»Choice vs. An Omniscient Being«

Lately I have found myself pondering how choice can simultaneously exist with an all-knowing being. As Neo so elloquently put it, "If you already know what I'm going to do, how can I make a choice?" Or something like that. And the oracle's line that follows that question does not count as an answer!

The choice has already been made. We're here to understand why we made that choice.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

The choice has already been made. We're here to understand why we made that choice.

that makes me wonder when did Neo actually make choice.

Thanks for nothing pal! tee hee... But seriously guys, help me out.I have a ton of arguments ready to go, i just need someone to fight with...

There are no omniscient beings in the Matrix.

Quote:

Neo: And she knows what, everything? Morpheus: She would say she knows enough.

Being fated to do something and having free will do not contradict. Think about it, when do you ever make a "free" choice. You don't! However, you do make choices - some things are "chosen" even if the choices are not completely free. The answer to these things is always in the middle.

Let's say you are thirsty. Did you make a free choice to buy a drink? No! You knew you were made to buy a drink by natural forces in the world. However, we do have the ability to choose not to drink when we are thirsty, not to eat when we are hungry. We tend to have reasons for these descisions (dieting because we are too fat and it bothers us), but the outside facors do not seem sufficient.

Even if someone knows exactly what choices you will make it does not mean you did not choose them. Someone who knows all the other factors in the world will often be able to make very good guesses on what you will do, but they will not always know what you are going to do with solely a knowledge of the present. If they know the future they know what you will do simply because what you do IS what you do.

That I can only do one thing is not a problem because it is simply obvious that I cannot do two things at once. I cannot choose to be one side of the room playing the flute and the other side of the room drinking orange juice at the same time (unless it is a very small room and I am very good at playing the flute without breathing!). Once I have done something it is true that I could not have done anything other than that one thing. Therfore if someone could see into the future and see which I would choose they would have seen my fate.

That's a good way to put it. But if you believe in God, who would be an omniscient being, He knows what you are going to be drinking a week from now, so how are you allowed to choose it if He already knows what you are going to do? It seems like we don't really have choice, and that He chooses it for us.

I think the Oracle referred to his choice to become The One. He chose to become the integral anamoly after rising from his death. Because this choice was very influenced by love, he now has to understand why he is going to rescue Trinity. The choice of saving her was in fact never there; that event is a result of choosing to accept her love in M1. He now has to understand the path after this choice.

I don't think God chooses everything for us. He brings things on our path yes. But we humans have free will, we can decide what to do with things that come across our path. God can offcourse help you by bringing certain things on your path.

I think this is the same within the Matrix. When a mind in the Matrix makes a HUGE choice, a path is calculated by the equation. The system will try to bring events into this person's live in order to keep them within the parameters of this path.

I agree. I don't think God chooses for us, but rather knows the factors that effect the choice we are going to make.

The problem is that if there's an omniscient being, then everything you will ever do is already known to that being. Thus, it means you don't have the choice but to do each of those things, because if you chose to do anything else, then paradoxically the omniscient being is not omniscient.

However, the Matrix avoids this trap by making it clear that the Oracle is not omniscient.

God can see what our future free choices will be. Just because God could predict them does not mean that they were not free.

If you predict that I am going to stay sat down for the next five minutes does not make that action unfree. I could just as easily have jumped around on the table or gone out of the room. I do not see how the fact that you predicted that I would sit down because you had a vision of the future would make any difference to this.

My previous post was designed to solve the problem of ANY omniscient being including God. What do you feel is the problem here?

Ok, I'm going more along the lines of what Tiefling is saying, like how can you actually choose if someone already knows? Doesn't that contradict the 'free choice'? It makes it as though it isn't actually free, if someone already knows what you are going to do. All of this is really good stuff! Keep it coming, enlighten me!

I don't think that God predicts if he is an all-knowing being. There is no prediction in knowing.

I don't know how I can answer this question and still make sense, so excuse me if I don't.
Einstein once said that "God does not play dice." Why? Because he knows every number on which the dice will land. It's just like in real life. If you ch oose to commit suicide by jumping off a building, God knows every factor that contributes to this decision from you inner thoughts to the gravity that will effect your fall. You can just as easily walk away, and it is the fact that you have the CHOICE to that makes the choice free.

Alright, I know what you're saying. That's quite interesting. Thanks! Any other views on my above post?

If there is a God like in the christian-way then what's the point in him knowing it all?
Then the choices he might give us are no challenges for us to become better people. I think he brings you the same situations/choices in order to see if you have improved your 'christian' skills. He puts you to the test.

I personally think we are ALL God, ALL energy, ALL ONE consienceness.
I think we make our own paths. If you really want to achieve something in live, you will. You will see that you will meet the right people for the 'job' when the time is ripe. That's because your mind is set to it. You 'send out' your needs into the huge energy, into our shared conscienceness (you could kinda compare it to praying I guess). The right people will come along, because you 'attract' them with your energy.
Choice is what you do with the oppurtunities you get (like: shall I stay with my wife our shall I go into a new adventure with my new girlfriend?). You are absolutely free in making such choices.
Wrong choices will lead you to negative energy; this could escalate in a chainreaction of bad choices and negative energy.
Good choices will lead you to positive energy.
Achieving positive energy for yourself is harder than achieving negative energy. That's because I think the world is unbalanced: there is more negative energy than positive energy.
The whole Universe is balanced though: positive equals negative

Our human body (our genetics and our biological needs) determines for us that we show some kind of behaviour: we act upon instincts and desires. I think enlightment is to see that we DO NOT always have to act upon these desires and instincts. We can set ourselfs free from it, like the rebels set themselves free from the rules of the Matrix.

Bravo M. Ave! Well said! I'm starting to think that God might not be all-knowing, because fate and free will are totally contradicting each other.
Therefore: Either God is not all-knowing, or we do not have free will. I don't think the two can co-exist.

So is it like the Chaos Theory in that one person's choice effects everything? Such as a butterfly lands on a branch in the Amazon and a hardware store in Tokyo collapses?

Well, maybe not EVERYTHING, but someone who doesn't think their choice matters is wrong.

Well yes. The choices of one (to my opinion) stupid person like Bush affect the whole wide world.

But still you have the power to make your own path containing positive energy; allthough it's hard sometimes. Power and corruption rule this world. Not giving into it is hard for quite alot of people.

I totally agree with you MAve. I loved how you put that it is harder to get positive energy than negative, and that is why the world is so negative. Good thoughts!

That's cool Emilee

Glad to know another good soul!

Cool, that's an interesting idea. It reminded me of the other day in my Astonomy class. I sat in my friend's seat forcing him to sit somewhere else, which contributed to him throwing paper balls at the girl in front of him, which got him sent to the office. All because of my choice to sit in his seat!

did he marry that same girl later on?

No, but it wouldn't suprise me if he did. Not many girls are fond of him, I'm the only one that bothers to put up with him.

Aw, that's too bad. Great example! Poor kid...heehee