»NEO CHANGED NOTHING.«

Neo did nothing different that that of the other 5.
everything happended the same as the others did.

Did zion get destoryed? (yes)

Did Neo's (species) die? (yes) -Neo's both program and human-(different from mankind)

Did he get disseminated? (yes)

everything that the achetect said that would happen did.

(that is if he WAS telling the truth and evidence points towards this)
and if he was LYING then all CREDIBILITY is lost towards machines, cause this means that they could go back on their word at any time.
(this eliminates the theory of machines cannot lie)

so if they CAN lie then what evidence is there to help mankind?
after all wouldnt it be easier to just keep them inside the matrix and wipe them out? (remember neo is "probably dead, and hes now blind" and the machines are CLEARLY in control)

In 1 apect war NEVER ends, it just becomes temporarily subsided with peace.

peace is the abscense of war.
did mankind get peace?
yes. Temporarily, cause thats all peace is.
and when they free enough minds which = machines dying off.
the machines will resort to SURVIVAL and fight back.

the machines won because there will ALWAYS be people in the matrix.
and the whole point of the first 2 movies was for the mankind to be FREE of it and NOT to compromise with the machines.
You CAN have both, it just didnt happen and it SUCKS.
[/b]

What the hell are you talking about?

Slow down and speak in complete thoughts. What you said makes no sense.

Starbuck

Raksasha69 wrote:

Neo did nothing different that that of the other 5. everything happended the same as the others did.

Seem like the idea of integration and peacful coexistance got lost on you.

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Did zion get destoryed? (yes)

Zion got destroyed to a great extent, but most people survived. If it had happened as before, they would all be dead!

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Neo's both program and human-(different from mankind)

that's just a theory, I don't agree with

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Did he get disseminated? (yes)

IMO he even becomes the essence of he source -> his experiences, his love, his free will... become the essence of the source.

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everything that the achetect said that would happen did.

the architect told Neo, that - if he didn't choose the right door - there would be a cataclysmic system crash, that would result in the death of every human beeing connected to the Matrix. And Zion would be destroyed and every living inhabitant irradicated - wich means the extinction of the entire human race.
Well,.... in the end of Revolution.... most Zionites survive, the Matrix still exists, with Neo beeing it's essence - meaning the Matrix now is a more human environment.
And,.... every human beeing who rejects his virtual life will be freed!

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(that is if he WAS telling the truth and evidence points towards this) and if he was LYING then all CREDIBILITY is lost towards machines, cause this means that they could go back on their word at any time. (this eliminates the theory of machines cannot lie)

Oracle: "I have your word?"
Architect: "What do you think I am? Human?"
There is no moment in the trilogy that hints at any program/machine lying.

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In 1 apect war NEVER ends, it just becomes temporarily subsided with peace. peace is the abscense of war. did mankind get peace? yes. Temporarily, cause thats all peace is. and when they free enough minds which = machines dying off. the machines will resort to SURVIVAL and fight back. the machines won because there will ALWAYS be people in the matrix.

Have you seen the Second Renessaince? It is clearly stated that man started the aggression and the war, and machine attempts to gain a peacful co-existance were rejected by mankind.
Mankind was even ready to destroy it's own world/environment to get rid of the machines, since they were a danger to man's economy!
The enslavement of mankind in the Matrix was a reaction of the machines, because of human aggression, not an action.

So how can the end be understood?
It is clear that all of mankind could not survive without the Matrix. Man himself destroyed the real world, and this environment could not provide enough food, clothes, shelter, warmth... for millions of people.
MANKIND CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT THE MATRIX - at least not for the moment.
Neo solved the anomaly problem for the Matrix. Human choice is now an integrated rule within the Matrix, giving humans free choice to stay or leave (99% will most likely choose to stay).
Zion is now no longer only a part of the prophecy, that is destroyed regularely. If the peace can last, it will be able to provide a save home for all real world humans.

Neo gave mankind peace and a new start (or better, he made the machines give mankind a second chance). He couldn't give more. A lasting peace cannot be made; it has to be lived!

It's now up to mankind!
They can either choose that this peace is not enough, start a new war and be eventually eradicated from earth.

Or they can choose a peaceful coexistance with the machines.
That would give them the option to cooperate with the machines in unscorching the sky and making the surface of earth a place for humans to live, again. This would be almost inevitable, since with those humans unplugged from the Matrix and those born in Zion, Zionites would eventually outgrow their place.
With the sky unscorched, the machines could get their energy from the sun,....and eventually the Matrix would become obsolete....

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and the whole point of the first 2 movies was for the mankind to be FREE of it and NOT to compromise with the machines. You CAN have both, it just didnt happen and it SUCKS.

The whole point of the FIRST movie was for mankind to be free and kick the machines' butt.
But then the machines were just a cold and anonymous and enemy. During the sequels we experience the Oracle as a program, Seraph, Rama Kandra and his family. We hear the dialogue between Neo and Hamann ("So we need machines and they need us"). We learn that there is sympathy for mankind and an eqivalent for love in the machine world. We learn that the machines have a right to live just as the humans do.
And we learn that, in order to make sure for the survival of both, they have to cooperate, they have to live the symbiosis the machines started. Only that way the Matrix could one day become obsolete, as stated above.

With this end the brothers hold a huge mirror in our faces and ask us, if mankind is capable of a peace at all.

In the end the Oracle (who has a huge understanding of mankind) says: the peace is going to last "As long as it can".

Why could it eventually end?
Because there are people who want everything, who are not able to make a compromise. Because there are people who see only the negative (the Matrix still existing - even though it is inevitable for mankids survival, due to man's actions in the past), instead of the the potential in this end (the Matrix becoming obsolete one day, if man and machine cooperate).
Because there will always be someone to start a war....

Well ....The sky is blue now....thats nice isn't it?

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that's just a theory, I don't agree with

i WISH the theory was wrong, but it just makes too much sense, where the other ones do not.
*the fact that he just MAGICALLY does things is crap.*

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dissemination : the act or process of scattering or state of being scattered; usually referring to distribution of information

his information got "scattered" through the matrix and into the other smiths.
which is how the people of the matrix got free of him.

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the architect told Neo, that - if he didn't choose the right door - there would be a cataclysmic system crash, that would result in the death of every human beeing connected to the Matrix. And Zion would be destroyed and every living inhabitant irradicated - wich means the extinction of the entire human race.

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There is no moment in the trilogy that hints at any program/machine lying.

the door to your right leads to HER and the "end of your species"

end of your species?
did that happen?
not according to YOU.
so YOUR saying hes lying and not me.
either hes lying or hes telling the truth.

and if hes telling the truth, then how the hell did he know what was going to happen?
he explained EVERYTHING that was going to happen and DID happen.

- how does he know?
if NEO did something DIFFERENT the archetect wouldnt see the future cause he "wouldnt understand" -no one can see past a choice they dont understand.-
but he DID understand and he saw what was going to happen because it happend before.

no. what he says is "FAILURE TO COMPLY." and NOT "if you dont choose the right door"
comply simply means comply with the "PROCESS" meaning he has to choose "A" door. because either one ends in the same result.
and that his coming would "hail the destruction of the matrix and end the war"
did the matrix get "destroyed?"
in a manner of speaking, it changed then it was re-created.
and in all DEFINITIONS it can be considered destroyed becuase nothing ever gets 'destroyed' per say, it only changes its "FORM"
did the matrix "change its form?"
yes.
did neo "END THE WAR?"
yes becuase there is PEACE.
but will there be ANOTHER war?
yes.
because its happend before and it will happen AGAIN.

*this will be the 6th time that we have destroyed it*
did it get destroyed?
YES.
In the same way a HOUSE can get destroyed by a fire and the people still walk out and watch it burn to the ground.

*the function of the one is to return to the source allowing a TEMPORARY desimination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program.
Did NEO return to the source?
yes. *the source was NOT the archetects room*
did his code get desminated?
yes. (by smith)
did the prime program of the matrix get reinserted?
yes.
(the orginal matrix was RESTORED)
after which you will be required to select people(i.e. the SURVIVORS of zion) to "rebuild zion"
-this hasnt happend yet because the film ended after -Desemination- or NEOS death.
failure to comply with this process will kill everyone in the matrix-
this didnt happen because he COMPLIED.
he CHOSE a door.
the others experience this in a general way
your emotion is far more specific
vesavi LOVE.
which brings us to(meaning that he knew what was going to happen next)
where the fundimental flaw is EXPRESSED as both beggining and end.
-in other words right then and there he would see the expression of how everything was going to happen.

BOTH doors ended in the way that the archetect wanted.

the door to your left leads to the "source and the salvation of zion"

what the hell was he going to do there?
the same stupid thing as before.
(murge with SMITH)

the door to your right leads to her and to the end of your species.
-he wasnt referring to "your speces" as the HUMAN race he was referring to the "ONES" or "NEOS"
and who knows if he was then maybe it will end in the matrix online.
we havent seen what happens after DESEMINATION.

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The whole point of the FIRST movie was for mankind to be free and kick the machines' butt

TRUE.
-but there was more of a "well defined ending"

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But then the machines were just a cold and anonymous and enemy. During the sequels we experience the Oracle as a program, Seraph, Rama Kandra and his family. We hear the dialogue between Neo and Hamann ("So we need machines and they need us").

this happend in #2 but we still dont KNOW that we NEED them (not yet)

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We learn that there is sympathy for mankind and an eqivalent for love in the machine world. We learn that the machines have a right to live just as the humans do.

if you watched the ANIMATRIX (which happens before all of them and was released Before #2 then you would already know that.

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And we learn that, in order to make sure for the survival of both, they have to cooperate, they have to live the symbiosis the machines started. Only that way the Matrix could one day become obsolete, as stated above.

they dont HAVE to live in symbiosis, SYMBIOSIS by DEFINITION means "not nessiarily needed for survival"
*they COULD have ended the movie with -a blue sky on earth-
-but GOD forbid EVERYONE gets what they want -freedom and SURVIVAL.
mankind wanted freedom (didnt get it)
and machines wanted survival. _they got it at the cost of machine death.

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(the Matrix still existing - even though it is inevitable for mankids survival, due to man's actions in the past)

its not inevitable for mankids survival, if ANYTHING the machines need it.
but even THEY do not.
a COMPROMISE means your "giving up" something.
and compromises are BAD.
there is ALWAYS a 3rd option against a compromise where everyone can get what they want.
and if YOU cant think of it, thats YOUR problem.

the machines could work with mankind to make earth MORE inhabitable and create a world like one in the matrix (blue sky and all)
and live together with machines.

god forbid THAT happend in an ending. cause that might actually be a GOOD ending.

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instead of the the potential in this end (the Matrix becoming obsolete one day, if man and machine cooperate

there is NOTHING that says the machines will follow their word and free the people of the matrix.

if NEO did something then the archetect was lying and that means the machines credibility to keep their word means NOTHING.

OK,...this is how I understand it:

During the process of trying to create a virtual reality that would satisfy mankind, the machines eventually learned that man does need to be given a choice, but they didn't really understand human choice. Thus they created the choice-Matrix, that gave mankind a theoretical, unconscious choice to accept their virtual life or not.
99% of the humans accept this virtual reality. But 1% do not. Just like Neo in M1, or the Kid in the Animatrix, they feel that there is something wrong in their life and they reject it. But without any consequence as to their situation within the system. Remember what Morpheus says in M1:
"You see you may have spent the last few years looking for me...". They are living inside the Matrix, being able to reject it, but not being able to escape it.
I think, it is this rejection of the system inside the system, that increasingly flaws the Matrix, resulting in the emergence of the One.

The machines know that - in order to be able to deal with this anomaly (the rejection of the choice-Matrix, embodied by the One) - it needs to be incorporated into the system to upgrade it.
Thus the prophecy, including Zion, are invented. Some of the 1% rejecting the matrix make it to Zion. They are needed to find, train and give shelter to the One, and make sure that he will make it to the architect room.
But they cannot be allowed to grow too powerful. Thus, when the One returns to the source, Zion is destroyed and every human being living in the real world is killed.
But eventually the system will be flawed again, resulting in the emergence of another One. Thus, another Zion is needed. So the "old" One, after reloading the Matrix, has to choose 23 individuals from the Matrix to rebuild Zion for the next cycle.

This is what the right door in the architect room is all about. To keep up the cycle of reloading a choice-Matrix that doesn't really give mankind a choice.
And that is how far the architect can see.
He knows that - if the One doesn't comply with his function (choosing the right door and reloading the Matrix) - the Matrix will inevitably crash. And he knows that Zion will be destroyed and it's inhabitants killed, with the machines retreating to "levels of survival we are prepared to accept".
This is what would happen, if Neo chose the left door, then put his hands into his laps and did nothing else.

But the architect does not know what Neo is capable of.

If you look closely, Neo does choose neither door in the architect room. He leaves through the left door, since there is no other way out, but he doesn't accept the options connected with this door by the architect.
Neo has love and hope, he chooses to break the cycle and to go on and save mankind from it's doom.

So what does change when he finally makes it to the source in Revolutions?
In the crater, Neo has made a true human choice, influenced by nothing but himself ("because I choose to"). This choice is incorporated into the system -> free choice finally becomes a rule within the system.
Humans will not only be able to reject the Matrix,... now... the system itself will free them if they choose to.
Zion is no longer a part of the prophecy, that has to be destroyed regularly. Zion is now free to exist and grow.
With Sati, there is a program accepted inside the Matrix, that represents the machine equivalent for love and is not bound to a purpose. She can become a bridge between man and machine.

With this peace, mankind has every chance to get back to a peaceful life without the Matrix (as mentioned in my above post),....if they can live up to this chance!


To get to your answer in detail:

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his information got "scattered" through the matrix and into the other smiths. which is how the people of the matrix got free of him.

His code gets spread over the source, enabling the source to "learn" from him, from his character, his experiences, his understanding for the machine world, his love, his choice....
Neo becomes the spirit of the (Matrix) universe, the essence of the source.
Do the people of the Matrix get free because of this? I guess rather not. IMO they are freed, before Neo's code is disseminated in the source. Neo is connected to the source, and when Smith - who is disconnected from the source - enters Neo, the source can - so to say - grab him and delete him (not touching on the phylosophy here). This happens before the deja vu cat appears symbolizing the reload.

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end of your species? did that happen? not according to YOU. so YOUR saying hes lying and not me. either hes lying or hes telling the truth....

see above

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we havent seen what happens after DESEMINATION

Other than what I've described above, I can also tell you that - from what I've read - in Matrix Online humans that are in favour of the Matrix, will fight rebels that still want to destroy it.
So,.. it will not be man vs. machine, but man vs. man.

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if you watched the ANIMATRIX (which happens before all of them and was released Before #2 then you would already know that.

Where in the Animatrix doe we learn about machine love?
And beyond takes place in 2003.

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they dont HAVE to live in symbiosis, SYMBIOSIS by DEFINITION means "not nessiarily needed for survival" *they COULD have ended the movie with -a blue sky on earth-

Symbiosis:
The relation between two different kinds of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefit from the other

I see the blue sky in the end of Revolutions,... as a chance given to mankind, if they can live up to it (as already mentioned above).
The sky isn't unscorched just like that. Neither man nor machine have the technology to do it. They have to cooperate to create the technology before they can use it.
Seeing the blue sky in the end, would IMO have been a typical, unrealistic Hollywood ending.

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-but GOD forbid EVERYONE gets what they want -freedom and SURVIVAL. mankind wanted freedom (didnt get it) and machines wanted survival. _they got it at the cost of machine death its not inevitable for mankind’s survival, if ANYTHING the machines need it. but even THEY do not.

After robbing the earth of the sunshine, that provides mankind with food, light and warmth…, how do you think billions of people, now plugged into the Matrix, can survive? With only the little food, places to live, clothes…., that an almost destroyed Zion can provide?
With 200.000 people, Zion already was a cramped place,… how about billions?
And even if they had unscorcged the sky in the end, it still would take years to grow enough food, build enough homes, make enough clothes (what from?) for billions of people.
In any case, the existance of the matrix is inevitable for the time beeing, if the masses plugged into it are to survive.

Not to mention the psychological problems that people would suffer from, when being unplugged forcefully. Remember, 99% accept their virtual life, as Morpheus says: “…many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it”.
Would that be freedom? To rob them of their nice little virtual reality, they have chosen to accept, and force them to live in a dark and cold real world, as seen in the movies.
Who has the right to choose?

As it is now, those people that want to be freed, will be freed.
If man and machine can manage to cooperate in unscorching the sky, the Matrix might one day become obsolete, giving man and machine a new life and the chance the free the Matrix humans gradually and gently

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and compromises are BAD.

WOW!

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there is ALWAYS a 3rd option against a compromise where everyone can get what they want. and if YOU cant think of it, thats YOUR problem. the machines could work with mankind to make earth MORE inhabitable and create a world like one in the matrix (blue sky and all) and live together with machines. god forbid THAT happend in an ending. cause that might actually be a GOOD ending.

That is most likely what will happen post Revolutions,… if mankind can get that far without starting another war. You know,… not being able to make compromises…well….increases the danger of another war dramatically….

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there is NOTHING that says the machines will follow their word and free the people of the matrix.

Oracle: I have your word?
Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

I think, that says it all.

I suggest you watch the Second Renaissance, again.
And if that doesn’t help,… take some history books or just a newspaper, and read about mankind’s potential to live in peace…

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He leaves through the left door, since there is no other way out, but he doesn't accept the options connected with this door by the architect

you CANT separate neos "acceptance" and the choice of the "door"

choosing the door IS the acceptance of the system.
-the evidence?-

everything the archetect said actually happend.
and if it didnt?
then he was lying.
and remember if he was lying then that means that the machines can lie too.
which is CRAP.

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In the crater, Neo has made a true human choice, influenced by nothing but himself ("because I choose to"). This choice is incorporated into the system -> free choice finally becomes a rule within the system

this denotes a TOTALLY selfless act.
which if you understand psychology DOESNT EXIST.

there is ALWAYS a "reason" connected to everything.
its not just "BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO"
he did the right thing because of his PROGRAM that says he is "connected to the survival of his speceis"
if he DIDNT have this he wouldnt have made the choice.
(according to the W bros)

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Humans will not only be able to reject the Matrix,... now... the system itself will free them if they choose to.

theres no proof of this.
NONE.
instead the evidence points the other way. (machines being in control and zion being destoryed and the war continuing)

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Zion is no longer a part of the prophecy, that has to be destroyed regularly. Zion is now free to exist and grow.

Zion was, and always WILL BE a part of the prophecy, it HAS to be.
(the 1% is needed for balance-i.e. the oracle and "the one")
if there is no more ZION then where would the next NEO goto?
nowhere.

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With Sati, there is a program accepted inside the Matrix, that represents the machine equivalent for love and is not bound to a purpose. She can become a bridge between man and machine.

everything is bound to a purpose.
and if you dont think so then your wrong.
"if we dont have a purpose we wouldnt exist"
-her PURPOSE could be the "bridge itself"-
as YOU so put it.

there is a REASON for everything and everyone.
the merovingian only THOUGHT that she didnt.
he was wrong.

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With this peace, mankind has every chance to get back to a peaceful life without the Matrix (as mentioned in my above post),....if they can live up to this chance!

without the matrix?
what about the poor machines? or POOR PROGAMS?
are you just gonna shut the matrix down?
what about poor SATI?
or POOR ORACLE?
they NEED the matrix to exist.

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His code gets spread over the source, enabling the source to "learn" from him, from his character, his experiences, his understanding for the machine world, his love, his choice....

oh, so they didnt LEARN from the other 5?
those were meaningless?
whatever.
and just because they learn from his "love" doesnt change a thing, after all they know "love" already.
IN FACT they can ALSO "love" for themselves. (apparently)
that point is "pointless"

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Neo becomes the spirit of the (Matrix) universe, the essence of the source

.

why would there be a MATRIX ONLINE if NEO had control of the "machine god" or the "source"
if that was your "point"
which is unbelieveable nonsense.

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Do the people of the Matrix get free because of this? I guess rather not. IMO they are freed, before Neo's code is disseminated in the source.

yeah boy all of those people who are being controlled by agent smith.
WOW i want THAT kind of freedom.
PLEASE SATAN TAKE MY BODY SO I MAY BE "FREE"

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Neo is connected to the source, and when Smith - who is disconnected from the source - enters Neo, the source can - so to say - grab him and delete him

yeah, this is the "process" and not the "MEANS" of his distruction.
neo's dissemination is the "only" means of eliminating the "smiths"

hes the only 1 man who can destroy smith, and his essence is the only one that can "push away" his power to absorb.
if your THEORY was true then they could get ANYONE "any stupid agent or HUMAN" to do the same stupid thing.
which is rediculous.

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Other than what I've described above, I can also tell you that - from what I've read - in Matrix Online humans that are in favour of the Matrix, will fight rebels that still want to destroy it. So,.. it will not be man vs. machine, but man vs. man.

yes thats TRUE, but whos side are the MEN who are fighting for the MATRIX?

oh yeah their on the side of FREEDOM and the side of ZION?
thats CRAP.

they are on the side of MACHINE.
who cares if they are "human"

they are fighting for the machines in the same way the security guards were in the FIRST matrix movie were.

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Where in the Animatrix doe we learn about machine love?

the one where they capture the machine and the machine falls in "love" with its captors.
(where they are trying to put the machine in a 'created' matrix to give the machine the choice to help them or not)

Symbiosis:
The relation between two different kinds of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefit from the other.

i can do that too.
Symbiosis - A close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms of different species that may, but does not necessarily, benefit each member. The relationship between nitrogen-fixing bacteria and roots of legumes is an example of a symbiotic relationship. The bacteria live in the roots of these legumes, and convert atmospheric nitrogen gas (not useful to plants) to nitrate, a plant nutrient. The bacteria benefit by having a good habitat in which to live, and the plants benefit by using the produced nitrate. Many other types of roots have symbiotic relationships with certain kinds of fungi

an example? algae

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The sky isn't unscorched just like that. Neither man nor machine have the technology to do it. They have to cooperate to create the technology before they can use it. Seeing the blue sky in the end, would IMO have been a typical, unrealistic Hollywood ending.

so they will NEVER have the technology to clear it?
and NEO being "all powerful" couldnt do it?
whatever.
boy technological advances do NOTHING.
whatver.
you can have a blue sky WITHOUT being "typical" frankly there have been TONS of movies that end in a "compromise"
-Daredevil- is just 1 example. (which was released before the 3 matrix movie)
-he DIDNT kill kingpin OR bullzie- there will be another "war" with daredevil again "someday" how long will peace last with kingpin in the "pen"
-as long as it can-
even though bullzie SHOULD have died.
but i guess im just a heartless prick.

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After robbing the earth of the sunshine, that provides mankind with food, light and warmth…, how do you think billions of people, now plugged into the Matrix, can survive? With only the little food, places to live, clothes…., that an almost destroyed Zion can provide?

again, ill say it AGAIN.
with ENOUGH technology and the mahines working "together"
god forbid a "happy" ending.
-boy i sure HATE happy endings -they are so "typical"-
thats CRAP.
every ending is when "the good guys win"
i want the BAD GUYS to win for once. *cause THAT would be MORE original*

see how STUPID that sounds?
EXACTLY.
so is a COMPROMISE.
when GOOD compromises with EVIL, its EVIL.

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With 200.000 people, Zion already was a cramped place,… how about billions? And even if they had unscorcged the sky in the end, it still would take years to grow enough food, build enough homes, make enough clothes (what from?) for billions of people.

with the technology of the machines to help them out?
DOUBTFUL.
-besides whats wrong with letting them live in the matrix until 1 city is made, and let people live there until a specific population is reached. and then make the next and so on.

theres NOTHING wrong with that.
because EVERYONE gets what they want. BOTH MAN & MACHINE>
but GOD forbid that happens.
people might actually like the 3rd film.
instead of HATING it.
(proof is in the pudding) it LOST TONS of money (costed a little and lost TONS)
where the first 2 GAINED money. (tons)

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In any case, the existance of the matrix is inevitable for the time beeing, if the masses plugged into it are to survive.

the existance of the matrix is inevitable?
NO.
The matrix is defined by morpheus as a "PRISON for your mind"
if it was anything different from a "prison" it SHOULD be called something else.
and not only that if people knew it was "fake" then the MAJORITY would want to be free, (people would be naturally curious)-just look at the forbidden fruit.(people want want they cant have)

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Not to mention the psychological problems that people would suffer from, when being unplugged forcefully. Remember, 99% accept their virtual life, as Morpheus says: “…many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it”.

99% accept the ILLUSION they accept it as being REALITY. that doesnt mean that they CHOOSE it over reality.
meaning that if they knew the difference they would choose reality.
they just THINK its real when in fact it is NOT.
"helplessly dependant"
and morpheus wasnt talking about the 99% he was just talking about the people who were "potental agents" and people who work "with them"
and NOT the people who dont know what the hell is going on (which is the MAJORITY)

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Would that be freedom? To rob them of their nice little virtual reality, they have chosen to accept, and force them to live in a dark and cold real world, as seen in the movies.

freedom is the ability to CHOOSE.
to ROB someone of a choice is CONTROl and thats not right.

personally i would choose the REAL word (living with machines and cool stuff like that)
in the MATRIX you dont have flying cars and machines to work with.
(their stuck in the "peak of your civilization")

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Who has the right to choose?

the PEOPLE THEMSELVES DO.
so DONT give them the option?
thats CRAP.
you cant have a choice if you dont KNOW your options.
to take away options is HOW you control someone.
if i walk into a store and say "give me your money or ill kill you"

is THAT controling them?
do they STILL have a choice?
YES.
because control is an ILLUSION.
CHOICE is not. (choice exits no matter how small of one)
FREE AGENCY is NOT.
to LIMIT that is WRONG.

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As it is now, those people that want to be freed, will be freed.

again, your wrong because theres NO reason for them to "keep their word"
and they have all the cards.
and their word is all the humans can "hold them too" because if they wanted they could WIPE the humans out.
(if we wanted we could smash them to bits)-your right thats control isnt it.

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If man and machine can manage to cooperate in unscorching the sky, the Matrix might one day become obsolete, giving man and machine a new life and the chance the free the Matrix humans gradually and gently

uh. DUH?
isnt that what I was saying from the BEGINNING?
wait, you DONT want that do you?
thats so HOLLYWOOD.
thats so TYPICAL (according to you)

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That is most likely what will happen post Revolutions,… if mankind can get that far without starting another war. You know,… not being able to make compromises…well….increases the danger of another war dramatically….

war is INEVITABLE but since thats so then it should be for an entirely different reason and NOT between man and machine or ANYTHING related to the MATRIX.

its like the south fighting the NORTH again. its like going into ANOTHER civil war.
what the hell would the point be, why would all of those people die to stop?
to CONTINUE slavery?
to continue to hate men of color?
NO.
the war ended, and slavery is NO MORE.
and nothing RELATED to "african americans" or them hating us has started another war.
its OVER.
and so should the matrix.
but its not.

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Oracle: I have your word? Architect: What do you think I am? Human? I think, that says it all.

again, either he was lying or telling the truth.
either way its sucks.

because he was lying about neo choosing the door ending in "the end of your species"

and his "WORD" means nothing.

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And if that doesn’t help,… take some history books or just a newspaper, and read about mankind’s potential to live in peace…

there will NEVER be peace.
even when we all DIE.
even RELIGIOUS beliefs say so.
(there will be other EARTHS and other people starting wars)

you CANNOT have good without EVIL.

how can we know HOT without COLD.
how can we know PLEASURE without PAIN.

-there MUST be opposition in ALL things- (god)

Cold doesn't exsist only heat. I don't remember the exact temp, but I think it works a lot like this.

There's a heat measurement system called kelvan, where the lowest possible temprature is 0. That is no heat, a temprature that only exsists in theory because there is nothing that can exsist without having any energy. Anyway to my point.

You're views of the matrix are too litteralist. Not in the script form, but that you think everything you see's meaning is suppose to have face value. You said machines can't lie, yet the oricle never told the truth at any moment, none of them. Including the "He is your opposite, you're negative." She was just telling Neo what he needed to hear. It became very obvious by the end, that Neo wasn't such a good guy, and smith was much stronger then him. Meaning smtih was not more of an anti-balance, but a more powerfull one also. If you get my drift.

Your idea of "peace cannot exsist" and my "peace can" are more of belief then factual. Theoreticly eather can. The idea of war is obsurd, and if enough people realised it's obsurdity, then it's exsistance would go away.

The Animatrix showed the machines understood concepts like freedom, mixed with their pact with Neo. If the machines don't hold to this, it could cause uproar within the machines themselves.

Infact, it should be noted that up to that point, to the machines knowledge, all the rebells wanted to do was kill the machines (the same things the humans had wanted before), this was the first time they had heard about a want for only free exsistance, a goal the machines can relate to.

I know there are more points to me made, I'll have to make them later.

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you CANT separate neos "acceptance" and the choice of the "door" choosing the door IS the acceptance of the system

Well,… when Neo chose he left door in the architect room, he didn’t choose the options connected with this door by the architect.
The architect couldn’t see beyond the obvious effect of the left door. But Neo’s love for Trininty gave him the hope (Architect: “Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness). He chose to break free from the architect’s options and go his own way -> breaking the cycle and saving mankind.

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everything the archetect said actually happend. and if it didnt? then he was lying.

Everything the architect said was about to happen, but Neo could intervene. That is something the architect couldn’t forsee.

Neo: The Architect told me that if I didn't return to the Source, Zion would be destroyed by midnight tonight.
Oracle: *rolls eyes* Please... You and I may not be able to see beyond our own choices, but that man can't see past any choices.
Neo: Why not?
Oracle: He doesn't understand them - he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose: to balance an equation.

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this denotes a TOTALLY selfless act. which if you understand psychology DOESNT EXIST.

So Jesus let himself be crucified for his own benefit?...

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there is ALWAYS a "reason" connected to everything. its not just "BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO" he did the right thing because of his PROGRAM that says he is "connected to the survival of his speceis"

“When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.”
This is from the Neodämmerung lyrics, I suggest that you read the whole thing.

I even agree with you that - at that point - Neo hasn't yet fully reached the path supreme,... that there is a reason for Neo’s choice to go on. The reason is peace.
But HOW to get there, at that moment is a choice purely his. Nobody, no person, no program, no vision influence him in this choice.

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if he DIDNT have this he wouldnt have made the choice. (according to the W bros)

Would you be so kind as to direct me to the source of this information?

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theres no proof of this. NONE. instead the evidence points the other way. (machines being in control and zion being destoryed and the war continuing)

What evidence?

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Zion was, and always WILL BE a part of the prophecy, it HAS to be. (the 1% is needed for balance-i.e. the oracle and "the one") if there is no more ZION then where would the next NEO goto? nowhere.

the 1% were not needed for balance. They were “a burden assiduously avoided” but “ not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control.”
The control was the prophecy. Since Neo solved the choice problem for the Matrix and made peace, this burden no longer exists and the prophecy is no longer needed.
Most likely another anomaly will appear one day, but this will be a different matter that will need a different solution.

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everything is bound to a purpose. and if you dont think so then your wrong. "if we dont have a purpose we wouldnt exist"

Rama Kandra: “I love my daughter very much. I find her to be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But where we are from, that is not enough. Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted. I went to the Frenchman to save my daughter...”

Sati was created for no purpose, only out of love. She was useless to the system, so it was about to delete her.

Were you made for a purpose? What was the job within our system, that your parents had in mind, when making you?

Beeing created for a purpose is not the same as searching for a purpose.

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without the matrix? what about the poor machines? or POOR PROGAMS? are you just gonna shut the matrix down? what about poor SATI? or POOR ORACLE? they NEED the matrix to exist.

Humans die one day, so must programs, to make evolution possible.
And, they are originally programs from the machine world; so… how could they exist, before they entered the Matrix?

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oh, so they didnt LEARN from the other 5? those were meaningless?

What made the other 5 return to the source? Causality! They did obey to the system and choose the system’s choice. With their code, the system could not integrate free human choice into the source. That’s why the anomaly popped up again after their reload.
The system did learn from them, from their skills. That’s why every new One most likely was more powerful than his predecessor.
But unlike Neo, they did not make it to the path supreme.

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why would there be a MATRIX ONLINE if NEO had control of the "machine god" or the "source" if that was your "point" which is unbelieveable nonsense.

Again, I suggest that you read the Neodämmerung lyrics. Being the essence of something has nothing to do with controlling it.

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yeah boy all of those people who are being controlled by agent smith. WOW i want THAT kind of freedom. PLEASE SATAN TAKE MY BODY SO I MAY BE "FREE"

Do I have to understand this?

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yeah, this is the "process" and not the "MEANS" of his distruction. neo's dissemination is the "only" means of eliminating the "smiths" hes the only 1 man who can destroy smith, and his essence is the only one that can "push away" his power to absorb. if your THEORY was true then they could get ANYONE "any stupid agent or HUMAN" to do the same stupid thing. which is rediculous.

I agree with you that the source needed Neo to delete Smith (that’s what I meant by “not touching on the phylosophy here”), but this process is independent from the dissemination of Neo’s code throughout the source. It happens before the dissemination.

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yes thats TRUE, but whos side are the MEN who are fighting for the MATRIX? oh yeah their on the side of FREEDOM and the side of ZION? thats CRAP. they are on the side of MACHINE. who cares if they are "human" they are fighting for the machines in the same way the security guards were in the FIRST matrix movie were.

They are fighting for a peaceful co-existence of man and machine.

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the one where they capture the machine and the machine falls in "love" with its captors. (where they are trying to put the machine in a 'created' matrix to give the machine the choice to help them or not)

That is a man-made, manipulated love; whereas the love between Rama Kandra, his wife and Sati is machine evolution.

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so they will NEVER have the technology to clear it?

re-read my above post! I clearly stated that man and machine will have to cooperate to gain the technology; this takes time and until they get there, the Matrix has to exist to give billions of people a place to live.

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and NEO being "all powerful" couldnt do it?

Did you understand Neo’s powers at all?
Neo’s powers are restricted to everything machine. He has powers inside the Matrix, and he has a connection to the source, that enables him to communicate with machines in the real world.
Did he see Trinity when being blinded? No!
Could he resurrect her in the real world? No
She is not a machine!.... Is the scorched sky a machine?...

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again, ill say it AGAIN. with ENOUGH technology and the mahines working "together" god forbid a "happy" ending. -boy i sure HATE happy endings -they are so "typical"- thats CRAP.

re-read my above post and see above

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every ending is when "the good guys win" i want the BAD GUYS to win for once. *cause THAT would be MORE original*

So,… whom exactly would you want to win in Revolutions?

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see how STUPID that sounds? EXACTLY. so is a COMPROMISE. when GOOD compromises with EVIL, its EVIL

Again, what – in your opinion – is GOOD and what is EVIL in the trilogy?

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besides whats wrong with letting them live in the matrix until 1 city is made, and let people live there until a specific population is reached. and then make the next and so on. theres NOTHING wrong with that. because EVERYONE gets what they want. BOTH MAN & MACHINE> but GOD forbid that happens.

Did you read my above post at all?... As I stated in this post, that’s exactly my understanding of the ending! MY understanding, since I am able to see the potential in the peace Neo made.

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besides whats wrong with letting them live in the matrix until 1 city is made

didn’t you state several times, that it is NOT inevitable that the Matrix exist until the Real world can support billions of people?

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the existance of the matrix is inevitable? NO.

Ha!... here it is again!

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and morpheus wasnt talking about the 99% he was just talking about the people who were "potental agents" and people who work "with them" and NOT the people who dont know what the hell is going on (which is the MAJORITY)

Time to watch the Matrix again, isn’t it.

Neo: “What are they?”
Morpheus: “Sentient programs. They can move in and out of any software still hard wired to their system. That means that anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an agent.”

The agents can jump into any human hardwired to the Matrix. Those humans aren't even aware of it. There is not such a thing as “potential agents” and “people who work with them”.

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freedom is the ability to CHOOSE. to ROB someone of a choice is CONTROl and thats not right.

So if you choose for the people - who have chosen to accept the illusion - to rob them of this very illusion, to destroy their virtual life,…what’s that?
Actually you’ve answered this already:

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because control is an ILLUSION. CHOICE is not. (choice exits no matter how small of one)

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again, your wrong because theres NO reason for them to "keep their word" and they have all the cards. and their word is all the humans can "hold them too" because if they wanted they could WIPE the humans out. (if we wanted we could smash them to bits)-your right thats control isnt it.

Oracle: I have your word?
Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

I stick to my opinion that his says it all.

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uh. DUH? isnt that what I was saying from the BEGINNING? wait, you DONT want that do you? thats so HOLLYWOOD. thats so TYPICAL (according to you)

It is Hollywood to see it in the movies.
It is not Hollywood to make it an option by the way the movie ends. It is an option as well as mankind not accepting the peace and starting another war.
It’s up to every single person in the audience to decide for himself, how it will go on.

That’s not Hollywood, but provoking people to think and decide for themselves.

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its like the south fighting the NORTH again. its like going into ANOTHER civil war. what the hell would the point be, why would all of those people die to stop? to CONTINUE slavery? to continue to hate men of color? NO. the war ended, and slavery is NO MORE. and nothing RELATED to "african americans" or them hating us has started another war. its OVER. and so should the matrix. but its not.

->

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besides whats wrong with letting them live in the matrix until 1 city is made, and let people live there until a specific population is reached?

?

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how can we know HOT without COLD.

You said this to me, and I gave the same answer.

Frankly, your post is insulting to me. Here is a hint: an open question starts like this: "Do you think that Neo changed anything?" or "Did Neo change anything?". Why is it that you can be so logical sometimes, and then do this.

well to me its FACT that he didnt do anything.

could i be wrong?
sure.
but i dont think so.

i said it that way so that more people would be "pulled in"
from such a "blunt" statement.
thats why i did it.

people are going to pay attention to this more than an open ended question.
(the same way people are going to respond more to insults)
- i believe people are going to want to "prove me wrong" rather than just posting their "thoughts"

i want to be "proved wrong" because i already know the "theories"
and "the other side"
how?
because i WANT to beleive "the other side" but cant because the evidence screams the other way.

im sorry if you were offended by this as it wasnt meant for that.
it was meant for me.

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it was meant for me.

So what did you gain from this thread?


To be honest,.. I have a feeling that you need to watch the trilogy a few more times.
While, apart from the directors, nobody can for sure know the "truth" about the movies, there are certain facts you can't deny.

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well to me its FACT that he didnt do anything.

One fact is certainly that he did do a lot.
If you like the outcome,...well... that is another question. But....he definitely changed a lot.

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because i WANT to beleive "the other side" but cant because the evidence screams the other way.

No evidence that I can think of.

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im sorry if you were offended by this as it wasnt meant for that.

We all have the right to say our opinion, as long as this happens in a polite way. Why should anybody be offended by your posts?

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Well,… when Neo chose he left door in the architect room, he didn’t choose the options connected with this door by the architect. The architect couldn’t see beyond the obvious effect of the left door. But Neo’s love for Trininty gave him the hope (Architect: “Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness).

how can machines use HOPE as a weapon against mankind?
to USE It as a motivation to goto 1 door over the other.
(greatest weakness)
how can HOPE be a weakness?
most people are going to say that HOPE is a good thing or a STRENGTH.
only when used as a negative motivation does it BECOME a weakness.
and it did.

frankly EVERYTHING that the archetect said from BOTH doors happend.
so how can that be NOT choosing the options when everything he said for BOTH doors happend?
you cant.

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He chose to break free from the architect’s options.

did you watch the same movie?
the archetects "options" that he told neo was to choose 1 door or the other. to do other than that would be something like smashing his face.
or creating his own door.
(that would have been cooler and would have made it more clear)

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Everything the architect said was about to happen, but Neo could intervene. That is something the architect couldn’t forsee.

everything that the architect was about to happen and DID happen.

neo COULD intervene and yeah the archectect wouldnt be able to see that but he saw EVERYTHING.
even down to his "dissemination" (the last scene in revolutions)

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Oracle: He doesn't understand them - he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose: to balance an equation.

exactly.
in the same way tons of people predicted neos death (waiting in line for the 3rd matrix movie*first showing*)

how did they know that?
can they see past any choice?
are they the oracle? or NEO?
NO.
in the same way prophecies are written on paper.
how could MORPHEUS know that the ONE would come?
because of the prophecy that the oracle told him.

prophecies only exist because its all happend before.
thats WHY and HOW they work.

you dont have to be an ORACLE to see the obvious future.
in the same way that scientists know that someday we will ALL die.
-boy they must be psychics-

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So Jesus let himself be crucified for his own benefit?...

YES.
i said TOTALLY selfless act.
there are selfless acts.

would jesus be the "CHRIST" if he didnt?
NO.
he did it so that he would "remain" christ.
in the same way that GOD does "good" instead of "evil"
cause otherwise he would cease to be "god"

that doesnt mean their evil or completely selfish.

cause theirs NOTHING wrong with being selfish.
it ONLY matters when your selfish at the COST of others.

in the same way that NOTHING is evil except RESULTS of an action.
like KILLING isnt evil.
its only evil when it turns into MURDER.
its about INTENT.
and so is SELFISHNESS.

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When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.” This is from the Neodämmerung lyrics, I suggest that you read the whole thing

no thanks. if you want a point, then give me one. or just give me this summary.

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I even agree with you that - at that point - Neo hasn't yet fully reached the path supreme,... that there is a reason for Neo’s choice to go on. The reason is peace. But HOW to get there, at that moment is a choice purely his. Nobody, no person, no program, no vision influence him in this choice.

thats asssuming that neo is "still alive"
everything points that hes "dead"

and thats assuming that the movie "the matrix" is void of "the devil" or "temptation" and the merivingian clearly symbolizes this "figurehead"

the devil has GREAT influence over EVERYONE.
even CHRIST himself was tempted.

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Would you be so kind as to direct me to the source of this information?

im not going to go there (there are websites)
ill just say this to "narrow your search" (look at one of the members of the council)
they have been quoted DIRECTLY in saying that they believe in the "same things" as this man does.
study this man and you know them.

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What evidence?

the evidence like for 1 example?
zions defences being WIPED OUT.
being crowded into a corner with those guns that seem to take FOREVER to kill 1 squid.
thats just 1.

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the 1% were not needed for balance. They were “a burden assiduously avoided” but “ not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control

thats the ARCHETECTS view of them.

they are "controled" by the ORACLE.
who would the oracle TALK TO if not the 1%
the 1% is needed to create zion and needed to create NEO and NEO is needed for BALANCE.

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The control was the prophecy. Since Neo solved the choice problem for the Matrix and made peace, this burden no longer exists and the prophecy is no longer needed. Most likely another anomaly will appear one day, but this will be a different matter that will need a different solution.

the prophecy just basically says that another "the one" will "return" and hail the destruction of the matrix.
how will the NEXT people or NEO know what to do without saying the EXACT thing as before?

it will be EXACTLY the same.

the soultion will be to "destroy the matrix"
the phophecy is too SIMPLISTIC to change anything in it.

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Rama Kandra: “I love my daughter very much. I find her to be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But where we are from, that is not enough. Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted. I went to the Frenchman to save my daughter...”

who has the power to DELETE THEM.
its the FRENCHMEN
if he has the power to "SAVE THEM"
then you must assume he has the power to "delete" them as well.

thats HIS purpose.

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Sati was created for no purpose, only out of love. She was useless to the system, so it was about to delete her.

if a criminal walked into my house and was a "brain dead moron" and attempted to kill me because he didnt know that i had a purpose.
would that mean that i DIDNT?

NO.
The merovingian was WRONG. he didnt KNOW her purpose as much as he didnt KNOW the purpose of the "keymaker"
if he knew his PURPOSE he would have taken "more drastic measures" to protect him.
even the AGENTS didnt know his "purpose"

the machine god did and the ARCHETECT did, and the ORACLE did and so did the people of ZION and that pretty much covers it.

they all know because they MUST know.
the merovingian doesnt KNOW the keymakers purpose because his knowledge of it isnt NEEDED.

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Were you made for a purpose? What was the job within our system, that your parents had in mind, when making you?

Yes.
to have a FAMILY.
to PROCREATE.
so that my mother would be a "mother"
and my father would be a "father"
that was their 'Purpose' or "reason" for having me.


why did adam and eve have sex?
to propegate the species.

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Beeing created for a purpose is not the same as searching for a purpose

your right. but their both REASONS. (reason why were here)

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Humans die one day, so must programs, to make evolution possible. And, they are originally programs from the machine world; so… how could they exist, before they entered the Matrix?

evolution is not possible in DEATH.
what if the whole world EXPLODES INTO DUST?
what if EXISTANCE itself gets ENDED?
how is the human race going to EVOLVE THEN?

thats what would happen if you turned off the matrix.
it is the WAY that all programs exist.

how can you use WINDOWS if your computer is shot with a nucluear bomb?
good luck calling microsoft to fix your computer after that.

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What made the other 5 return to the source? Causality! They did obey to the system and choose the system’s choice. With their code, the system could not integrate free human choice into the source. That’s why the anomaly popped up again after their reload.

the w brothers are big fans of "causality"
they wholly believe in it.

you CAN integrate free human choice when you CONTROL it.

causality doesnt say that choice doesnt EXIST, rather its an illusion.
meaning that we can CONTROL choice.
in the same way the MATRIX controls choice.
in the same way that BOTH doors lead to the "same result"

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The system did learn from them, from their skills. That’s why every new One most likely was more powerful than his predecessor

most likely?
theres no proof of that.
and even if he was "powerful" its simply an "upgrade" and "not beyond a measure of control"

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But unlike Neo, they did not make it to the path supreme.

thats debatable
morpheus said the other NEO was able to "change the matrix as he saw fit."
how more SUPREME can you get than that?
you cant.
(not in the matrix world)

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Again, I suggest that you read the Neodämmerung lyrics. Being the essence of something has nothing to do with controlling it.

ok, then AGIAN if THATS the case then NEO being the essense means NOTHING.
if hes not controlling it then hes "out of control"
by definition.

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Do I have to understand this?

you should.
you said that the people of the matrix were FREE before neo "freed them"
which is garbage.

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but this process is independent from the dissemination of Neo’s code throughout the source. It happens before the dissemination.

the source is connected to the MATRIX.
i speaking of the disemination of NEO in the MATRIX.
and it HAD to "START" there.
after all it BEGAN when smith was overtaking him.
it BEGAN and ENDED there.
(in the matrix)
he was just "plugged in" and thats all.
dissemination was the "white explosion and scattering of the "white explosion"

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They are fighting for a peaceful co-existence of man and machine

if that was true then SO ARE THE MACHINES.
and their not.

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That is a man-made, manipulated love; whereas the love between Rama Kandra, his wife and Sati is machine evolution.

no its not. you might want to watch it again.
they wanted the machine to "choose for itself" and everything they put in there was its own CHOICE.
they didnt FORCE it to love her.
on the contrary, she was SHOCKED when she found out at the end that the machine "loved" her.

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re-read my above post! I clearly stated that man and machine will have to cooperate to gain the technology; this takes time and until they get there, the Matrix has to exist to give billions of people a place to live.

i know you did, the point is that the movie should have ENDED in this way.
but it didnt.

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Did you understand Neo’s powers at all?

i understand them COMPLETELY.
i just didnt like it.
he SHOULD have had the same powers in the real world.
it SHOULD have been because he had "faith" or believed hard enough.
it would have been BETTER that way.
like i said 'BLUE SKY ON EARTH'
and if it was THIS way it would be the ONLY way to explain how he would be able to do this.

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So,… whom exactly would you want to win in Revolutions?

the machines should pay for their crimes and the humans should find out the machines involved in the creation of the matrix (the ones that have their "own" minds) because keeping the people who werent involved in the acts of genocide against the machines dont deserve to be in the "prision"
while the other men who were involved had every right to be "locked up"

the machines responsible for the matrix continuance should be put to justice. (not killed because they didnt kill themselves their not guilty of murder)
they should pay for their crimes in some way. (like being forced to work without pay until their sentence is up. and their product should be something that helps mankind and machine to live in "reality"

after that i want a co-existance between man and machine.
i DONT want a STUPID comrpomise where mankind is sitll FORCED in prison.
thats stupid.
the matrix is EVIL cause its FORCES people to live in prison who are not responsible for the crimes against the machines.
after all its been at least 100 years since the animatrix.

not many people live after 100 years.

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Did you read my above post at all?... As I stated in this post, that’s exactly my understanding of the ending! MY understanding, since I am able to see the potential in the peace Neo made.

NO its not.
your seeing an ending that you WANT to see.
and not what the movie SHOWED.
your seeing the "beleived potential"
and not what really happend.
or what WILL happen.
(even IF it will) or IF your right)

they should SHOW that happening *but they didnt*

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didn’t you state several times, that it is NOT inevitable that the Matrix exist until the Real world can support billions of people?

yes i did.
because i define the matrix (like ive said before) in the same way MORPHEUS defined the matrix as a PRISON for your mind.
if people are FREE its no longer a matrix (according to HIS definition and MINE as well)
but you still need a PROGRAM to support human lives.
that program would no longer be a prison and no longer be called "the matrix"

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The agents can jump into any human hardwired to the Matrix. Those humans aren't even aware of it. There is not such a thing as “potential agents” and “people who work with them”.

you quote morpheus when he says the words "is potentially an agent.”
and then you say theres NO such thing?
whatever.
i was talking about what he said.
i was referring to the people who are not "unplugged" which IS the people who are the 1%

Quote:

Those humans aren't even aware of it

i know that the humans are not part of that 1% i was just saying WHEN and what he was talking about.
and it doesnt change the fact that they are still "working with them"
they certainly arent working "AGAINST" them.

Quote:

Oracle: I have your word? Architect: What do you think I am? Human? I stick to my opinion that his says it all

that DOESNT say it all.
thats AVIODING the question.
its being VAUGE.

it says NOTHING that he wont lie.
it just says hes a machine.
and it DOENST say that machines dont or cant lie.

it just says "im not human"
big deal
did the machines show FEAR or anger?
did you know that the #1 reason that people lie is BECAUSE of FEAR?
if they have fear what makes you think that they cant LIE.
ESPECIALLY if it ended the way that you WANT. (me too but its not happening)
then he is LIEING.
either hes lieing or telling the truth.
and if hes telling the truth that means its a revolution
and if hes lieing that means that neo changed something.
and if hes lieing that ALSO means that machines lie and their credibility means nothing.
and that statment doesnt say ANYTHING.
it means NOTHING.
It is Hollywood to see it in the movies.

Quote:

It is not Hollywood to make it an option by the way the movie ends. It is an option as well as mankind not accepting the peace and starting another war. It’s up to every single person in the audience to decide for himself, how it will go on. That’s not Hollywood, but provoking people to think and decide for themselves

oh your going the THOUGHT route saying that the matrix is original because it provokes thought?
frankly WATCHING PAINT DRY and EARNIST GOEST TO CAMP provokes thought.
im thinking "god this sucks!"
thinking ANY movie is allowing me to "think for myslef"
that doesnt make ALL movies great.

if you LOVE uncertainty then walk out of EVERY movie "just before it ends" wait for the final battle and walk out.
you know the plot and EVERYTHING else just not who wins.

AWESOME i can make up my own ending in my mind.
COOL!
what a load of crap.


and not only that its COMPLETLY hollywood to leave the ending open its happend in a crapload of movies.
thats not origional either.
1 example?
TOTAL RECALL.
frankly that was BETTER cause at least it was a "blue sky on mars"
it wasnt oh lets let the bad guys win and have their money as long as they let the people have their air.

the people gained their freedom (this was OBVIOUS) and the bad guys got their justice.
but you STILL didnt know if it was all a dream.

still open ended, still thought provoking and STILL a happy ending. and STILL everything clearly explained.
(you knew that the hero was still alive without a DOUBT)

a happy ending DOESNT consist of the HERO (might be dead)
the love of his life DIEING.
and the good guys getting their asses kicked.
and the bad guys winning the war.

the machines clearly won the battle, they just "allowed" the humans to live because of what neo did.
how stupid is that?
WAYYY stupid.

its like in die hard, would it be a great movie if the villian kicked his ass and turned himself in?
NO.
you want brucy to kick his butt and PUT him in prison.
and thats what made it good.
the VILLAIN got his justice.
the machines did NOT.

would it be any better if he said "oh you have my WORD that ill turn myself in. while brucey was on the ground with broken arms and legs?
and the villain walks in the "direction" of the prison?

what kind of STUPID ending would THAT Be?
a moronic one.
thats what.

and if the machines are "endowed with the same spirit of man"
then if its the SAME then they CAN lie.

if they CANT lie then that means that there NOT the same now doesnt it?
YES.

(just ANOTHER peace of evidence of the -probability of a machine lie-

Raksasha69,

I'm new to this forum and I haven't read your posts in the other threads....
So.. I'm no longer sure if you really mean what you are writing or if you make fun of me! ....Hm....So many posts,... so many interesting threads on this board that should make things clear....

Can any of the experienced posters help me out here?

Anyway.... you certainly are a challenge for me (it is meant for me...).
I'll get back to you later, most likely tomorrow, when I have some time.



<- hehe,... I like that!

Well, Raksasha69 seems to have made some intelligent posts in other threads. However, he is completely wrong in this one. Neo didn't change anything? Did you sleep through Reloaded and Revolutions? I want to try to make this short and simple so I can input my thoughts in a more valid argument...

Other Ones - Had a love for all mankind, no specific love
- Walked through the door to the Source from the Architect room which leads to: Zion being COMPLETELY destroyed and every single person living there KILLED. The One would pick 23 people from the Matrix to rebuild Zion and they would also think that they are the first freed people and spread the word of the return of the one (just like Morpheus' speech in M1)
- After picking the individuals to rebuild Zion, the code he carries is reinserted and the Matrix is reloaded. NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT PREVIOUS ONES. NEO WAS THE FIRST TO BE ABLE TO TELL OTHERS ABOUT THIS!

Neo - Specific love, chose the door back to the Matrix, therefore seperating his path from ALL THE OTHERS.
- Once back in the real world, able to tell others the truth that no one know (5 previous Ones, false prophecy, etc.)
- The VERY end of Reloaded and all of Revolutions show the path of Neo that no other One would ever have taken.
- Zion about to be destroyed and EVERYONE killed leading to the extinction of the human race - BUT - Neo makes a deal with D.E.M. and ENDS THE WAR, saving all the survivors in Zion!

NOW: Every survivor will learn of the Ones path and the method of control and everything that was explained to us throughout the trilogy. We don't know what's going to happen, but we know humans or more free, we can assume that more minds will be freed, and we could think there will be another war, but humans will be much stronger.

IF Neo would've taken the normal path, Zion is destroyed and everyone killed, the people chosen spread the word, thinking that they are the first freed humans, build Zion and THE CYCLE STARTS ALL OVER.

It is not at all hard to understand that Neo changed a lot. I hope this helped you understand and realize that 95% of what you said was false.

Although I never do this, this thread has caused me to read three posts, skip to the end, reply and hope that it augments some other post by someone who has already come to their senses.

Once again, AzarN's quick summary:

- Everything the Architect tells Neo is his genuine belief. The Architect operates on extreme logic and cannot truly comprehend how emotion and human frailty would ultimately affect the war.

- Although the Architect tells Neo that taking the door back to the Matrix would end his species (AND he was aware that Neo would take this door, since The Architect comments on the nature of emotion), The Architect cannot possible comprehend that Neo would sacrifice himself for the sake of peace. Since the Architect assumes that Neo returning to the Matrix will lead to the death of humanity, he is NOT lying.

- Neo was the only one to take this door back to the matrix, for the sake of Trinity. All other Ones have returned to the source, addmitting that the preservation of humanity (even whilst enslaved) is better than extinction. It is Neo's love that compells him to return (and ultimately, this is NOT logical).

- Neo comes into contact with Sati, understands that humans and machines must have peace (yada yada yada) and sacrifices himself for the sake of peace.

Quote:

Other Ones - Had a love for all mankind, no specific love

that says practically nothing EXCEPT that he was an "individual"
as EACH of us are.
that doesnt prove that he wasnt controlled.

Quote:

Zion being COMPLETELY destroyed and every single person living there KILLED. The One would pick 23 people from the Matrix to rebuild Zion and they would also think that they are the first freed people and spread the word of the return of the one (just like Morpheus' speech in M1)

archect wasnt referring to that he said that in reffering to the reason "why he was there"
and "why he was there." he said was the MOST irrelevent.
how can the destruction of zion be IRRELVENT?
because it doesnt matter.
picking 23 people to "rebuild" zion is an after effect.

and there was a crapload of MORE survivors than just 23

and if he picked THAT door then your saying that he was LYING.
and if thats the case then we cant trust him to "keep his word"

Quote:

After picking the individuals to rebuild Zion, the code he carries is reinserted and the Matrix is reloaded

Quote:

NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT PREVIOUS ONES.

really, what about the oracle, what about morpheus.

and then most IMPORTANTLY what about the MEROVINGIAN.
and why the hell would NEO tell HIM about his coming.
he wouldnt tell his enemys.
thats stupid for him to do that.

Quote:

Neo - Specific love, chose the door back to the Matrix, therefore seperating his path from ALL THE OTHERS.

so an simple EMOTION (meaning reason why he chose a door) separated his path from the others?
it MAGICALLY made the door DIFFERENT than what was origionally intended?
thats MAKE BELIEVE and your "grasping at illogical straws"

Quote:

Once back in the real world, able to tell others the truth that no one know (5 previous Ones, false prophecy, etc.)

i dont know what your saying here, it SOUNDS like a "revolution" to me.
meaniing he didnt change a thing.
cause your speaking in "past tence"

Quote:

The VERY end of Reloaded and all of Revolutions show the path of Neo that no other One would ever have taken.

you dont know that.

the things like saying "the prophecy was a lie" and stuff like that just led to his decision to end it like the others.

and if you going to say such a thing back it up with evidence.

Quote:

Zion about to be destroyed and EVERYONE killed leading to the extinction of the human race

again, thats WHY he was there, (thus the question being IRRELEVENT)

Quote:

Every survivor will learn of the Ones path and the method of control and everything that was explained to us throughout the trilogy. We don't know what's going to happen, but we know humans or more free, we can assume that more minds will be freed, and we could think there will be another war, but humans will be much stronger.

i can tell you what EXACTLY will happen and you can QUOTE ME.

in the matrix online this is what will happen:

there will be a COMPROMISE to the war (because the w-brothers dont want either side to "lose")
and the compromise will be that the people who want to stay in will "stay" and the people who want freedom "will live in reality"

gee doesnt that sound like 99-1 again?
doesnt that sound like another MATRIX movie series?
YES.

thats IF they decide to give an ENDING at ALL. if they decide to give an ending then THATS how it will end.
otherwise their OTHER option will be to NOT end it at ALL.
meaning TONS of money for them. (monthly fees)
and then that means WHAT?
neo died for ENDLESS WAR?
no peace EVER?
whoah what a WASTE.

Quote:

IF Neo would've taken the normal path, Zion is destroyed and everyone killed, the people chosen spread the word, thinking that they are the first freed humans, build Zion and THE CYCLE STARTS ALL OVER.

he DIDNT pick the door that said "to the source and the SALVATION of zion"
which is the choosing of the 23. and YES it would have started all over.
but so did the OTHER door.

no he picked the door that said this.
the door to YOUR LEFT leads to HER and the "end of your species"

so he was LYING THEN?
either he was lying or he WASNT.

and if he was telling the truth then its a REVOLUTION.
and if he was lieing then NEO changed something.
and if he CHANGED something then its a REVOLUTION.
why?
because there is NO reason for the machines to "tell the truth"
becasue thats ALL that mankind has to go off of.

their only link to their freedom is off the lips of a man who LIES.
the word of a LIER.
which means NOTHING.

Quote:

It is not at all hard to understand that Neo changed a lot. I hope this helped you understand and realize that 95% of what you said was false

you might want to rethink that 95% thought.

dont get me wrong i though NEO was the COOLEST.
and i WANT you to be RIGHT but your NOT.

because i know how the w-brothers think and i know what they believe after doing TONS of study on them.

and they belive in cause and effect, and CAUSALITY. they DONT beleive in free agency.
they believe that free agency is an illusion.
when the TRUTH is you ALWAYS have a choice even when you are being controlled.
like if i was to say "give me the money or ill kill you"
do you still have a choice?
YES.

You COULD choose to die. (or fight back, which the w-brothers are to blind to see)
there is ALWAYS a 3rd option against control.

they want you to believe that choice can be controlled.
like if i was to say that im the robber who was holding that same person up and i said "give me the money or ill kill you" and my whole PLAN was to kill the guy anways and STILL get the money didnt i totally control them?
NO.
again, the other person could fight to get the gun and take it away from me.

but the w-brothers want you to swallow the fact that Neo had no other choice but to comply with the process of "choosing a door" and not the process of complying to a "specific door"
like me saying "give me the money or ill shoot you"

when in actually BOTH doors lead to the same result.

lets look at it THIS way.

the door to his righ led to the source and the salvation of zion.
did he choose the door to his right?
NO.

was there a "salvation of zion?"
YES. (just not in the way that he said, even though the RESULT was the same which is my WHOLE POINT)

did the door to his right (the one he chose) lead to her? and did she die?
YES.
and he said "leads to her and the end of your species"
and the ONLY way he could have been truthful in this is if he was referring to "YOUR" speceies in the meaning of NEOS or the ones.
because he is a diffenrent speceies than that of a normal human. (by many definitions)
either that or he was LYING again.
and i told you about that.

there are ALOT of people that let their personal beliefs influence how they see the ending of the matrix.

where i WANT to believe that Neo changed something (i LOVED the first 2 films)

I KNOW that he did not.
so i am COMPLETLY unbiast.
i just want people to see the TRUTH in the movie based off logic and reason and not what they WANT to see.

if i WANTED i would beleive that NEO can do superhuman things in the real world because he has enough faith and that hes not actually dead, and that right after the last film, he gets up and makes a blue sky on earth and everyone lives happily ever after.

but thats not what happend.
trinity dies, neo gets his ass kicked by EVERYONE, including a BUM off the street, and he goes blind.

not exactly what i want my HERO to go through.
i WANTED neo to use his program deleting ability in the first movie against agent smith, but he MYSTERIOUSLY forgot how to do.

i wanted NEO to kick the crap out of agent smith, but instead agent smith had the upper hand through the WHOLE THING.
and just when you THINK that neo did something you find out that he doesnt even appear winded at all.

while neo could have been faking it to put him into a false sence of security, its still LAME.

because we only know this AFTER the fact, or at least THINK that it MIGHT have been that way.
which is STUPID.
damn that 3rd movie sucked.

Quote:

Everything the Architect tells Neo is his genuine belief. The Architect operates on extreme logic and cannot truly comprehend how emotion and human frailty would ultimately affect the war.

thats not complety founded upon ALL the evidence.
for instance.

this:
he HIMSELF clearly showed the emotion of anger when he says the words "entire human race and "gritts his teeth"

not knowing EMOTION?
whatever.

now let me SHOOT DOWN the "HOW" it will effect the war.

"the releveant issue is if your ready to accept the responsibility for the lives of every human being in this world"

so FEELING responsible for something is not "connected" to the EMOTION of guilt?
i say AGAIN
whatever.

"it is interesting READING your reactions."
is an EMOTION a reaction?
so your telling me he can READ but has crappy comprehension?
like when someone reads a book that just STARES blindly at the pages and goes through the motions?
i dont think the archetect is THAT STUPID.

meant to create a "profound attachement to the rest of your species"
profound attachment is NOT reffering to an EMOTION?
whatever.

and again, if this attachment (emotion) has NOTHING to do with an influence of the final result the why the hell did he even bring it up.

why?
because he KNEW it had an influence on him.

LOVE. she entered the matrix at the cost of her own?
isnt that pretty SELFLESS?
thats a pretty good indicator of at least a PARTIAL understanding of love.
not to meantion that OTHER programs said "love is a WORD and what matters is the CONNECTION"

hmm profound ATTACHMENT and the word CONNECTION.
arent they similar?
YES.
"the chemical precurers that offset of an EMOTION. an EMOTION that will overwhelm logic and reason."
that is already blinding you to the simple and ovious truth. that she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

so what hes saying here is that emotion has nothing to do with his choice in the door?
and YOUR saying that the chooisng of the door is irrelevent?
WHATEVER>

what a deluge of proof.
whoah.

Quote:

The Architect cannot possible comprehend that Neo would sacrifice himself for the sake of peace. Since the Architect assumes that Neo returning to the Matrix will lead to the death of humanity, he is NOT lying.

he can comprehend SELFLESS ACTS an example?
TRINITY.
"at the cost of her own"
that proves you wrong.
Neo did nothing but a "selfless act" which the archetect CLEARLY understands.

and if THATS not enough PROOF then what the hell did the OTHER 5 do?
after all it is said that they died as well.

isnt DIEING for another neo to come or DIEING to have a "salvation of zion" in other words "choosing the OTHER door" isnt that SELFLESS as well?
YES.
(thats ASSUMING that the other 5 even chose the other door, which in actually doesnt matter which one they chose either)

Quote:

Neo was the only one to take this door back to the matrix, for the sake of Trinity. All other Ones have returned to the source, addmitting that the preservation of humanity (even whilst enslaved) is better than extinction. It is Neo's love that compells him to return (and ultimately, this is NOT logical).

While neo MIGHT have been the only 1 who chose the OTHER door "for trinity" that just shows his REASON for doing so and NOT proof that ANY of the other 5 chose the door for OTHER reasons.

1 of the other 5 could have chosen the SAME door out of the emotion of ANGER or SPITE.
which would make sense if the OTHER 5 didnt believe him. "like when he says "bullshit"

Quote:

Neo comes into contact with Sati, understands that humans and machines must have peace (yada yada yada) and sacrifices himself for the sake of peace

yeah just like the other 5

hope i didnt make you look too bad.

Raksasha69,

after scanning over your last posts....honestly... I think this is pointless!

If I had to describe the trilogy in one sentence, I would say:

"from delusion lead me to truth"
(again, Neodämmerung lyrics, as well as Navras)

This is what the trilogy is all about. To take off your blinkers, step beyond your own little world and gain an understanding of the complex correlations and interrelations in our universe.

The events in the Matrix movies are highly symbolic, they are a metaphor.

For example, how do I understand beeing the "spirit of the universe", the "essence" of something?
In the end of Revolutions, Neo's code is beeing downloaded into the source and disseminated. He is now omnipresent in the source; not as a conscious beeing, but his nature, his love, his understanding.... are now there.
I think this is a beautiful metaphor for beeing the spirit of the (Matrix) universe, this helps me (as an atheist) to understand Buddha a lot.

There are millions of individuals, groups, nations... in our world that have to share this planet. Each has his/it's own interests. To find a balance for these interests, to integrate all into one peacuful society that still allows us our individuality,... is the huge task, mankind is struggeling to achieve, but - so far - without success.

The trilogy tries to show us a way to get there.
The Wachowski brothers certainly are no gods! But obviously they have learned a lot from different religions, phylosophies, myths.... They've combined this knowledge to one "truth", that they present in the Trilogy.
With the open end, they make you an offer:
Take this "truth", try to understand it your way and... make of it what you want, but....THINK about it!

Most people cannot deal with a leash that long, they need to be spoonfed everything, they don't want to think for themselves.

Raksasha69, I wouldn't want to value the message of the trilogy for you, everybody can understand it his own way. But... I fear you do not understand it differently,... you don't understand it at all.

Quote:

Quote: This is from the Neodämmerung lyrics, I suggest that you read the whole thing no thanks. if you want a point, then give me one. or just give me this summary.

This attitude won't get you any further.

As I said above, the trilogy involves thoughts and ideas from religions and philosophies, you most likely are not familiar with (or do you know them all?). To understand them, you might need to read more about them.
That's what I did, and it helped me to find my understanding of the trilogy. And, more important, the trilogy made me read and think about things, I hadn't been involved with before.

Quote:

it was meant for me.

In response to this I've asked what you have gained from this thread?
Did you gain anything? Do you WANT to gain anything?


"He who knows both knowledge and action, with action overcomes death and with knowledge reaches immortality.

Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence. Beyond reason is the Spirit in man, and beyond this is the Spirit of the Universe, the evolver of all.

When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.

In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality.

And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more.

From delusion lead me to truth
From darkness lead me to light
From death lead me to immortality."

Quote:

This is what the trilogy is all about. To take off your blinkers, step beyond your own little world and gain an understanding of the complex correlations and interrelations in our universe.

thats what philosophy is all about.
and i study it for a hobby.
and i say so what.

Quote:

For example, how do I understand beeing the "spirit of the universe", the "essence" of something? In the end of Revolutions, Neo's code is beeing downloaded into the source and disseminated. He is now omnipresent in the source; not as a conscious beeing, but his nature, his love, his understanding.... are now there. I think this is a beautiful metaphor for beeing the spirit of the (Matrix) universe, this helps me (as an atheist) to understand Buddha a lot

the definition of omnipresent means "EVERYWHERE"
Omnipresent. Present everywhere at the same time.

to limit someone who is omnipresent to a single "source" eliminates the defintion of EVERYWHERE.
is he outside of the source?
NO.
he is DEAD or limited to the real word "inside his body" (that is if hes still alive)
you shouldnt have used that word, INSTEAD you should have used the word EVERYWHERE.
you misused it.
the same way i could say this "IM Omnipotent in my own body" meaning i have complete power over it.
which would be a limitiation in and of itself.
if you exist EVERYWERE then you exist EVERYWHERE at the same time and not just "some places"
btw (buddahists are NOT athiest)
while they belive in his TEACHINGS (only) they still se him as a "figurehead"
and athism itself is a "relgion"
they have churches and everything.

Quote:

There are millions of individuals, groups, nations... in our world that have to share this planet. Each has his/it's own interests. To find a balance for these interests, to integrate all into one peacuful society that still allows us our individuality,... is the huge task, mankind is struggeling to achieve, but - so far - without success

to find balance?
that sounds like a compromise to me.
a compromise to evil is EVIL.
the reason why we havent had success?
because of mankinds PRIDE.
thats the reason.

the first step in the degredation of a soiciety is "ACCEPTANCE"

you should NOT accept people who do evil acts that we all know "intrisically" to be wrong.

lets go ahead and let the ideas and INTERESTS of nazis back into a UNITED society that way were all INTEGRATED.
yeah that would be a GREAT idea.
all that killing and genocide!
COOL!
(you probably wont understand this cause you dont want to see the obvious truth in front of your face)

Quote:

The Wachowski brothers certainly are no gods! But obviously they have learned a lot from different religions, phylosophies, myths.... They've combined this knowledge to one "truth", that they present in the Trilogy

"truth" is not 1 version of the "truth"
truth is not simply an INTERPRETATION.
because truth is truth is TRUTH.
and TRUTH never changes it is a CONSISTANT.

and ill say its all screwed up and WRONG.
(according to logic and PROOF)

Quote:

With the open end, they make you an offer: Take this "truth", try to understand it your way and... make of it what you want, but....THINK about it

things are ONLY open ended to people who dont KNOW logic and see the future events.
the greatest indicator of future events is past events.

for instance was it an OPEN ENDED thing for the w-brothers?
NO.
they had a clear DEFINED message in the movie, they have all the answers in their own VERSION of what the truth is.

and the message was NOT no message at all.
things are only GREY for people who cant see.

Quote:

Most people cannot deal with a leash that long, they need to be spoonfed everything, they don't want to think for themselves.

oh brother thats rediculous.

so lets make a leash 1 centimeter long so that we have complete control over the dog and make him choke to DEATH.
(that way we know hes not going to run into the street)
AWESOME!

Quote:

Raksasha69, I wouldn't want to value the message of the trilogy for you, everybody can understand it his own way. But... I fear you do not understand it differently,... you don't understand it at all.

your fear is not fear.
its PRIDE. in your own belief in what is the truth.
to say otherwise is not being true to yourself.

and as i have said BEFORE that i WANT to belief that the ending was happy and NOT a revolution but i KNOW differently.
and i have PROVEN it.

and to TRY and push this pshycho babble that is NOT anywhere NEAR the proof is POINTLESS.
stick to the point and the PROOF.

Quote:

As I said above, the trilogy involves thoughts and ideas from religions and philosophies, you most likely are not familiar with (or do you know them all?). To understand them, you might need to read more about them. That's what I did, and it helped me to find my understanding of the trilogy. And, more important, the trilogy made me read and think about things, I hadn't been involved with before.

i can tell you to "go read the bible" are you going to do it?
NO
because you dont believe in it.
does your DISBELIEF MEAN THIS?= does it mean that the bible a COMPLETE book of LIES?
NO.

and even if you did and we were discussing religion it would be more sensible to prove a point to quote scripture RATHER than just saying "go read the bible"
and i thought you would have realized that by my post.
i guess not.

Quote:

He who knows both knowledge and action, with action overcomes death and with knowledge reaches immortality.

so a brilliant man (say a recognized athiest FRUED)-btw your athiest
is IMMORTAL?
(hes dead last time i checked)
and to say that his KNOWLEGE makes him immortal is rediculous.
his ACTIONS may "immortalize" someone in the "metaphoric" sence but not in the LITERAL sence.

so thats not logical at all.

Quote:

Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence. Beyond reason is the Spirit in man, and beyond this is the Spirit of the Universe, the evolver of all.

yes people have said that inside you brian (or mind) is your spirit which is why you die when you get your head cutt off. and you can live with no heartbeat and cannot live with no brainwaves.
the evolver of all?
this is a DIETY? (even NEO could be considered a diety or looked at with theist eyes)
and you dont believe in one.
so thats illogical (for you)

Quote:

When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.

so when your brain stops you die, SO (f-fing what)

Quote:

In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality.

AGAIN thats THIESM
and IRRELEVENT to YOUR beleifs.

Quote:

And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more.

karma is basically saying that a good deed equals a good repsonse or reward.

and even a GOD does things for selfish reasons (he has to to good otherwise he would cease to be "god")

and being selfish by iteslf is not bad.
selfish is ONLY bad when it is used at the COST of others.

The balance of good and evil trancends god and space and existance itself.
as everything began as "intellegence" and then was the CONCEPT (or knowledge of) good and evil, and then it was existance and god himself.
(that is if you believe in fairy tales of god)
and im only saying this because its talking ABOUT theism. (youll probably say that NEO is not a "god" therefore not thiesm, which is so blantantly stupid its laughable)

but ill give you the benifit of the doubt and say that your not that dumb.

"there MUST be opposition in all things"-god-

and religion is not the only one that says that.
i could quote TONS of more references to this but i HOPE you get the idea.

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From delusion lead me to truth

From darkness lead me to light
-being in darkness doesnt AUTOMAICALLY lead you into the light, it is a REQUEST to a deity.
From death lead me to immortality
this is "ASKING" someone to take you from delusion.
so what.

if your trying to prove that only people who are STUPID are really SMART?
and your useing THAT?

you might as well fabricated something of your OWN creation.
cause this says NOTHING towards that.

A wiseman can learn from a fool, but a fool CANT learn from a wiseman.

and as i have said (if you look at my posts)
that i WANTED to be "proven wrong"
in OTHER words i want a "FOOL" to teach me something.
as i KNOW that im right.

could i be wrong?
sure, but its DOUBTFULL.

and i HAVE been wrong before and when i am i ADMIT it.
(unlike most people)-hint hint- (thats for anyone)

if i see enough evidence and it makes logical sence then i will accept it as fact.

btw way to not add any more proof.
yeah GOOD JOB!

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the definition of omnipresent means "EVERYWHERE" Omnipresent. Present everywhere at the same time. to limit someone who is omnipresent to a single "source" eliminates the defintion of EVERYWHERE. is he outside of the source? NO. he is DEAD or limited to the real word "inside his body" (that is if hes still alive) you shouldnt have used that word, INSTEAD you should have used the word EVERYWHERE. you misused it.

I see no problem with something beeing omnipresent within something, filling it with it's essence.

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btw (buddahists are NOT athiest)

Did I say that?... Do you actually READ things, or just scan over them?

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to find balance? that sounds like a compromise to me. a compromise to evil is EVIL. .... the first step in the degredation of a soiciety is "ACCEPTANCE"

Imagine you sitting in a bath tube with another human beeing. You like taking your bath in hot water, the other person prefers cold water.
Is the other person evil? Can you not accept the other person?
Or wouldn't it be best to make a compromise and fill the tube with warm water?
And don't give me the argument "I wouldn't take a bath with this person at all". I've brought the bath tube up as a metaphor for earth. We cannot exit earth. We share this place with people, who have other preferences, opinions... That doesn't automatically make them evil! They are different. And to live together with people who are different, we and they have to make compromises. And we have to accept them as they are. To avoid another misunderstanding,... again:... I'm not talking about criminals, just about people who are different!

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things are ONLY open ended to people who dont KNOW logic and see the future events. the greatest indicator of future events is past events.

Great! The past events in the trilogy were, that mankind screwed up. Humans were repedeatly aggressive against the machines, they did not accept the machine peace offer, they scorched the sky, they were using nuclear bombs, they were trying genocide against the machines!
There is not one moment in the past events that we experience machines breaking their word.
And these past events are proof for you that machines will not keep their word and go on as before Neo?
Oh, come on!

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and the message was NOT no message at all. things are only GREY for people who cant see.

Things are not grey for Nazis!

You are right,... there is just black and white,... good and evil!

And who decides, what evil is?
We all agree that murder is evil! Is killing a murderer for his crime good or evil?

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i can tell you to "go read the bible" are you going to do it? NO because you dont believe in it. does your DISBELIEF MEAN THIS?= does it mean that the bible a COMPLETE book of LIES? NO.

Even so I am an atheist, I can have acceptance and sympathy for the different religions in this world. And I can try to understand something without believing in it.
I don't believe in Nirvana, and still I can understand Neo reaching Nirvana in the end of the trilogy. And I can even like it!

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"He who knows both knowledge and action, with action overcomes death and with knowledge reaches immortality. Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence. Beyond reason is the Spirit in man, and beyond this is the Spirit of the Universe, the evolver of all. When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme. In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality. And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more. From delusion lead me to truth From darkness lead me to light From death lead me to immortality."

That is from the Upanishad, sacred texts of Hinduism dealing with broad philosophical questions, as quoted in the Neodämmerung lyrics,....you know... the music playing during the Super Brawl...

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Quote: He who knows both knowledge and action, with action overcomes death and with knowledge reaches immortality. so a brilliant man (say a recognized athiest FRUED)-btw your athiest is IMMORTAL? (hes dead last time i checked) and to say that his KNOWLEGE makes him immortal is rediculous. his ACTIONS may "immortalize" someone in the "metaphoric" sence but not in the LITERAL sence. so thats not logical at all.

You study philosophy for a hobby, right?....

Either you are completely lost with this,... or you have some hell of a fun in provoking people.

Raksasha doesn't make his world view instantly obvious. He thinks that no one can have a real valid concept of morality without being religious. He also believes that murders should be killed and that this is good so your example won't mean much to him.

I don't see how religion comes into this debate anyway. Neo asked for peace - he got it in exchange for killing Smith - in order to kill Smith he had to die - peace was won.

No more agents. Freedom for exiles and humans. Blue sky in the matrix.

I understand the trilogy and I am not going to keep arguing with someone who does not. I tried to help, but there is no helping someone who fails to see the truth. Some of the things you are incorrect on are not so difficult to answer. Others require watching the trilogy a few times. That basic truth is that Neo's path differed from all the other Ones when he walked through the door back to the Matrix in the Architect's room. Only 23 people were meant to rebuild Zion. Is that so hard to understand? No humans knew of the other Ones. Morpheus didn't. Programs like the Oracle and Merovingian did, but no humans. I won't keep arguing if you can't accept these basic concepts.

super-long posts are a pain in the dick.

Fatpie42 wrote:

He thinks that no one can have a real valid concept of morality without being religious.

And this from someone who sees only black and white....

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He also believes that murders should be killed and that this is good so your example won't mean much to him.

Well,....what can I say?

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I don't see how religion comes into this debate anyway.

I think religion is not inevitable to understand the movies, but it certainly helps.
For example,... you can gain a better understanding for the last picture of Neo - beeing carried away by the machine, glowing in light - when you know about the meaning of Buddha in the Lotus.
I don't think Neo is Jesus or Buddha or any other religious figure. IMO he is "just" the saviour of mankind in the Matrix universe. But, I think, the brothers were using religious symbolism, that we are (or need to become) familiar with, to hint us at the meaning of certain events or people.