»Proof that Zion is a Matrix within Matrix«

This is my first post! I have been reading the matrix forum for quite sometime and thought it was about time that I said something. I will post all my ideas here!

Good morning MatrixArchitect, welcome to the forums.

I hope you enjoy your time here and would love to hear your theories and ideas on any part of the matrix whether they are usual or unusual.

Unfortunately I am on a different time zone to most people I have spoken to within this forum so I will be saying good night to you and heading off to bed.

I just wanted to welcome you to the Matrix Explained forums.

First we must set some facts:

There is a REAL WORLD --> The world that really exists. This is the world where AI was created. (I hope you can understand)

There is a Zion outside every matrix (I will explain)

All Artificial Inteligences are programs. -->The are not robots. We (humans) our very conciousness (I can think thus I am) is Us. It is like in " The second renaissance" (animatrix) Where a machine says

Quote:

Your body is but a relic ...

Our bodies are just "robots" with input output. The "control program" is in the brain. Machines are exactly the same. Squidies, for example, have a program that controls them. The program can move the "tentacles", input form the "eyes" e.t.c.

Ok! So here is my first theory!

We know that at some point in history (lets call it year X) machines created the matrix and "enslaved" humans in it. From what I know, there are 2 parts in "creating" and then inserting a human into the matrix. First (Somehow) a human zygote is "grow" into a baby. Because the apperence (face etc.) is not set by the machines (residual self-image), and because children almost always look like their parents, we know that when a couple have sex in the matrix, the male's sperm and the females egg must be collected.
The sperm and egg are then transferd to "the field", which is the place above ground, that has irregular shaped "towers" of pods. This is where those "floating things with long legs" are.
All the infants that die are liquified and fed to the living. An infant that survivies is inserted in the MATRIX. The cylinder shaped tower with regularly placed pods. This may be an explaination of why infants seem to be "brainless" till 3-4. Because the machines have to "grow" the baby, and then "Copy" the program of speech-learning e.t.c. because there is no real parent involved.

i fail to see how any of that relates to your initial claim of PROOF of a matrix within a matrix

you seem to think that the child in the matrix can only look like its parents if the baby which is in the pod is genetically similar yet at the same time you acknowledge that the appearence of a person in the matrix is residual self image

the baby doesnt know what it looks like so how can it project its image...the only explanation is that the machines control the residual self image and so they would not need the matching human reproductive cells from the matrix parents

The first matrix was perfect. As the bible tells us, it was paradise. But humans could always choose to leave (choice) - the fruit of knowledge of good and evil (or something). The bible then says that "the sin" was carried by all the desendants of "adam and eve".

Most chose (subconciously) to leave. So "the architect" reprogrammed the matrix based on human history. Which means humans pass (for the second time) "through" history. (this time in the matrix.)

But what happens when the matrix reaches the year when man develops A.I.? Does the matrix loop? I don't think it can. If it starts from the begining, some humans will inevitibly have to be killed ( because the population of the "earth in the matrix" must mach that of the people plugged in. And if these people are killed, the machines will face an energy crisis.

If it doesn't loop, the matrix will reach the year when robots serve humans, robots rebel aganinst humans and eventually robots enslave humans. But if robots IN THE MATRIX enslave humans in a matrix IN THE MATRIX, we have a matrix in the matrix. This matrix in the matrix first start, as the really first matrix, from the beggining (entire crops were lost, the matrix was redesigned based on human history e.t.c)

Logically, there must be many matrixes within matrixes. This explaines alot of things.

First --> Thanks from welcoming me to the forum! I lived in australia for 8 years in Cook, Canberra. (this has nothing to do with the matrix)

Second --> I had not finished posting my theory, so read on.
About the "Residual self image". Aren't you always able to "picture" yourself in any position. (Like if you have one eye closed and your lips stretched ?) This may not be solid proof, but it's possible.

Why the hell do programs have human form?

I don't know.

The matrix has green code whereas the source has golden code. All minds can interpret matrix-code. The code defines what they should see, feel, hear, taste and smell.

Programs like Sati's dad ( i forgot his name but I will enter it when I see revolutions again) have human form ( for a reson I can't explain). Sati's dad is a program that isn't in a sentinel. He probably functions in a "computer" that controls the power of the PODs. A program can't exist in real life. It must be in a "body" (I hope you can understand). The "train station" is like a the "cable" that conects the matrix to the Zero1 "computer". You can't just connect a cable between 2 computers and copy ... You need a protocol that both computers use e.t..c. This is the "train". Data is transfered through to the matrix in a data packet ( the train).

Brialliant ideas. I disagree with them. But still....very good thinking.

Welcome to the forum.

Please tell me ...

) I will make a new thread about residual Self Image !

I found the answer

(When I am happy, I go )

You are basing your theories on the idea of Zion as a fictional Matrix. If Zion is in fact a Matrix then we really know nothing of the real world and it is entirely left up to our imaginations. For all we know the whole movie was about one guy in a coma and dreaming up the whole thing. (which would not be cool)

My point is, you can't use the idea of machines raising humans for energy or even creating a matrix to keep humans alive because Zion would in fact be a Matrix, therefore made up by someone or something. You couldn't use anything that was said in the entire trilogy as a reference because none of it would be 'real'. They could create the Zion Matrix similar to what the real world would be but why would they. There would be no logic in letting any of the truth come out at all in a matrix designed for control.

If Zion is in fact a Matrix in a Matrix then the possibilities of the humans true reality is infinite. There could be aliens who have taken over the earth instead of machines or some secret government testing. Because of the open endedness of the Matrix within a Matrix theory, I choose not to believe it. I still believe that Zion is the ‘real’ world. Neo became stronger because of mind over matter.

MatrixArchitect wrote:

But what happens when the matrix reaches the year when man develops A.I.? Does the matrix loop? I don't think it can. If it starts from the begining, some humans will inevitibly have to be killed ( because the population of the "earth in the matrix" must mach that of the people plugged in. And if these people are killed, the machines will face an energy crisis.

There is no guarantee that humans will ever develop A.I. inside the "matrix simulation". Humans have free will inside The Matrix, so, what happened to humanity in the real world, isn't necessarily what will take place inside The Matrix. And I'm pretty sure that if the machines see it coming, they would send agents to terminate the scientists involved in the process. So that's not really an issue. I like the way you think though.

[quote="MatrixArchitect"] This is my first post! I have been reading the matrix forum for quite sometime and thought it was about time that I said something. I will post all my ideas here![/quote]

the Oracle said "that the powers of the one reach FAR beyond this world" (the matrix).

he can do anything anywhere!

the matrix is supposed to be a loop from one "one" to the next as the archtect said that if Neo gose thought the door to the source the matrix will reboot and start again.

If the matrix reboots then they will be able to erase the memories of humans as like in M1 when syfur wants back into the matrix he said he did not want to remember anything and wanted to be a actor.

So if the the re boot is supposed to happen then they can control the period of time it is set for those 100 years. Say from 1900 to 2000 ( wow just thought that the reboot is supposed to happen just like the Y2K bug, interesting).

Now the reason I think that Zion is a Matrix inside the Matrix is a way of control of the 0.1 percent that make the choice to leave the Matrix.Like the archtect said Neo was a form of control for the people of Zion they would believe in the one and help him get to the source ( which means re boot). So the loop would start all over again.

But when Neo choose no to take the door he alters the plan of the matrix and the counter reation is Smith who is on his second purpose ( as I belive that a program can have more than one pupose ,what do you call multi tasking, but to start on their second purpose they have to choose exile from the machine world) please take note that the key maker is an exile and his purpose is to get Neo to the door. How can this be possible for an exile, they have no pupose that is why they are be deleted.

Oh my god its wingless

The machines have powerful weapons and highly advanced machinery but have to dig/ fight Zionites for 100 years and cannot get their energy from above the clouds?

The machines are not real. Appearances can be deceiving.

* Why did the machines invent the Matrix simulation at all? All they need to do is to cut a few nerves in the brain to make the bodies helpless.

Control. The people must be deceived all of the time. However, you can't deceive all of the people all of the time. Hence, the Zion simulation.

* Why are most whites the bad guys?

Race is irrelevant.

* Why do the heroes wear sunglasses and leather?
Pure gloss? Stylish bloat?

It represents high fashion designer ware. If you could afford it, you'd probably wear it. In the Matrix, though, money is irrelevant.

* How could Zion be destroyed and repopulated already 5 times? What happened with all the debris? An important question dealing about whether Zion is real or just another rebootable simulation.

It is a simulation. That is how Neo was able to stop the machines in the Zion simulation.

* Why is Trinity Trinity? What's so three-ish about her? The Wachowski said that every name was chosen very carefully. Was it? She has a side role (who hasn't?) and dies.

The trilogy is a careful exploration of at least two major religions. In the Christian exploration, Trinity represents the holy spirit. Morpheus represents the Father God, who has been designed as the perfect alpha male, who believes in The One- which is why he manages to convince Zion's people about the prophecy... and Trinity, the protector, who protects and comforts Neo at all costs: why?- because they have been programmed to fall in love. They are all programs: that is why Oracle can appear to tell them the future.




* Is Neo really dead at the end of the movie?

Neo was never alive, in reality. He is the opposite of Agent Smith...a program. That is why they cancel each other out, and leave behind the assimilated Oracle...this is why the Oracle didn't resist assimilation - she knew what Neo's program would lead to.

* Is the Merovingian dead?

Was he ever alive?

* What will happen with the girl Sati?

Who cares?

* Are all humans dead after Smith took over them? Has the refreshed Matrix any humans at all?
Smith: "Do you like what I have done with this place?"

No, he was a parasite which took over the host avatars. When he was phase cancelled by Neo, the people remained. The cancellation of Neo and agent smith would leave behind the original avatars.

Hell, where do we see how the deterioration of the Matrix occurs bit by bit?

We don't need to.

Where do we see how the system tries to beat back Smith?

The whole trilogy is about it. Smith and Neo are part of the system. Smith and Neo are being used to fool the Zion people into believing that peace now exists. It doesn't. Zion's people are under control almost as much as The Matrix people.

* Do we see how he takes over more and more people?

His code was written in order to give the Matrix people something tangible to fight.
By taking over all the human avatars, he would appear to be an enemy.
It is exactly the same for the sentinels. They are code. They are there to give Zion something to fight against, and Neo and Smith are there to give the illusion of peace.

* Smith flies now. Why? How did he learn it?

Tell you later.

* Smith meets Sati and Seraph. What happens then?

Tell you later.

* Trinity dies (much too long) after a few scenes. Why so fast? Why so long?

Her purpose was complete. There was nothing to protect Neo from. It is the reason Neo didn't bring her back from the dead.

* Morpheus is degraded to a driver's mate.

His purpose was complete. He had convinced the people that the One was real. The real purpose was left to Kid, from the Kid's story. Kid is a program. Think about this: Morpheus one failing is that he believes the Oracle - she has been placed there to tell the Peace programs what they need to do.

* Persephone has just 1 sentence to say.

That is not a question.
* Link & Zee...what a boring couple. Even the relationship between Trinity and Neo is boring. The movie tries to hide it beneath theatrical music volumes.

Maybe they are boring. Maybe they are real. What is real?

Skink wrote:

The machines have powerful weapons and highly advanced machinery but have to dig/ fight Zionites for 100 years and cannot get their energy from above the clouds? Not answered.

actually...it is answered...

the machines destroy zion when the anomaly becomes a threat...this is explained in the architect speech in reloaded

and the electrical storms in the clouds prevent the machines from going above them....hence the logos shuts down and the sentinals fall off it when it goes through the clouds...similar to the effects of an emp

Skink wrote:

* Why did the machines invent the Matrix simulation at all? All they need to do is to cut a few nerves in the brain to make the bodies helpless.

actually no...because the machines utilise energy from the bodies actions as well...bio electric energy as well as body heat

an active body produces more heat than a paralysed one...and an active brain produces more electricla energy than a comatose one

Neo's not a program, bum.

What got to me more than anything on the thought of zion being another matrix construct is the 'NO ACCIDENTS,' the 'coincidenses' of the (Icarus, forgot, can't even think of ...oh Sorens vessel, right) ship by the sentinel bomb during the HIDDEN LEVEL to Source Path sequence.

Now HOW can these things happen like clockwork, exact...combined w/Matrix happenings & 'zion-real-world/sewers' happenings?

I, mean, sure...there's divine providence...but that's not in this movie, is a misnomer on the films basis. In real life GOD could intervene...but that just can't fit or be put successfully in this particular part of the story line.

It's like IT'S ALL CHOREOGRAPHED!

Also at end Morph says 'IS THIS REAL'....
Sure, he's giving the audience a specific 'thumper question' obviously intended to arouse suspicion. If there's more to it than that, then I think Zion may be a different Matrix Construct.

Cypher says, "I disagree, I think the matrix can be more real than this world.'

"You can't go back!"....but turns out THAT'S NOT TRUE. It does appear Cypher can go back. (Really that's not much of an arguement, but adds a little)

Morph in M1 says 'merely electrical signals your brain interprets as real...taste, touch, smell....and sight!

"I wouldn't believe it until I SAW it with MY OWN EYES (in his head/brain!)"

ALSO: MAJOR, what's that camera swirly-squiggly effect about? I 'thought' it was to show between real/unreal...& also real-time/to other time....but ALSO seems MORE like it's SAYING THAT'S NOT REAL EITHER...or I'm going between different 'unrealities.'

Now, if Zion is also a Matrix, Machine City is as well. It doesn't mean there's not the actual real Machine City....but that may be separate!

Zion & the Machine City are supposed to be in that REAL WORLD construct.

There's the 'Galaxy Milky-Way-like' scene & others that appear to show everything connected & coming from the SOURCE (this being the Machine Mainframe ...{Not talking about GOD here...but He would be around to OVER everything, actually....but that's not a part of the movie, except in allegory, etc.})....

...& Neo's 'real world' powers are because of his genetic-designing extras, evolution & contact so far w/EXTRA's, including a connection w/the Source/Machine Source-ENERGY itself....which is WHY he can see machine City & stop sentinels. That's the ONLY reason.

...but that can also mean that Machine City & Zion are also MATRIX CONSTRUCTS. (Just as plausible as not!)

In Rev's intro, that one symbol looks like a SATTELITE to me, makes me think the way it was shown...that there may be MANY DIFFERENT MATRIX CONSTRUCTS & they communicate between each other, like satelites do for things.

The Zion City & Docks are in DIFFERENT SHELL ENCASEMENTS...indicating the idea of various SHELLS OF MATRICES.

Also there's that Reloaded Intro of DOUBLE TRINITY/AGENTS in the falling sequence...a copy falling facing opposite of the 'real' one falling.
I never got an ANSWER to this yet, by anyone....but it appears to me that it's suggesting some STRING THEORY, parallel universe, or the matrix story happening in different places, at the same time....&/OR...also could be depicting the Matrix Structure of NEO'S DREAM VISION of TRINITY FALLING...& is just showing that.

But neo sees that MATRIX VISION/HAPPENING IN THE MATRIX....he has this dream in the 'real world, in zion.'

It could be 'deja-vu'? Just showing Matrix really getting messed up at that time & point/...or what about Architect, etc. CHANGED something in the Matrix because of the door choice, or the possibility of such, etc. & that there were actually TWO double matrixes RUNNING AT THE SAME TIME!
As such, IF ...one Neo choice ended bad...only a certain portion of PODS would die...while the simultaneous other Matrix sequence would get it just right!(all those pods fine & all reloaded purefectly, eh?)

I really think they are all MATRIXES, but....I don't think takes away from the meaning & significance of all the ideas built into the film.

There's more, probably forgotten....but what's your thoughts on these analyses?

Also one other MAJOR THING: The PILLS!
You've got the RED ...and the BLUE.
BOTH AFFECT YOU...they put you INTO DIFFERENT MATRIX's is all!

The blue pill, you wake up in your bed & believe whatever you want to believe (and who's to say that ALL of the actual goings on the the matrix for EACH POD really is only THEIR, SINGULAR, VERY OWN dream world...& whatever THEY want it to be! or 'BELIEVE' it to be...or believe it INTO being...creating their very own world. They'd still believe the basic 'reality' thing & their whole DREAM LIFE might not actually be that for off from the real one!)

The RED PILL: well, we've seen what that looks like. But it may really ONLY input a data sequence into Neo, etc. that merely makes him COMPATIBLE w/this NEW, OTHER MATRIX CONSTRUCT, 'the real' 'the real world!'

Hell, I'll probably think of another idea in a minute...but
I'm Out.

it's an interesting idea.. BUT.. the mighty Wachowskis themselves have stated that the red pill is to pinpoint the location of the person in the power plant.

dammit, here's another, lol (I KNEW i wasn't out, YET.)

Oh no, I forgot! Can you believe that. And it was awesome...& a 1st timer....hm, let me think....

Ah yeah: now what about the 16+7 = total 23 people to rebuild zion, picked from the matrix. That seems a definite reference to impregnation, reimpregnating zion...to the CHROMOSOME thing, 46 total, 1/2 from EACH PLACE?

You've got the holes in your back & the non holes in your back.
You gotta combine them FOR THE WHOLE MATRIX WITHIN A MATRIX CONSTRUCTS to work for everyone-Machine or Human or BOTH....whoever REALLY out there in the REAL REAL WORLD.

Those Sentinel are like sperm cells....rushing in to impregnate the womb-zion....& 1/2 of the needed 'chromosomes' are coming, oh yes from the MATRIX, & the other half from 'here'...or near here.

Also, the womb has to recognize & accept the cells to allow communion so to speak. It's all in there double matrix codings.

They both have their codings, both matrixes & are coded out just like DNA....& have built in instructions in all the little cells, each to do their own PURPOSE, INSTRUCTION SET. (Programs...all could be programs in the sense that the/if thoughts are controlled in evolution, then that could be construed as programmed as well, kind of a program.

I do think Neo is part program. It's in his hand, that the Oracle jerked back when she saw it. He has the GIFT, the CODE of the 01 built in.
______________________
One other possibility is a kind of MELDING of all Matrix worlds WITH the genuine real world...in some form & fashion....or even if it's only intermittent.

THE END

...on technical difficulties, edited to deleted this post.