»NEO the MURDERER!«

did NEO murder Bane? (poor INNOCENT bane)-*spilling blood*
NO.
WHY?
because of INTENT.(its CLOSER to manslaughter) he was INTENDING on destroying agent smith. but EXECUTED Bane in trying to do so.
ooh poor DEFENCELESS bane.
NEO should be put in PRISON. and its a good thing that hes probably dead so that way he can pay for what he has done.
the ONE is a MURDERER!
oh. wait a sec.. thats right hes NOT.

(sorry for this LONG post)

i think bane was dead frm the moment smith hacked him. smith overwrote bane's concsiousness his memories etc and out himself there. there is no ' innocent bane' left

if that was true then EVERYONE in the matrix that smith took over is ALSO dead. but there NOT (i.e. the ORACLE)
and if your argument is that SHES a program and thats different, then i tell you to LOOK at the PEOPLE of the matrix (remember all those SMITHS) and the are not gonna end the movie with EVERYONE dead.
so hes not REALLY dead. (just being controlled)

under the guise of the W-bros, Bane's body was FORCED/CONTROLED by Smith like he was POSSESED by the devil.
but in REALITY in the HISTORY of the world not 1 person who didnt travel down the road of evil has been possesed by the devil.

and people arent possesed by the devil, they are possessed by someone under him. but people who are possesed only act or do things that they would ALREADY do under their own FREE WILL.
the devil cant MAKE you do anything that you wouldnt ALREADY do.

so if it was suppossed to be "REAL" or resemble "reality" which it is supposed to do, and BANE was "possesed" then he would have ALREADY wanted to attack/kill NEO.
so if THATS the case then BANE deserved to die, just as much as SMITH deserved to.
even under Hypnosis, (the most powerful form of control) people ONLY do things that they would ALREADY do.
and even people who are DRUNK do things that they would ALREADY do, BOTH of them just RELEASE inhibitions, and that is ALL.
so did in REALITY BANE deserve to die?
yes.
but in the W-brothers mind?
No. because it was their LAME attempt to make something controversial, and not many people have brought it up or even think twice about it.
why? because they felt INSTINTIVELY that bane should die, becuase when they saw the charachter bane they really saw SMITH.

Oh, so he just have just felt bad for Bane?
And it was SELF DEFENSE, Bane attacked Neo first.

Hang-on a sec, you're all sympathising with Bane, what about Smith?

Neo aided and abetted in the murder of Smith, tricking him so the machines could return him to the source. *sob, sob*
How utterly EVIL can you get ?

Well in a way the Oracle murdered Neo. I mean she filled his head with stuff like "YOU GOTTA GOTO THE SOURCE" and so he did, incidently he had to fight Smith.

Raksasha69 wrote:

did NEO murder Bane? (poor INNOCENT bane ...

Well, there is a difference between murder and self defence. But unfortunatly you are right.

In Matrix 1 Neo and Trin stormed the building in which Morpheus was captured. They killed numbers of security guards purposefully, not as an act of self defence. Their toll was in vain.

Eventually they highjacked a helicopter to do the job. Using their wits would have taken the helicopter just from the start and the security guards would be left unharmed. Or they might have used sleeping gas. ... but that would not give this brutal action sequences we love to see ....

Anyway, the morality of our heroes is indeed tampered.

Just-a-Program wrote:

the morality of our heroes is indeed tampered.

shocking.

If someone is under some kind of influence, be it drugs, hypnotism or being taken over by psychotic programs from the matrix, then they are not so responsible for their actions. This does not change the fact that when someone is atttacked they need to protect themselves from that attack.

Neo is not a muderer because he was acting in self defence. Bane is not responsible for Smith's actions, but Smith is reponsible for Bane's actions because he was possessing Bane.

Just-a-Program wrote:

They killed numbers of security guards purposefully, not as an act of self defence. Their toll was in vain.

i think you need to read a little bit more carefully there...fatpie42

When do they do that then? I can't remember a time when they are fighting security guards where they didn't actually need to for self-defence (remember that any of the security guards could potentially turn into an agent).

Fatpie42 wrote:

(remember that any of the security guards could potentially turn into an agent).

hmm...good point...
now i am utterly baffled. continue. please. both of you.

Fatpie42 wrote:

When do they do that then? I can't remember a time when they are fighting security guards where they didn't actually need to for self-defence (remember that any of the security guards could potentially turn into an agent).

Fatpie, I really like when you defend Neo, I would like to do so too. Unfortunatly there is well documented evidence in M1:

When Neo and Trin stormed the police building, they opend fire on the guards. This action shouldn't happen - see my first post this thread. Similar Scene, but not that obvious was cracking into Hells Club (M3)

Just-a-Program wrote:

Eventually [Neo and Trinity] highjacked a helicopter to do the job. Using their wits would have taken the helicopter just from the start and the security guards would be left unharmed.

Actually, because the helicopter was on the roof, the only way to the helicopter was through the lobby. Hence, the death of the security guards was innevitable. Then the swat team comes in after Trin and Neo let one of them get away, so they defended themselves by whooping ass! So you see, Just-a-program, that they didn't really have a choice to spare the guards at all.

HolEavataR wrote:

So you see, Just-a-program, that they didn't really have a choice to spare the guards at all.

Sorry, I don't see. Even if that would have been the only chopper available, there would have been a host of other options to avoid the killing of the guard. Think of sleeping gas, or a blinding granade or a fraction of those tricks you may be inspired of Mission Impossible, Oceans Eleven and the like.

Let's see... what if they used gas.

Then they'd have to kick ass against people wearing gas masks in smoke and we'd have had an obscured view of the kung fu - stuff that!

Raksasha69 wrote:

if that was true then EVERYONE in the matrix that smith took over is ALSO dead. but there NOT (i.e. the ORACLE) and if your argument is that SHES a program and thats different, then i tell you to LOOK at the PEOPLE of the matrix (remember all those SMITHS) and the are not gonna end the movie with EVERYONE dead. so hes not REALLY dead. (just being controlled)

ah, but not everyone in the Matrix had Smith downloaded into their real-world minds. when Agents ride around on hosts, they take the Matrix avatars and not the minds.

Smith overwrote Bane. there was no more Bane inside that head.

Fatpie42 wrote:

Let's see... what if they used gas. Then they'd have to kick ass against people wearing gas masks in smoke and we'd have had an obscured view of the kung fu - stuff that!

uh...this is what just-a-program said WAY before this argument started...

Quote:

Or they might have used sleeping gas. ... but that would not give this brutal action sequences we love to see .... Anyway, the morality of our heroes is indeed tampered.

so you see...the ball is still on your side of the court...

Quote:

Anyway, the morality of our heroes is indeed tampered.

But part of what makes a hero is someone who does what they need to do to get the job done i.e. self defence or to rescue a friend.

maxius wrote:

But part of what makes a hero is someone who does what they need to do to get the job done i.e. self defence or to rescue a friend.

It is examplatory to save a friend and risking his life - no question.

But the means aren't purified by the intentions, in particular if there had been other options. For instance take Jesus or Ghandi. Both were never violent but they both achieved very much. These are real life heroes exceeding the virtual ones, even that reality test makes it much harder.

nocturnal_anonymous wrote:

... so you see...the ball is still on your side of the court...

You have a nice picture, I like it ...

Lets drill a bit further. May be I should open a thread about:

As much of the Matrix audience are amazed of the story, world view, implication, dialogs and visuals I wonder if it really required to have so many fighting sequences and brutality.
Imagine to scratch out 70 Percent of the action sequences - would this also decrease its fascination and value? Or would it even make it better?

I think it would be nothing without the fight sequences. We would have been bored to tears without those and besides they are what shows how far the people in Zion are willing to go for what they believe in. If they didn't have to fight anyone they'd just be a buch of people wandering around and being pompous and arrogant.

Would you really have respect for Morpheus if he had never fought an agent?

Fighting Agents..that made me think.

You remember when Morpheus fights Smith (Smith, Agent Smith. You all look the same to me) And they fight and Morpheus is wery much loosing and it's like Smith is just playing with him and then Morphesu looses at the end

But when Morpeus fights Agent Johnson (who is the main agent now right?) He puts up a much better fight. Sure Johnson has the upper hand but Morpheus gets some good kicks here and there.

Maybe Agent smith is better Agent then Agent Johnson and the machines just don't know it...Hmmm?

HOW wud u like it if someone threatened to kill ur girl friend!
huh huh huh do'ya do'ya do'ya?
sorry - finding nemo - finding neo
anyway
sorry so anyway i think bane deserved to die cuz his purpose was to be changed into smith and to try to kill neo, blinding him and stroking him....