»Why are the agents trying to kill the keymaker?«

He is not rebelling. He is controlling.

-Genesis

Genesis wrote:

He is not rebelling. He is controlling. -Genesis

Sorry, misread post (3.37am here).

read it like, 'just like the enslaved humans and rebels too'

Scrape that question.

Previous question if missed:

How can a digital projection plug into the Matrix? One must be already plugged into the Matrix to get a Digital Projection right?

Can you elaborate?

Quote:

Anyway, the machine's digital self, the Architect, plugged into the Matrix just like the enslaved humans and rebels do

I could be misreading this too LOL

I am afraid that you have my friend. Sorry for me speaking in such complex terms.

-Genesis

Genesis wrote:

I am afraid that you have my friend. Sorry for me speaking in such complex terms. -Genesis

Nah, it's just me tired this morning. I'm over analysing things LOL. Reading it again I know what your saying. Basically 'just like the humans who are plugged in'

But I read it again and thought, hmm... this is interesting LOL.

Any how, thanks for the chat Genesis, I agree with the Machine's Digital Projection theory and I think the other theory of a program being able to recreate the matrix could work too if that program's purpose was to do that.

Yes the Architect could be the image of a machine. But in the Matrix itself he is pure code.
And then the machine which is presented as the Architect also has to have some kind of code in it, in order to make a projection.
So the Architect we see is just a coded shell.

Do any of you believe that the Architect is Deus Ex Machina?
That would be strange. In his chamber he says: "the function of the one is now to return to the Source...". If he is the Source, then Neo is allready there right? He only has to touch Archie.
But then again, many do not believe that Deus Ex is the Source.

There are so many options to think of.
I personally think that the Architect is a stand-alone program created by the Source. He is granted with high authority in order to write the Matrix-program and compile it from the Source.
He has been given a purpose now: balance the equation.
The Source delegates tasks, this is efficient. And machines are by all means efficient and rational.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

<snip> Do any of you believe that the Architect is Deus Ex Machina? That would be strange.<snip>

Why would it be strange?

If Archie is the Digital Projection of Deus Ex Machina, it still makes sense. Neo doesn't have to touch his Projection. Archie says, that door leads to the source and the salvation of Zion. So the Digital Projection is pointing Neo to the real thing through that door..?

Note: I did not say I believe this, but I don't think it's strange at all nor do I believe that Neo would just have to touch Archie.

You have a good point there. Could absolutely be possible.

Touching the old dirtbag would go too far. None of the predecessors would have done that

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what is Deus Ex Machina? Note: I ahve not seen Revolutions yet.

-Genesis

Deus Ex is the huge spikey rounded robot 'face' which is talking to Neo in the Machine City.

I believe that it is the mainframe of which the Oracle talks about in M2; the Source.

Just for the record, what I meant was this: A machine might be able to plug into the Matrix *in a more superior way than the humans, I might add*, and then assume the Job of the Architect. But I don't think so. If the Oracle IS INDEFINATELY A PROGRAM, and the Architect and the Oracle are OPPOSITES, they have to both be programs. There is no opposite to a program. So they have to be the same.

Purpose is purpose, my friend. They both do not have to be programs to be opposites. They never said they were complete opposites anyway. It is their purpose that makes them the opposites they are.

-Genesis

Oracle, the great manipulator,
I personally do not think she's fullfilling people's destinies, but making them. Remember the first time The Oracle and Neo met? She told him "don't worry about the vass", then in some confusion he turned and broke it.

I don't think it was his destiny to break it, but rather that she MADE him break it. I've been giving this example a lot, but just as if I were to hit someone's arm, I would make them flinch, or cradle their sore arm. I see very little diffrence between me hitting someone's arm, and telling someone not to worry about a vass they're standing right next to.

I should probably give a diffrent example. Ok, this one involves something that really does work, but it's in video games. Anyway, here it is.

In this game, you have options of what kinds of weapons to have.. either very short ranged, very powerfull weapons, which require ammo. Or somewhat weaker, long range weapons, which fire much more slowly, but don't run out of ammo. Ok.. that's the set up, now here's the trick >

When using the short ranged weapon against someone with the longer ranged weapons, they only have to stay at distance and slowly pick you off. However, if you fire off a good number of shots, then say "Ah darn, I'm out of ammo." They will move in close for an easy kill. > Infact, you can run directly at them, if they start to think "it's a trick" and try to keep their distance again, you can follow up with, "Just hurry up and end it quick." Once they're in range.. you just fire off a couple shots and they're gone.

I've only had 1 time of a great many where it didn't work. As you can see I was manipulating people with my words and actions, very effectivly. I think The Oracle does the same thing as this, only better, and on a much more complex scale.

I think she tells The Architect how the equasion works.. even though she knows what the real outcome will be and The Architect doesn't. The Architect uses that equasion to make the agents, keymaker, cities, everything, trusting that the equasion is right, and that The Oracle is right too.

So yeah, I don't think she was making people fullfill their destiny.. she was manipulating them, and making them do things, oftly well I must say.

I think you're right about the Oracle, but I think that's also been established already. Neo never actually had choices or made choices, she guided him along and introduced new facts or situations to him which she knew would make him do what she wanted him to do. As Merv said, " choice is an illusioin.

Genesis wrote -

Quote:

Purpose is purpose, my friend. They both do not have to be programs to be opposites. They never said they were complete opposites anyway. It is their purpose that makes them the opposites they are.

..." For every positive force there is an equal and opposing negative force"...

These forces when in harmony create a balance.

The Universe is full of them

Stealing my philosophies aren't you Another Smith?

BTW very nice avatar you have now!

I am still staying with the fact that they are opposites in terms of purpose.

Also, choice is definitely not an illusion. Just becuase the Oracle is changing they way things fluctuate does not mean choice does not exist. Everything can be explained by the choice and everything truely begins with it also. The Merovingian said "choice is an illusion between those with power and those who do not."

The Oracle defintely has more power than the Merovingian and we know saw from her explanation on choice in Reloaded that she does belive in it also.

-Genesis

Genesis wrote:

I am still staying with the fact that they are opposites in terms of purpose.

100% correct

Quote:

Also, choice is definitely not an illusion.

Also correct. The equation balances variables out by the prediction of actions in individual situations. 99% of this behaviour is (a bit) predictable.
And most of Neo's choices were also pure and out of free will.

Quote:

Everything can be explained by the choice and everything truely begins with it also.

Indeed.
Neo's path as the One began when he accepted Trinity's love/kiss in M1. From there on all his next choices can be predicted/explained. His 'job' is to understand it himself.

Quote:

The Merovingian said "choice is an illusion between those with power and those who do not."

He is referrering to the Architect (the one with power) who created the Matrix-program by implementing the choice-equation. About 99% of the people THINK their choices are real. But in fact the equation controls/governs their choices.
About 1% of the people are able to make choices out of REAL free will.

Mobil Ave Neo wrote -

Quote:

Stealing my philosophies aren't you Another Smith?

It's happening exactly like before...?

Thankyou - I know!

Choice isn't an illusion because the Orgie Woman could have chosen not to eat the cake. If she knew what was going to happen to her when she ate the cake, her desicion might be different, but still, if she hadn't eaten the cake, she wouldn't have had the orgie (and therefore become the Orgie Woman). Besides, sometimes those with power are still as uncontrolling as ever. Like when President Bush in America said that everyone should spy on their neighboors to see what they are doing, the mail services and basically all of the US said no.

Splintey wrote -

Quote:

Choice isn't an illusion because the Orgie Woman could have chosen not to eat the cake.

But the fact of the matter is... She had NO CHOICE... because the Matrix at that point had not been updated.

The Merovingian imposed his will on the cake-woman because he had the power to do that.
....But not today!....

By the way, thank you Mobil for your condolences and acknowledgement.

-Genesis

She did have a choice. How did she not have a choice? SHE ATE THE CAKE.

She never had a choice to agree on sucking his thingie
Normally she wouldn't do it. It was the cake that forced her

Mero made a point about Choice being an illusion and proved it by giving the girl his cake.

She had his cake and ate it too.

From that point onwards, she had no choice as her choice was given to her by his programed cake.

The only choice she had was to eat the cake or not.

Pssst, Mobil, don't tell anyone but it looks like we agree on something. Sssssh.

But she still had original choice, you can't deny that....