»Box within a Box theory...«

I am new to this forum so I say hello to all you creative and bright individuals. I just wanted to comment on the theory that Zion is also a computer program. As I stated, I am new so I am not up to speed on all the prior enties concerning this topic. However, the clue that makes me believe that the machine world is also fake is the fact that serif (forgive me if I spelt that wrong) appears in Neo's eyes to have the same gold encoding that the machine world has. If this holds true with the same gold encoding of the machine world in Revolutions than I would believe that the machine world is also a program, but it is different than that of the green encoding present in the orignal matrix. However, if you think that logic out the two programs spawned by the mother and father of the two waring programs... who is on the outside of those two programs? Is it humans? Maybe more machines? I don't really know... The human brain can't deal with the infinite so I can understand why many state that zion is real... but "Dispite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage."

Me & my friend thought of this theory a few weeks after seeing the first Matrix & way befor ever seeing of hearing about Reloaded. In the 01, Neo doesn't see coding, he just sees with his mind. Nothing like the coding for programs.

I think that a lof of fans (including me) thought about the matrix in the matrix theory.

However, I desagree with Neo not seeing codes in "orange vision". Look at Smith-Bane when he's slaughtered, you see that his body is vanishing into air with a fractal design that look like a flamme but it is not.

Moreover, how do you explain the sentinel passing through Neo if he's seeing with his mind ? The sentinel actually didn't enter in the vessel so what Neo has seen was completly virtual. And thus, an encoded thing, but that code much more complexe and is made of fractals, wich are very hard to be seen when you only can see the main machine without looking at the details.

These would seem to be very valid and probably correct arguments to what I have stated in my prior message. What I find to be interesting about this topic in general might go outside the filmed Matrix. I have this on going problem that I keep asking myself... if space is infinite how would we ever know that it is infinite? Because if space is infinite we would travil forever never coming to its end because there would be no end... however if space turns out to be not infinite we would come up to some kind of "wall." A friend of mine had the answer that much like a circle has no end so does infinity, thus if we traviled fast enough we would end up back where we started and in theory time traviling. But when I heard that I invisioned a sphere that by its own design would be a confind space... what's beyond the sphere? I guess this would be the larger question that should be asked. So, even if Zion is real, human beings would be confind not only by our physical bodies and countless other factors but by our inability to understand and experience the infinite. Any comments or counter arguments would be great.

I see what you mean about the infinity... but in theory, we are creating the space ourself by expanding it.

There are 2 concepts : the space is infinite or limitless. Einstein thought that it was limitless. So what's the difference between infinite and limitless?

Infinite universe means that, as far as you go, you'll always meet some new matter, new worlds etc. Being limitless means that the quantity of matter in universe is limited and if you go beyond the farther point, then you'll become the new farther point by stretching the space with you.

In other words, you are creating the new frontier. So, once again, it would be like faith : the one who believes in a limited universe would travel hopping that he would meet the last point but not realizing that he has become that last point, a little bit like Neo becoming the One because the Oracle convinced him that he was not

I have 3 proverb illustrating my thought :

"there is a difference between knowing the path... and walking the path" Morpheus
"don't lower you hands, the miracle could come just now" Arabish proverb.(note : lower you hand means in arabish "to throw in the sponge" too).
"it is not by sleeping that you will realize your dreams" Jewish proverb.

Yeah ok that last one is little off-topic but I like it too

Very interesting comments indeed Apocryphe. The question you raised about the difference between limitless and the infinity is probably the best argument concerning my proir thoughts about the universe having an infinite recessive causes in which we are apart of. The one thing that I have been thinking about alot also is the idea that if we are here by chance due to an infinite chain of causes and effects it could be said that we have no purpose for being her... sounds a bit like Smith to me. The human mind rejects the idea that there is not one starting point to the universe. Because with that lack of a beginning it gives human beings no set path in which to walk upon... you have no intended purpose. Smith: "without purpose we would not we would not exist. Thus, religions answers this question of purpose and gives us a bath on which to walk. And in doing so keeps us in check by the ideal that we will be judged for our actions. However, in reality we "are completely out of control." It is the ultimate illusion. Take a look at the frenchman's words in the resturante. We must lie to ourselves in order to have a purpose for our future actions. Even the architect states this illusion to Neo before he makes his choice. This idea of choice comes down to one choice... Whether or not you choose to continue living or not... after all we live in the moment like all other creatures on this planet... and like all other creatures we too will die: "it is inevitable," as Smith put it. You could also state "I think therefore I am." When you die your brain can't think, therefore in death your mind becomes nothing... we become nothing... it is as if we didn't exist. "why does there have to be something... Why can't there be nothing?," known as the darkest pair questions in philosophy.

I agree with all what you wrote (assuming that I understood you well) except the religious part (if I got it right).

Did you mean that religion was a good thing because it was giving us a purpose ? My personal opinion is that religions only create more conflicts and fanatism.
Why is it that we are so desesperate, that we always need to search guidance from something else while the path is inside of us ?
It's just like I said, the man searchig to reach the last frontier and then becoming that last frontier, going so far to finally find himself.

About purpose : maybe that purpose is only a psychological concept, maybe that purpose is not required, all we need to do is to exist. And all the rest will happen by itself, since we are, as you put it so well, not free at all. So as you said, the only ultimate choice is to live or not... all the rest is cause and consequences.

Thank you again for your interesting feedback. Soon after I had posted my prior comments I began to further gather my thoughts on what I had wrote. If like the frenchman puts it "we are forever slaves to causality." I had overlooked something which is very clear to me now... when Morphous states that "everything begins with choice" and right after that the frenchman says "No! Choice is an illusion created by those who have power." It could be said that even the choice to live or die is somehow beyond our control. For example, if we took all the so called "right" choices (and I don't speak of morality) to make us live as long as we can... we would still be fighting death. Death, it would seem, carries the power that creates the illusion of choice. We fight against it we try to deny it, that we will all die. However, on the other hand we could choose to give into death... it seems that Neo's fighting of agent Smith (who has become a cancer) throughout the Triology could symbolize the human condition to servive which I believe is the simplest function we have... it is almost as if we fight our own form...

In regard to your comments about "becoming the new frontier"... How could "one" ever reach that point if there is no end point to surpass? If causality is truth... then how can there ever be an end? I still stand by what I wrote in my prior response... but maybe it is only through death that are minds are ultimately free... even though we would never know it or not. The weird thing is that even after we are dead our dead bodies will still produce cause and effect relationships with the earth. However, in death our minds are free of the cause and effect relationship that trapped us in the living present because it no longer exists... our minds are no longer useful... to the cause and effect relationship. Ironic isn't it?

P.S. My thoughts on the reason for religion is more tied into the idea of social structure... a way in which the masses are policed on the idea that there is good and evil (good or bad... etc.). Thus, being able to control large numbers of people simply by the illusion of power... other factors are then put into the equation to further enforce this illusion. Without this I believe human beings would be "totally out of control," as the frenchman put it.

Well once again I agree (that becomes an habit ) . If all humans were to know for sure that there was no life after death, who would car about being honnest and all, to do the right thing, when their time is counted ? What else except his own happiness would matter then ?

So yes, religions are a kind of an attempt from our mind to rationalize the lack of sens of our existence. But slowly, people as you and me are becoming more and more numerous and then I hope that one day humanity will learn to accept his condition.

And who knows, maybe that with genetics, humans will become immortal and finally all that pain that we suffer would have had a sense.

For the end point : basically, there would not be end points in fact, just the "farthest" point. Basically, space and time is supposed to be stretching with us. Outside of our universe, these concepts don't even exists.
Same applies to time. Everyone wonders what was before creation ? And even if we know, what was before that and before that again etc. ?

The answer, according to physicians, is that our mind is unable to understand that there could not be "before's" (just as there is no space beyond the one we create) because time itself didn't exist before the creation. We are so much in our illusion, so much bound to the basic rules of this universe, that we can't think correctly about these notions.

I have one question for you... what happens when someone else becomes the new frontier as you put it? I was just wondering. Maybe there isn't an answer but it never hurts to ask. Anyway thanks again for your comments, any comment is a good one in my opinion. Look forward to your answer regarding my question and thanks for your time.

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however if space turns out to be not infinite we would come up to some kind of "wall." A friend of mine had the answer that much like a circle has no end so does infinity, thus if we traviled fast enough we would end up back where we started and in theory time traviling. But when I heard that I invisioned a sphere that by its own design would be a confind space... what's beyond the sphere?

This question raises its head outside of Matrix debate -

The first thing to visualise in your mind is the space you are thinking about - don't get confussed - if you are thinking of all the space enclosed within a sphere then this will not work - that is because if you were at the centre of a sphere and travelled outwards you would "hit" the edge - therefore this is space would be finite.

You can try and visualise it as follows:

Step 1) What you have to do to try and visualise this is consider only the surface of the sphere - a surface with an infinitely thin thickness - if you were infintely thin and were "on" this surface then you can travel in any direction and come back on yourself - this surface would appear to be 2 dimensional to you - there is no up or down.

Step 2) Now the tricky bit is to expand upon this - we know that we have 3 visible spacial dimensions - forward/backward - left/right - up/down. (or X,Y,Z if you like). Now you have to expand the infinitely thin thickness of the surface from step 1 (the up/down dimension) - you have to expand this surface infinitely until they meet - the same way as left meets right on the 2D sphere surface.

Obviously our brains don't deal with visualising a physical shape like this very well - but mathematics has no problem with it at all - (pythagoras can tell you how long a line is between the end of four lines in four spacial dimensions - you just square them and add them up then square route the answer in the same way you do for two dimensions) its annoying but you just can't do it! but thats how it works.

The simple answer to the question of what is outside is simply "there is no SUCH THING as outside of this space" this is also annoying but there cannot be any space we regonise outside of our universe - by definition.

There is one more thing which confusses people about what is at the "edge". When we look into space with powerfull telescopes we find a wall - but its not a physical wall. the universe is only about 12 billion years old - the speed of light is a constant - when we look at distant objects we are effectively looking back in time - the boundary obviously pops up because there is nothing further than 12 billion light years away - the best hubble images show galaxies being formed at the beginning of time! The edge of the observable universe is not a physical barrier it is defined by the speed of light and the age of the universe.

sorry if I drifted off the point a little.

back to the matirx!:

for me what the films say is pretty much; we cannot know what is outside. But they do invesigate and go some way to expaining it with metaphors. I could go on for ages but basically I see the architect and the Oracle as a representation of the forces which "define" existence. The architect provides the rules, code and logic which provide "physical substance/space" the Oracle serves up the architects ingredients in a "rich" way giving us choice/difference and ultimately "life".

Apocryphe wrote:

If all humans were to know for sure that there was no life after death, who would car about being honnest and all, to do the right thing, when their time is counted ?

it wasn´t any religion that pushed me to be honest in the past, nor will it happen in the future. for me it is clear that smith and the frenchman are right (as neo said to smith: "you´re right. you always were..") "it is inevitable". in the matrix as well as in our actual universe everything relies on causality. it IS the only truth. our free will is NOT free. imagine yourself trying to make a decision. let´s say between A and B you would like to choose A. But now you´re going to say: "No, i´ve got my free will, i´ll choose B!" in this case you chose B to show me that there is a free will. so it would be your ego to push you to act in a way that finally you are right (it´s just for example, not meant personally). i just want to say, however you decide, or decide to decide, or decide to decide to decide, there is always a reason, or a reason behind the reason.... by knowing absolutely ALL informations of our universe we could actually calculate the future. it would take an enourmous computer and maybe 200000 years to calculate the next 0.0001 second, but its just mathematical logic happening. in fact, our Universe is a matrix calculating itself (but without the outside-living-beings controlling us for their purposes, well i hope so).
but that´s the point: we won´t ever be able to get all informations. there is the proven heisenberg-law that says the following: the more accurate you measure the position of a particle the less accurate you can measure its contemporary speed, because "measuring" means to shot lightwaves on that particle (measure=see -> light), which of course alters the speed of the particle... so our universe seems to be just perfectly mathematical, but we humans (or machines, which also need to measure with waves) will never be able to SEE the whole universal-logic, we can just try to reconstruct it in our brains..
another interesting facts is that it is proven that no information can be transferred at a speed faster than the speed of light: our universe actually is some thing about information, calculations, causality.. "the only truth." and our lives are indeed without meaning or purpose. if you put a closer look to religions you´ll actually see that it is THAT they want to teach you: enjoy the beauty of nature, make wine out of your water, just let your mind and body be one and trust in yourself, THAT power will help you and THAT power is god. to know that you are small and meaningless under the laws of physics and logic shall give you safety.
i know that raises the question: no religion? no moral truth? then what is right and what is wrong? then let me tell you that nietzsche (the father of: "god is an illusion etc") also said: "there is a madness about the Good and the Bad". there isn´t a moral truth. in small terms i think you just can go for the choice that harms the least amount of people, this choice should be the "goodest". but in bigger terms (thinking of political decisions or something affecting a huge amount of people) you can hardly calculate which decision causes which effect, or how much harm exactly..
so, know that we know that everything is action and reaction, what was the first action? the matrix was created by machines (we suppose so), but who "bootet" our universe you might ask? what caused the beginning of the universe? what was before the beginning of the universe? and that´s the twist: the last question is a nonsense-question: it´s like you were asking "what is on the video-tape before the beginning of the movie", like "what is ON the tape BEFORE the BEGINNING of the tape?" well, before the beginning of the tape there is no tape because the tape begins with its beginning. so there can´t be anything on IT, because there is no IT. same with our universe: "what happened at a time before time began?" our universe is time and space, time and space began with the beginning of the universe, so there is no "time" before that, and thus nothing CAN happen BEFORE the universe. probably we will never understand why the universe exists, because there just isn´t a reason, because "reason" is an invention of the humans. "reason is a word!"

In simple terms there is no such thing as before the big bang.

However, there are some relatively new thoughts in mulit dimensional string theory that raise some very interesting ideas about what may be outside of the universe we are able to perceive. Check the reference M-THEORY - its really cool.

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I have one question for you... what happens when someone else becomes the new frontier as you put it? I was just wondering

Well, all what I said are theories made by others, theories that I don't fully understand myself even if some points are joining my own personal thoughts about it. The only one that could answer you would be the guy who is currently on the edge of our universe... if such a thing does exist.

Diemkai,

indeed the fact of having more than 4 dimensions (wich is implied by the M-theory of wich you talked about) is very hard for our mind to imagine.

It's just like if an ant, able to see only the floor, was seeing the shadow of a plant on that floor and trying to figure out all the world above his head by simply seeing that shadow. The ant should first understand how light works, to finally understand what a shadow is , etc.

I have had time to come to a finer concept that, I am sure has been thought about before, but it seems to me that the creation of the universe can never be slaved... I mean that cause and affect seems to have no logical end... it is infinite. It would seem that there is no center to it. I believe that cause and affect is the only "universal" truth that seems to cut through the ideas of morality, good vs evil, purpose, and reason. I could be off on my wording of such thought but it seems that here and now (the present) is the only thing that has been given to use. It is, however, somewhat positive that no matter what life or matter would come along they are forever slaves to this concept... It is only through death that are minds are free of this relationship in which we are apart of. It is the most ironic thing about the whole concept. This brings me to that point talked about above concerning "in small terms i think you just can go for the choice that harms the least amount of people, this choice should be the "goodest". I believe this to be true, that our actions should try to inflect the least amount of harm to one another... but this is hard given the social and cultural restrants that seem to keep the masses in check. However, I feel that I know "the path" but I am unable to fully "walk the path." It seems to be beyond me... I can't quite describe it to you all... However I most give great thanks to all who write in these forums, to all that give their time (the only time we have) to state their thoughts in such a way that gives hope (illusion or not) to people like myself. I don't know what more to say... hopifully my words today can affect people in a positive manner... it's a just a small step on the path, but a step none the less.

Well, it is a way to see it, an opinion that I respect since I have seen much worst opinions that "not being harmful to others"

Unfortunetly, what we feel seems to be irrelevant to what is real (I know, I am a pessimist guy) sicne we all feel differently. Hitler felt that he was right and I do hope that he was not.

Maybe that the only truth is that there is no truth. As Gödel stated in the beginning of this century, into a closed system, no theory can exist without contradicting itself. Not even that theory, wich makes of that theory the only one that does not contradict itself (since it implies that it is not true itself and ergo, confirming his own statement). Yeah, it's tricky , I know.

obeyan wrote:

However, I feel that I know "the path" but I am unable to fully "walk the path."

i know exactly what you mean

These were some wonderful discussions. I enjoyed them very much!

Some extra thoughts: on the CAUSALITY concept, what about the energy & thoughts that all that have gone before generated into the cosmos, universe? Since we don't know all the answers who's to say what cause those very things have. Who knows, maybe even some of the thoughts & evolution of thoughts by humans have come from SOMEWHERE, & also many things may be metaphors for other things in 'reality.' For instance, when one dies, who knows what happens to the resevoir of thought or the psychic energy (perhaps is just gone), maybe there is a 'soul' & perhaps it's essence becomes a part of the cosmos in some form, like say a 'hell' might even be, becoming a part of the sun or other fiery hot mass. That's just one example & purely imaginative, but is something ponderable.

Also, perhaps our human minds are influenced by what's been built up in the past, the collective unconscious so to speak. Maybe those essenses, & such things that some 'feel' are even imprinted onto their previous residences or objects, etc. Perhaps there is, at least for humans, a collective yes & no, good & evil....that also may exist because of some deeper foundations that would also be very scientific if we knew how they worked. Perhaps LIFE & us humans are the very vessel needed by Nature, the Infinite Intelligence, aka 'GOD'....that is a MUST, a needed dimension for the Grand Plan, the Great Adventure to evolve & continue.

There probably is a reality of GOOD & EVIL, RIGHT & WRONG (perhaps alot in very grey & variable areas) that actually also has a fundamentally scientific & mathematical foundation...just that is not for us to see easily, etc.

I do believe that there is TRUTH & that the 'TRUTH' IS regardless of whether we see it or not, understand it or not, or may not even know it exists at all, & whether we act on it or not, or whether we believe it or not....it IS. (Period)....& exists & is real.

Some things may be very hard to define as truths. The best we can do is try to define some things as best we can as a practical truth for us, for human beings to grasp & use. The concept of GOD is a very broad, general & hard one to define & is why causes such uproar & debate....but there is 'something' that exists & we call 'it' GOD....whatever it is. I do think that INTELLIGENCE is derived from whatever that is & it does reside in some form or fashion in EVERY THING & ESSENCE.

Is funny; we aren't made to understand some things. (Out of our grasp, hence the need for FAITH, etc.Faith & belief the lubricant on evolution & social change....even over the unfortunate broken bones of many)

Change is also a constant....& there's a Force(s) behind it all.
Things known & unknown. And the whole is bigger than the sum of it's parts....& everything's in constant flux, motion & work.

Religion probably has done more good than anything even w/it's human malfactors & great evils done in it's name in the process. It's been an inherent part of human civilization evolution & the best thing about it is it's generally meant for the search of 'righteousness' & doing 'good' & not to do evil. (Although was used for many other things as they say power corrupts all). It also seems the whole concept of Christianity appears to have happened for a reason & at just the right time in human evolution, probably. What better concept is there than 'Love thy neighbor as thy self!' (& of course loving 'God' is supposed to be like loving, seeking the best, 'highest' essence in us). The walking the path is the hard part. It does lay out a pretty good purpose, cause & effect though.

Who knows, w/all the string theory stuff, does give more pause to the possibility of other real dimensions, perhaps we'd call them 'spiritual' realms....that are indeed actually real.

The fact that YOU are alive, here & now....LIFE....is REAL, & says alot in itself....but it's also obvious there's alot more that's REAL too.
LIFE is our greatest miracle & we have it!
LIFE probably is THE biggest, best, most awesome MIRACLE that there is, bar none. (It's probably the very thing the WHOLE UNIVERSAL PLAN is all about) We (& possibly others) are probably the apple of God's eye! Why are WE important? Probably because where we go is where everything else will go, with us!

Did I take the Red Pill or the Blue Pill? Damn, I forgot.

Does everyone here know what determinism is? There are two forms of determinism - physical determinism and metaphysical determinism.


Physical determinism is the concept that everything requires a sufficient cause and every sufficient cause requires a sufficient cause. This naturally presumes that time is one long causal chain.

The problem with this is that, as Hume has remarked though not in this way, it is a pile of shite. No such thing as a cause is ever observed in science. All that is observed is a uniformity and this does not mean that the uniformity will remain uniform in future; simply that it has remained uniform up to this point.

Even ignoring philosophers like Hume, quantum physics has shown that real chance exists on microscopic level and these random events have an effect on the world as a whole. As such the world can never be truly deterministic.


Metaphysical determinism. Another way of looking at it might be fate, though not necessarily.

Possible metaphysical views about the nature of time are as follows:

Presentism - nothing exists except the present. Anything that exist, exists now. Dinosaurs exist just as much as unicorns exist. (That is not to deny that they ever existed but simply to say that they do not exist now)

Growing block theory - The past exists but the future does not exist. Not even God can know what will happen in the future,

Here are the two types of metaphysical determinism:

Eternalism - the whole of time exists as a block. Both the future and the past exist simultaneously and time is an illusion. (This was Einstein's view of determinism towards the end of his life, once quantum physics had denied any hopes of physical determinism)

Modal realism - this is the view of a branching universe where any possibility must find physical expression. Every one of the branches exists not simply as a possible universe but as an actual universe.

Morpheus is definitely an eternalist, because it involves fate and denies chance. If he was a modal realist he would have to believe in chance and deny fate.


*takes a bow* Thank you very much

Dang is all i can say....DANG....