glad to hear it of course. Of course, if your arguments are better, we won't hesitate to change ours and re-direct the theory on new trails.

But please, as I said, try to focus on each subject as much as possible (we know that Matrix forms a whole universe and it is hard to talk about this without that).

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whyy not seraph then?

Good question. Our theory is that the glowing thing means that you are a program directly born from the source. It is a more basic code and Smith cannot act at this level, but we'll explain it later. Anyway, Seraph don't need a human body to interact with the matrix universe. Other Machines do. Now let's focus on the human brain being able to be programed.

Fatpie42,

we don't think that programs used to be humans... but that now, programs are all stored in human brains (at least in the matrix).

Before going on, do we all agree with the fact that machines can store any programs in our mind if they wish so ?

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Here are some contradicting facts in matrix that we would wish to see you answering:

1) Rama use the word love or karma but with a meaning that is not exactly the same as ours (for humans). If the words he uses are only choosen to be understable by human concepts, so why did he choose karma instead of destinity or the muslim faith or whatever else ? Rama is smilling all the time, what kind of meaning could this have for an AI ?

Why do all his family looks indian, what kind of sense would that have for a machine ? He talks about love but is in charge of the recycling operation... meaning using dead to feed the livings. How comes that the way machines are seeing the world is so close of ours ?
Where does his human apparence come from ? Why choose indian ? Why choose that voice, that way of speakign etc. ?

If it all comes from a human host, then how is that possible since Rama is coming from the machine world (he's not connected directly to the matrix) See what I mean ?

2) The Merovingian likes to have a blowjob and need to take a piss (even if he does not really do it, but he uses it as an excuse so it means that is plausible for Persephone). What kind of machine is that ? Why do the Oracle need to smoke ? Why is the Merovingian affraid of being killed by a bullet if he's only a program ?

All these facts prove, to us, that machines have loaded programs in human brains but that there are some limits to programming... they must respect some basic desire/behavior of the host. Meaning that they can do a lot of things with our minds... but not everything.

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Conclusion : machines can load programs in humans brains. All the programs we see are in fact humans who have been hacked like Bane has been by Smith. Except Seraph, but I'll explain it lather because it would require another big analizis before coming to this.

all of your evidence ill AGREE with but your conclusion is either "explained wrong" and you need to explain what your really meant better, OR its a faulty conclusion.

1. its saying that all the people in the matrix are dead. *which has been clearly made out NOT to be so.

2. Your making an assumption. where they CAN be hacked does not nessisarly mean that they ALL have been.

3. what about the keymaker and the twins? are they not programs?- the oracle seems to says so. (although that is speculation)

4. Everything, from the walls, to the floors, to the sky is part of a "simulation" or program. and if EVERYONE in the matrix is a "program" then there would be no need to save the people, or "free their mind" cause their dead.

5. the JUMPING from 1 person to the other. Morpheus said "potentally an agent" and not "IS an agent"


GREAT AVATAR though.
cool superman.

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Before going on, do we all agree with the fact that machines can store any programs in our mind if they wish so ?

yes. cause OBVIOUSLY their in "control"
(which blows)

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1) Rama use the word love or karma but with a meaning that is not exactly the same as ours (for humans). If the words he uses are only choosen to be understable by human concepts, so why did he choose karma instead of destinity or the muslim faith or whatever else ? Rama is smilling all the time, what kind of mening could this have for an AI ?

not nessarily a "different" meaning than that of humans.
there is the feeling of affection which simply can be interpreted as a "connection" which he talked about, or is called "the psychic energy of EROS.
then there is the Genital love. that freud talks about.

BOTH of which evidence in the film showed in programs.

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Why do all his family looks indian, what kind of sense would that have for a machine ? He talks about love but is in charge of the recycling operation... meaning using dead to feed the livings. How comes that the way machines are seeing the world is so close of ours ? Where does his human apparence come from ? Why choose indian ? Why choose that voice, that way of speakign etc. ?

cause the matrix was designed with the "grotesqueries" of the human nature.
or designed closer to your history.
"which would include "the tower of babel" where all differences of races where created by God, which INCLUDES speech.

the machines simply adapted this and put it into the program. (to be more believable)

the ONLY reason that the machines see the world like us is so that we wont "keep waking up" , cause the machines didnt want it that way (at first)
cause the first matrix was designed so that no one would suffer.
THAT was the way that the machines wanted. they ONLY see it that way (now) cause its the way that the humans NEED to see it.

why did HE choose indian?- maybe HE had no choice. Cause remeber the machines believe in FORCE, and CONTROL.
and SOMEBODY has to be "indian" to provide more of an illusion. It might as well be "him"

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If it all comes from a human host, then how is that possible since Rama is coming from the machine world (he's not connected directly to the matrix) See what I mean ?

it doesnt ALL come from a human host. in the same way that PROGRAMS come from the source, (which exists in the real world) RAMA comes from the machines. *he could be a machine* like a squiddy.

and a machine connected to the matrix would OUTPUT programs. *which would be different than that of a human

what humans begat would be human, what machines begat will be machines.

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2) The Merovingian likes to have a blowjob and need to take a piss (even if he does not really do it, but he uses it as an excuse so it means that is plausible for Persephone). What kind of machine is that ? Why do the Oracle need to smoke ? Why is the Merovingian affraid of being killed by a bullet if he's only a program ?

cause even the programs are BOUND to the rules. *rules like gravity*
(they never will be as fast as you can be)-morphus-

and these rules INCLUDE (the rules of pleasure AND pain)
-like the enjoyment of sex and the pain of death.-
Smith and neo just "broke the rules"

hope that clears things up for you.

I'm seriously losing it! What's the argument?

Merovingian needs to take a piss and has desires because he is in human form like an agent is. It seems that sentient programs often look human.

Why does Rama choose that voice? Why the hell not? For theatrical reasons it is because he talks about Indian ideas like karma. You might as well ask why Seraph is Chinese or why the Architect is American.

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Why does Rama choose that voice? Why the hell not? For theatrical reasons it is because he talks about Indian ideas like karma. You might as well ask why Seraph is Chinese or why the Architect is American

Rama uses that voice is for the illusion of the matrix, so that it will be more believable for mankind, otherwise they will keep waking up.

The program of the matrix contains the past and all of it that goes along with it, like the tower of babel. Uniqueness in race is part of that illusion.

Raksasha69,

I realize that I was not clear enough, probably because i wanted to make it as simple as possible.

1. I never said people were dead. So it's ok

2. I never said they were all hacked, I said that programs (like the merovingian, the keymaker etc.) are stored in humans brains. These AI the habits of their human host (like loving candy e.g., or smoking etc.) but all the smiles and other "human" reactions are in fact a way to communicate with us while, in their head, they don't really think about smilling. It is just a word, a connection as Rama would say.

3. They certainly are programs... but the hardware that support these programs are simply a hacked human brain. If not, then programs should not die, they should go from one host to another like Agents do. But we know for sure that exiles can't do that instantly or else the Merovingian would not be affraid of Trinity's gun.

4. Good point , that is exactly where we wanted to come to : we think that humans are using 10% of their capacity... so the other 90% are used by machines for programming. They all participate inconsciously to the maintaining of the matrix. So the matrix would not be only a power plant... but a cheap memory hardware.

Here are some facts leading to that conclusion :

A) in the comics "Goliath", the hero says that he felt like machines were using us as cheap memory. An agent says that, in reality, a bomb had destroyed thousands of human bodies, destroying London in the virtual world.
To avoid anyone realizing it, they stop the time in the matrix and copied humans brains to store them into other bodies (the agent said backups). So, it is clear now that we can be used as memories very easely.

B) Sati has a human apparence that she keeps in the Matrix. If we agreed that programs are stored in human minds, how comes that Sati already had a human behavior and face before entering the matrix, since she was born in the machine world ? The only logical answer is because any program is stored in human brains.

5. I agree, my theory is not against that.

Thanks for the Avatar, I found it on internet.

Raksasha69 wrote:

not nessarily a "different" meaning than that of humans. there is the feeling of affection which simply can be interpreted as a "connection" which he talked about, or is called "the psychic energy of EROS.

It cannot be exactly the same meaning. First because we are different, second, these are very limited analogies. Talking about karma for a machine has certainly not the same meaning than for a human believing in karma (since there is all the Gods thign and all). See what I mean ?
The machines are using the closest notion understable by humans, but again, they are very limited.
The way machines see love is probably very different from ours... I only have to mention the fact that machines cannot lie to each other (or so it seems)... wich is probably why the Merovingian is still with Persephone (but I'll explain it later).

Raksasha69 wrote:

cause the matrix was designed with the "grotesqueries" of the human nature. or designed closer to your history.

Agreed, but Rama don't come from the Matrix, he's from the machine world. So what's the point to look human in that world ? Sorry, but that argument does not contradict what I said about their irrelevant human behavior.

Raksasha69 wrote:

why did HE choose indian?- maybe HE had no choice. Cause remeber the machines believe in FORCE, and CONTROL. and SOMEBODY has to be "indian" to provide more of an illusion. It might as well be "him"

No need of illusion, he's living in the machine world.

Raksasha69 wrote:

*he could be a machine* like a squiddy. and a machine connected to the matrix would OUTPUT programs. *which would be different than that of a human

In fact, if we want to stay logic, being a squiddy is illogical for an AI. Why have one body that risks to kill you (by accident or during the war) if you can simply remotely control it ? That woulde explain a lot... AI are interchangeable softwares... they can be in squiddies, then after in the matrix and then again after into another machine or virtual world.

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cause even the programs are BOUND to the rules. *rules like gravity* (they never will be as fast as you can be)-morphus-

But why can't they break these rules if they can rewrite our mind ? That's the point here. They cannot because the human mind refuses some things (like, for example, being forced to live in the matrix without their acknowledgement).

What you said here just prove what I meant : a part of the human brain can rewritten... but not everything. And that's important for the following.

Fatpie42 wrote:

Why does Rama choose that voice? Why the hell not? For theatrical reasons it is because he talks about Indian ideas like karma. You might as well ask why Seraph is Chinese or why the Architect is American.

What I mean, is that the machines could simply look like Terminator or something, with all the feeling being appart. But here, we see them hating, loving, jealousing, etc. It is more than theatrical reasons, because they still have that behavior even between themself.
The Merovingian says that he really loves french and wine, why would he lie to Neo ? He's in a restaurant, why the hell would he loose his time there ? Sorry, but to me, all the behavior of machines cannot be explained by simpel comedy since they really have human feelings.
The strangest thing is that these feelings are not welcome in 01 while plenty of them have these feelings.

All the fact of the movie point to the conclusion : machines are using our mind as hardware but sometimes those programs are corrupted by the human anture.

Sorry, posted twice (deleted)

When the agent tells the keymaker he is "meant for one more thing 'deletion'" he holds a gun to his head. It seems that sentient programs are deleted the same way that humans are killed.

It might seem fair to say that in order to be humanoid the programs have to be inhabiting people like the agents do - however, Rama Kandra and Sati are outside of the matrix when they are at the train station. Rama says that where they have come from anything without a purpose is deleted. If Neo was almost killed by going to the source too early, it seems unlikely that any human the programs are inhabiting could go there too.

This last part is a personal theory:
On the subject of the difference between the programs and agents I think it is important that when the agents are shot the human they are inhabiting dies instead. The exiles are not inhabiting humans so if they are killed they are deleted for good.

The agent had no gun when he said that. Notice that he and the keymaker are having a chinwag waiting patiently for the agent to be killed. It stinks comedy like hell.

There is a difference between going to the source ... and exchanging data uncounsciously with the machine world. Here are the last arguments that Maze didn't tell :

a) The reloading thing is completly illogical : if the machines were able to
create once the Matrix, then they could just load (not reload) the same
initial program, to reset all minds (except those who refuses) and start
again, just like they did the first time. They must do it anyway when the
reloading is done, so why not do it without the anomaly ?

If they can rewrite our mind, so reloading should be like the first time that they created the matrix.... humans were born without parents, there was an history that never happened etc. So why not simply reset it all like the first time ?

b) if the Matrix is just a power plant, why not simply program everyone to be agents-like and all those who refuses the program to be killed ?
A human body is supposed to generate as much energy with a brainwashed mind or without it. Why even bother keeping humans into a virtual world ? They could simply make them have a lobotomy, and keep them alive...

c) If all this Zion stuff is about energy, why waste so much by digging
hundreds of miles while a simple spy (with a brain washed) could give them Zion's code (the ones that Smith wanted in Matrix1) ? That makes no sense at all.

In conclusion : the battery theory is completly contradictory. No matter how much you think about it, you'll always come to the same conclusion : there is no need to create a virtual world to get energy from our bodies... ergo, the real purpose of the Matrix is linked to the fact that our brain must work properly...
I remain open to any suggestion of what that purpose could be... but if we want to remain coherent, we must admit it is strongly linked to the way our mind function or else, as I said, there would not be any need of Neo to reload or to keep us dreaming.

Please think thorougly about it and you'll realize that the only plausible explanation is that machines use our brain as computering devices.

Party pooper! We were having real fun discussing rubbish. That's why we're here!

Sometimes I just wonder why I keep explaining the obvious. After all, if you prefere to see it the easy way, it is fine for me.

That poor maze was so excited to have found a good explanation to all this and now he's desapointed by people who are always brining up obvious points.
I mean, read what you write, it is plenty of remarks that could be answered by themselves, or irrelevant arugments etc. Ok, it's beter to give up that topic.

AI is different than a traditional program. I dont want to go into the technical aspects. I'll try to explain that in "common tounge" . AI is a branch of computer science which tries to replicate human intelligence. In other words, by discovering the way we work, we can teach a machine the same thing. That is, we are organic robots and our brain is an organic computer. Our mind is the highest level program which runs in the brain. (These are not assumptions but established facts)

At a philosophical level, a person is defined by two aspects.

1. Knowledge (which defines the inner world of a person)

2. Choice (which defines the person to the outer world). Actions and decisions are also appropriate to describe choice.

If I remember correctly, this quote is found in the movie "Total Recall" - "A person is identified by his actions". Humans make a choice out of their knowledge. Animals make a choice out of their instincts (default programming if u like). When we make a choice out of our instincts, then we are animals too !

So, technically you can give the knowledge to a person, but you cannot force him to make a choice. (ie) You can teach kung-fu to Neo. But only Neo has to make a choice whether he must fight Smith or run away in the sub way station.

Hope that helps (and also hope that I've not confused you !)

Oh, don't worry Scientheist, I am quite used with hard reasoning in matrix. I agree with what you say except the choice thing.

If you can programm a brain, then there is no such thing as choice. However, it seems obvious to me that machines cannot programm a human brain completly (probably for bio-chemical reasons), and the part they cannot override is the "choice" part.
So it explains the fact they must keep humans living into a coherent wolrd in order for the brain to function correctly.

So finally, what about you give the last explanation about how the matrix works ? I think we're going nowhere here. And my english being worst than yours , I suggest you just drop the bomb we talked about

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Conclusion : machines can load programs in humans brains. All the programs we see are in fact humans who have been hacked like Bane has been by Smith.

This violates your rule (2).

Rule (2):

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2) It must not contradict established facts

1. Agent Smith is a program we see. Agent Smith, in M1, says the following:
- "Never send a human to do a machine's job."
- "Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not."
- "Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure."

2. Agent Brown is a program we see. Agent Brown, in M1, says, "Only human," right as he is about to kill Neo.

3. The Oracle is a program we see. In M2, when she and Neo speak:

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Neo: You're not human, are you? The Oracle: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that.

4. The Merovingian is a program we see. In M2, he says, "You see, he's just a man," after Neo gets injured.

We thus see four different programs specifically differentiate themselves from humans.

Plus, your conclusion is insupportable. Using your logic, I could just as easily say that all the humans we see in the movie are in fact machines.

Maze wrote:

4°)The Oracle changes his shell and in the process, has another appareance. She said that she wished she could avoid it(not having his old apparence), meaning that she don't control it.

eh?

Tiefling,

very good points you mentioned. Basically, what is the difference between a human and an AI ? Was Bane still human ? Was Neo still human after the superbrawl ? Men filled with plugs, able to learn kung-fu in 5 seconds ? Where does the human end and the machine begin ?

Bane could get his face kicked and even cutting himself without being bothered by it. He was not affraid of dying at all, he had nothing human anymore. Bane woke up just when Neo got out of the Matrix. They seem to have much more power than any human could ever have.

If you build a computer made of humans brains that you can reprogram, does it mean that the software running in those brains have anything human ? The hardware and the software are different things. So, being human is a question of software for the machines, not hardware.

Why was not Neo glowing before the superbrawl ? Why is Bane showed with an orange-code while Neo is shown "normally" even when they show the world through the orange-code (at least before the superbrawl). See what I mean ?
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Srry kid, in french the possessive is made agreed with the possessed object,not the possessor, so I instinctivly wrote his instead of her. You should be used to my bad english for now

Using your logic as well, I could mention these sentences :

Oracle talking about the Architecte : "...but that MAN can't see past any choices."
The Oracle: What do all MEN with power want? More power.

See, here the word man is used for programs. And why would the Merovingian be affraid of being killed by Trinity if he's a pure program ? Look at Smith, he didn't die when Neo destroyed him, he went to the source.

So, exile programs are probably stored in humans brains because they have no other places where to hide while official programs like Agents are stored into a more global program that backs them up.

Dying for a program is senseless in the Matrix, except if they are stored in human brains.

Also, if Agents are pure programs, why can't they appear somewhere if there is not a human being already there ? They always occupy human bodies... there must be a reason, right ?

Well, In matrix universe Programs have looked like humans for a long time, even before taking over , back in Second renaissance we see very clrearly human looking robots.

why indian? why american?well, it could even be the same as the human's Residual Self Image, I mean as we see in matriculated, when given a broader choice not even humans have fully human RSIs nor does the runner, they all have a colorful spiky haired exagerated perception of themselves. Maybe it's just a matter of what elements are available for representing the RSIs, like when you are creating a "custom" character in a MMORPG, you may not see yourself with big anime eyes, but if that's all there is you just choose the most fitting and use it, the same could be for both humans and machines in the matrix, all of the RSIs are depictions of their minds, based on standards posible for humans in the real world.

But, now that I start thinking about the oracle changing shells, and how she woke up in the exact body Smith left behind...does seem kind of significant, as if she WAS stored in a human shell.