»Neo and Smith at the End Of Revolutions«

Haven't you watched the movie? He can destroy Sentinels with his mind when they are up close.
Deus is up close...so it's peanuts to signal him that he is going to agree in killing him.

Haven't you watched the movie? He can destroy Sentinels with his mind when they are up close.
Deus is up close...so it's peanuts to signal him that he is going to agree in killing him.

Sorry for the doubled post; accident.

The Oracle isn't controlling Smith. But for a breif moment, she speaks through him. Smith isn't being manipulated per se, but The Oracle, for a brief moment, makes her presence known through Smith, and we know that all assimilated people and programs still exist within the Smiths (since they reappear after he is destroyed).

Hmmm...but if this is true, why couldn't Smith see past a certain point of time?

Either he didn't understand the choice or the Oracle prevented it.

Essentially the same thing.

Mobile, Thank you for that response but I thought that was what I was trying to say. When Smith is copying himself into people he gaines all their memory. The oracle isnt speaking through Smith. He is trying to figure out the vision that he had of beating Neo. Or at least enough of the vision to lead him to believe that he was going to beat Neo. When he says that "Everything that ...." he is not only, finally affirming that there is no choice(because the future was already determined), but he is now forced to face the inevitablity of his own demise(something he had hoped to avoid with his attempts to kill neo). I think this also gives a clue that he may have known all along. Neo and Smith struggled with the inability to change the events around them. In life, one of the most common if not the most common fear we have is death. We do all we can to avoid it. We try to beat it. Through all of this there is one thing that will always be true. We will be dead. It is a part of life. It is the complete package. Everything that has a beginning has an end. In the end of the Matrix, it is both Neo and Smith who fight so hard against the things that are GOING to happen. They tried everything the could to get around it. They even had great powers to help them but with all that, Neo couldn't save trinity("She is going to die and you cant do anything to stop it"). Smith couldnt save himself, even though he seemingly managed to wipe out all potential enemies inside the matrix.

I think the Architect was putting it very clear(and truthfully) to Neo what was going on. But Neo could not accept it. There was no real choice. He even told him that there was a special program like him who actually had the sole purpose of making people believe there was a choice. Still Neo couldnt live with the fact that he "wasnt in control of his own life".

So apparently he was right and wrong.
The problem is choice.

Again a good post DesmondE !

Well he had a choice...he had the last saying, even above Smith and the Architect. He was in control of the faith of the (artifical) world.

Smith cannot see beyond the final choice, because the Oracle herself cannot either ("Even I cannot see beyond the end"). She could not 'calculate' past Neo's final choice within the equation, because he is the unstable/unpredictable factor of this very same equation.
Smith means nothing more than a possible solution to the equation-problem. He's just a puppet which can be used in solving the anomaly-factor of the equation.

So basically he was in denial, even though he knows what's going to happen? Somehow, I think that he would collapse into fetal position if he knew that he was going to loose. I mean, he was whining like a pathetic little kid when he realized he was being destroyed. Don't you think that he would do that, except eariler? And he seemed so SURPRISED when Neo got up again.
No, no this is wrong!
Kind of thing (I think that's about what he said). He wouldn't say that if he KNEW...

Splintey

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Again a good post DesmondE ! Well he had a choice...he had the last saying, even above Smith and the Architect. He was in control of the faith of the (artifical) world. Smith cannot see beyond the final choice, because the Oracle herself cannot either ("Even I cannot see beyond the end"). She could not 'calculate' past Neo's final choice within the equation, because he is the unstable/unpredictable factor of this very same equation. Smith means nothing more than a possible solution to the equation-problem. He's just a puppet which can be used in solving the anomaly-factor of the equation.

Exactly.

We are analyzing fragments of a long, convoluted story in isolation- and basing future reasoning on the conclusions thereby reached.

I've tried reasoning through this whole smith/neo thing, and have touched many of the trains of reasoning found here... but at each stage I am plagued by two nasty fears:

(1) Since I cant remember every shred of dialogue, and havent played Enter the matrix, which is the only way to really understand the oracle, her powers and their limits (from what i gather), I may be making wrong assumptions. This has been proven correct many times \as I browse this site and find yet another obscure line of dialogue brought to the fore, again and again.

(2) The writers of the story may actually have made errors. thus rendering all forms of analysis futile.


Anyway ranting aside, here's the meat of my post:

We seem here to have accepted that MwM is a defunct assumption, probably given some comments made by certain actors, etc. Because of that, we are giving explanations such as 'energy surges' being the cause of flesh-neo's death, or the source killing Neo's mind in order to kill smith, etc.

People, doing a mass-delete through a neural conduct will not cause an energy surge. And the 'body cannot live without the mind' has been shown not to apply to Neo, since he could choose not to die, even when killed in he matrix.

SO why do the WB's apply the SAME VISUAL EFFECT to neo's REAL WORLD DEATH as they did to Smith's MATRIX-DEATH in matrix-1? (minus the final explosion). WHY? isnt the world supposed to be REAL?

AND (and Im sure this has been asked hundereds of times) how does neo cause a sentinel to pass through his body? simply explaining it as magic is evading the point.... if Neo's magic was so potent he could simply will all the sentinels to die instead of complaining that 'they're too many'.

I'm not condemning our reasoning and conclusions here, as this site is suffieiently interesting AND informative that I've been content to just lurk and listen for so long. But I noticed that these issues lingered so I just HAD to post.... I hope this is the right place and time!

over to you, people...

The Sentinel going through Neo thing-

The Sentinel itself didn't actually go through Neo. You can see this if you watch the scene again. In that particular scene in the movie, we were seeing it through the machine code- The gold code. What went through Neo was the code (or spirit or soul) of the sentinel. Neo now knows about that sentinel. Just after that scene, Neo tells Trinity to go up in the sky because he now knew that the sentinels cant reach there.

clockpenalty wrote:

Since I cant remember every shred of dialogue, and havent played Enter the matrix, which is the only way to really understand the oracle, her powers and their limits (from what i gather), I may be making wrong assumptions.

ETM has interesting thoughts and additions, but is not really needed to understand the Oracle.

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(2) The writers of the story may actually have made errors. thus rendering all forms of analysis futile.

I doubt it.

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We seem here to have accepted that MwM is a defunct assumption, probably given some comments made by certain actors, etc. Because of that, we are giving explanations such as 'energy surges' being the cause of flesh-neo's death, or the source killing Neo's mind in order to kill smith, etc.

I think the Source neutralizes all his (brain)cells; some way killing them all from the inside.
I am not a scientist...Does anyone know if you can kill cells without seeing any damage on the outside of the body?

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People, doing a mass-delete through a neural conduct will not cause an energy surge. And the 'body cannot live without the mind' has been shown not to apply to Neo, since he could choose not to die, even when killed in he matrix.

I don't think it is mass-deletion.
AzarN had a brilliant option for that. The Source absorbed them both. Positive and negative together means zero. So Smith becomes a 'nobody' within the Matrix and his general conscienceness dies off.

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SO why do the WB's apply the SAME VISUAL EFFECT to neo's REAL WORLD DEATH as they did to Smith's MATRIX-DEATH in matrix-1? (minus the final explosion). WHY? isnt the world supposed to be REAL?

I guess it symbolizes deletion or something?
Smith dies about the same way as he did in M1.

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AND (and Im sure this has been asked hundereds of times) how does neo cause a sentinel to pass through his body? simply explaining it as magic is evading the point.... if Neo's magic was so potent he could simply will all the sentinels to die instead of complaining that 'they're too many'.

He can only contact and 'hack' Sentinels up close. His mind has to connect to them on a bio-electric way. I don't know exactly how it happens (I am not a scientist) but I know it is physically possible. He makes contact with the Sentinels (probably through his plug) by some sort of energic radiation.
Therefor he can only focus on one Sentinel at a time. His mind has to focus on each of them, so that's why there are too many for him.

The Sentinel flying through him is not magic. At that moment his mind is focusses/connected with this Sentinel. It is killed, but it's bio-electric energy is not yet solved and it flies through the ship passing his body and pushing him aside.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

The Sentinel going through Neo thing- The Sentinel itself didn't actually go through Neo. You can see this if you watch the scene again. In that particular scene in the movie, we were seeing it through the machine code- The gold code. What went through Neo was the code (or spirit or soul) of the sentinel. Neo now knows about that sentinel. Just after that scene, Neo tells Trinity to go up in the sky because he now knew that the sentinels cant reach there.

Interesting point. Never thought of that.
But he can 'know' the Sentinels allready by just connecting his mind to them can't he?

I never quite understood why they did fly up...and why can't Sentinels go there?

When they fly up to the clouds, the results of Operation Dark Storm (i.e the lightening and electrical interference) the electrical circuits of the Sentinels and the Logos are fried and topple back to earth.

AzarN wrote:

When they fly up to the clouds, the results of Operation Dark Storm (i.e the lightening and electrical interference) the electrical circuits of the Sentinels and the Logos are fried and topple back to earth.

Aaah! That's why they had to make an emergancy landing.

This also explains why the machines cannot send stuff up the clouds to still drain energy from the sun.

But this also speaks against AG's argument of Neo 'knowing' the Sentinel. He just is exhausted and feels he is not going to beat them. He sees an option by going through the sky.

Neo knows how to do this via merging with the sentinel? Perhaps. Fine. Even so, logic seems to diciate that it would work. Going through the sky is a quick and easy means of eliminating the sentinels. He isn't just doing it to run away. He has a purpose in going up.

n/a

The wachowski's made no mistake in what they did with the movies. I believe the fact that they had such a hard time selling the movie to warner brothers forced them to make the first movie seem to be a standalone project that could be appended later..
But thats another show entirely.
There is no formula for the logic and rules to the matrix. I think the whole underlying theme to the movies is that life is an illusion. Some people see this but most dont. Neo was the one who was understanding it. In our world it is no secret that there is a growing number of people who believe this. Buddhism is based on the same principle. don Juan spoke to Carlos Castaneda about alot of the images you see in the movie.

don Juan said that we are all energy. He even says that there are forces of energy that "feed" on the negative energy in the world. These entities of course being the ruling class, who orchestrate global events to meet their needs.

Funny the parallels that are there. The energy from the humans in the matrix is used to feed the machines. Who inturn create a matrix for humans to live inside. With secret police to keep things in order. The men in black who are the shadow government that is alluded to in nearly every movie or television show.

The thing about Neo (I think) is that he always the guy that was outsiide the box looking in. He was understanding why more and more as the story went on and on. When the sentinel flew through him in the last movie, if you notice, there was no indication that trinity saw the same thing. To me this means that he saw this and reacted. When trinity grabs him she may have thought it something bad was happening but she did not see what he saw.

Also Neo saw everything in that "glowing code" after he was killed and came back with his mind. I believe that when that happened he realized that his mind could do much more than move fast and kick peopl's asses. Hence his changed appearance in the last movies and the fact that he doesnt even look at a gun when fighting(these were definitely an option before)

I dont think neo knew the finality of what he had to do until the very end when Smith says to him "Everything that has a beginning....". I think that Smith wanted to say this to him as a "Coup de gras" before finishing what he thought was the monumental task of his existence. But I think Neo accepted it at that time. And in turn Smith realized the same thing. Still not wanting to accept it he killed neo hoping that it was just a trick. But it wasnt. The connection between Neo and smith was never really clear to me until I started to see that Smith was "everywhere" that neo was. He even says that to him in the logos. I understood then that he was no longer an agent. He wasnt even a program. He was projection the other side of who neo must have been. Like a separate personality that Neo projects subconsciously. Having negative feeling towards this part of him, maybe he put a face on this personality that best suited the way he felt about it. Thus creating the new Smith. The new Smith knew everything Neo knew. And seemed to find Neo easily while agents were at the mercy of wiretaps and old fashioned policework. He was even in a coma at the same time as neo!

Maybe just speculation.

As for the code. Its just what neo wants to see as the energy that is there. He could just see more than the others. The energy he saw was the truth of what we all are. We are energy, down to the smallest part of us. Atoms are energy that quantum leaps about in empty space in enough frequency that we can percieve it to be matter. It is all just an illusion. We are surrounded by it in real life. Every sense that we have is fed information in an astronomical amount. By people who have agendas. Try to remember some aspect of life that is not completely controlled by some force other than yourself. you will find many roads that seem to end in a choice that is made by you but in truth it is not. If there were some such thing as choices, why would we make bad ones. and if thet is left to our intelligence or lack there of, why has the entire planet seem to have gone to the bad decisions with, our environment, eachother, and everything that is important.

I am not saying this to make some personal statement. I am just saying what made me come to this conclusion. It seems to me that it is easier to see that reality as we know it as an illusion, and void of logic and reason.
The same as in the matrix-converts.
Neo must have been one that saw the reasons why.

Rant #1:

To say that there is no formula for logic/rules in "the matrix" is to introduce an element of inconsistency that renders the entire story meaningless. Rewatch M1 and listen for instances of the word 'rule'.

The matrix works because it is consistent with its ideas. So whenever you see something that appears 'out of place', for example, a man dodging bullets, it is immediately rationalised by the context... the man is in 'the matrix'.... bending arbitrary rules in a computer system.

The moment he steps out of the matrix, he can no longer dodge bullets.

Anything that is not immediately rationalised, eventually is explained either by analysis of what has gone before, or by revelation. for example, the oracle can see the future? no sweat, just wait for reloaded! there we tell you she's a program that 'creates' a future by creating prophecies! brilliant! wonderful!

That's what's good about the matrix! Logic, rules and consistency.

Sorry, but if someone proves to me that the matrix has become a drunkard's waking dream, I'll feel very stupid indeed.



RANT #2:

it is an interesting concept: opposites cancelling each other out. However we could just as easily say that Magneto and Xavier are opposites in the X-Men storyline, and their sum should therefore be zero, hence the non-existence of onslaught, etc.

Simply put: it provides a great DESCRIPTION for the event AFTER the fact, but does not give an explanation. Neo and his evil twin summing up to zero does not explain their simultaneous death when Neo was assimilated.

However I hesistate to condemn any theory that has been put forward for I have none of my own that I would assess as foolproof.

I am completely baffled by the manner of Neo's real-world death. I can't say that physically killing a host of Smith should terminate him.... bane died... and having a bright light shine out of your head...THEN appearing unscathed is not the stuff of reality to me.

RANT #3

concerning the ghost sentinel...

Bioelectric energy? I'm sorry but I do not concur. Machines do not have souls, and even if they did, computer programs do not exist within the machine as bioelectric energy...and there's certainly no 'afterimage' that remains to 'transfer' the knowledge of a sentinel to a human being. If that is the description, then it is the most horrible form of pseudo-science I can imagine.


AFTER IT ALL:

The only thing that is clear to me from revolutions is that the rules of reality have been bent out of shape and broken in the same manner that they were broken within a computer simulation, by the person who broke the same rules in the simulation, in a method taught to him by others who could also bend/break said rules using a perfectly realistic method.

Does this not imply that reality itself is naught but a simulation?

My head's beginning to hurt. If they had just come clean and admitted MwM everything would make sense instantly. Think about it.

Clock Penalty
In your post you state that the matrix is consistant with its ideas, but we know that the matrix had changed multiple times to suit the nature of its human inhabitants, and still had to be reloaded because of an anomaly, that despite all of its efforts, the architect, could not rectify.

Anomaly- Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule.

Also in your post, you say that outside of the matrix neo cannot dodge bullets. Apparently he doesnt have to. He can destroy them with a wave of his hand. Better than that, he can destroy swarms of sentinels, OUTSIDE OF THE MATRIX.

Next, the oracle may see into the future, but it is the fact that she lets people in on what she knows and manipulates that. Maybe time is also an illusion. Just as well the logic that gives its existence any merit.

I dont understand what you mean about a drunkard's waking dream.
Neo was never ok with the way he saw the world as far as we know. So I dont think that he was one day awakened to realize that the world was so wrong. We all know something is wrong with the world. Its the fact that we do something about it or accept it that makes us different. A drunk waking from a dream lives in blissful unnawareness of what is wrong and is hit with it when he wakes up. So I dont believe the concepts would ever match enough to convince you.

Smith was not Neo's evil twin, he was a manifestation of Neo. See if this doesnt hint towards an explaination.
Maybe Neo created Smith subconsciously. I think that you may be a little stuck on the equal eachother out.
As an athlete or any person involved in any competition. You always have one opponent that you cannot beat. No matter how hard you train no matter how much time you take to hone your skill. That opponent is yourself. But that does not stop you from training or competing. It makes you better.
Thats a crude example but it does provide a concept that I think may apply to the relationship between the two.
Charles Xavier and Eric Lehnsherr were part of an entire universe of characters who "cancelled eachother out" Name a marvel universe character that survived its first year of publication that did not have an arch enemy that seemed to never go away or that seemed like he was equal to the hero.

But to explain their simultaneous death, IF neo created smith as a projection from his mind. Would it not make sense that the projection would die when the projector did.
Is there not a parallel betwin this and how all people create their own arch enemies.


Regarding ghosts, there is not allusion to any ghost, or godlike creatures or entities of any kind in the movies as being real. There is no disputing the fact that we are made of energy and that we can project this energy in a number of different ways. So maybe a better term or different description will help.

Machines may or may not have souls. But then how do we know that we have them. Can you see them? What indicates that we have one? Scripture?
If thats the answer we can end this thread now because that is not only illogical but lunacy. For the time being lets consider that in the story we are talking about machines that revolted against humans for their own survival. Which may or may not say that they are more like humans than we think.
Try and think hard about what it is that has given you the idea that you have a soul. When you have that proof lets go make a million bucks. Until then lets assume that we dont have one. What separates us from the machines. Concepts like love, hate? In the beginning of the 3rd movie the man at the train station says. "What is love, love is a word", "what matters is what the word implies a connection" and the priority of the connection. All this is very simple to understand without the assumption that we are somehow better than every species of animal or whatever life form we come across.

In finishing.
Yes, the movies definitely lead towards showing you that the world is an illusion.
In the movie artwork book for the matrix, it is written that Neo was not meant to be a representation of a relious figure, but a man who realized the illusion and saved the world from it.
The book that neo picks up that has the disks inside. In the first movie. Simulcra and Simulations
Jean Beadrillard
Read what he says about disny and the american influence on the world and what illusions are there.

On another note. I wanted to say this before. eXistenZ had to be the worst movie I have seen since Dracula 2000.

Love Peace and Hairgrease Yall

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Apparently he doesnt have to. He can destroy them with a wave of his hand. Better than that, he can destroy swarms of sentinels, OUTSIDE OF THE MATRIX.

That's only because they are connected to the source. Why didn't he just destroy Baine if he could destroy whatever he wanted?

DesmondE and clockpenalty:

Thanks for those interesting posts. I enjoyed reading them.

Emilee:

The Sentinels are connected to the Source as a communications/guiding system; just like Skynet from the Terminator-movies. I think Deus Ex Machina is the Source (or at least the centre-point of it) and from there all the Sentinels get their energy and instructions.

Smith originated from the Source as a program. But he is not connected to it.
When Neo became blind, he had to rely more on his other senses: also his sixth sense.
He senses the energy from Bane and interprates this in his brain as the program Smith. That is why he sees his whole image (with sunglasses and all).

So are you saying that if he could have seen him like that before he could have destroyed him on the spot? (by the way, I don't believe Neo can stop bullets in the real world)