»Escaping the system«

I have heard many speak about the idea to the machines letting humans escape the Matrix in order to get rid of the unsuitable members of the population (those who don't choose the program). What I ponder is this: the Agents are there to stop escape, probably by killing the escapee; so why do the machines want Zion to exist at all? It would be easier to dispose of humans who have no formal resistance...
Personally, I favor two ideas: 1.This is done in order to make the one agree with them, it is a bargaining chip. 2. The machines like order, and would prefer that the human escapees were contained in one specific area.

um, I have to disagree. The agents aren't specifically there to stop people from escaping the matrix. if so they could stop a potential from escaping purley by taking over that person. As far as M1 is concerned the agents were after neo because they felt that he could give them Morpheous not that he was a potential escapee.

the architect says that 1% of the people in the matrix reject the programme

in the year 1999(when the matrix is programmed for)there would have been 5,500,000,000 people in the world...presuming there is a similar number of people in the matrix(as smith says"billions of people just living out their lives,oblivious") then 1% of those people would be 55,000,000 people

even if it was 0.1% as some people argue,it would still be 5,500,000 people

so where are they?...if zion has 250,000 people then where do the reat of the people who reject the matrix go?

As far as the movie is concerned in the matrix there are about 7-8 million people (1 metropolis) and thats it... (we only see that one big city)

but then how would that be an acceptable world for the humans that inhabit it

surely thay would find that strange...besides,smith says that the matrix was designed to mimic the peak of humans civilisation and so this implies the world as it was at that time...

Keep in mind, not all the human residual self image in the matrix are from pods. Many of those human images could be programs like the woman in red. So take those in consideration also when you do the math.

I had a similar post in this forum once about why the Agents try to stop the freed people. Here are some of the reasons I came up with. They need to control the humans who come back into the Matrix or else they'll generate too much disbelief and the system will crash. However, they want the freed Zionites to come back and free other disbelievers (to help reduce disbelief in the system) and eventually, to find the One. I'm pretty sure the Agents are programmed to pursue the freed humans relentlessly, maybe to keep up the illusion or maybe it would be too complex to ask the agents to oppress the humans, but not too much.

As for whether or not they were after Morpheus, Morpheus said that if the agents had known Neo was the One, he'd be dead (although Morpheus could have been wrong).

Anyway, to sum up, I think the Agents are programmed to relentlessly pursue anomalies and exiles without knowledge of the main plan of resetting the matrix and all that.

I agree.. The master planners are the Architect and Oracle, although it seems like agent have some control over the sentinels, but they have no idea of the master plan.

m4jor_p41n wrote:

Keep in mind, not all the human residual self image in the matrix are from pods. Many of those human images could be programs like the woman in red. So take those in consideration also when you do the math.

so you think the vast majority of the people in the matrix are just programmes...mmm...

again....why does smitrh say "billions of people just living out thier lives...oblivious"

Very interesting stuff. Oh, I do realise that Agents are most likely not aware of the master plans of the more important programs, I'm more interested in why Zion was organised... but I think I get the idea now: Zion is there to help provide an escape for those unwanted minds, which brings anoter point to mind, why can't the machines simply detect and eliminate the unwanted ones themselves?
As for the amount of escapees, 99% is probably not an accurate figure, and the escape rate does not seem to be very high anyway. Perhaps the humans are very slow at freeing minds, so many who do not accept the program are still inside, Zion simply can't help everyone. Just a thought.

To Xhadow: Good point there, I was being a little narrow minded. The Agents are there to eliminate anything unwanted, not to control the humans specifically.

...please keep in mind that the Agents were after Morpheus for the access codes to Zion...

Epoch- The escape rate, as you call it, is 1%, or about 1%. 1% of the population will not accept the Matrix and they will try to be rescued by the rebels in Zion.

To all you guys saying that the agents are not aware of master plan- Congratulations. I agree with you completely. I have always believed that agents only know as much as they have to know to carry out their purposes- try to stop rebels and capture exile programs. The Architect and Oracle have not told them, and have no need of telling them, about the different version, about Zion, about resetting and about the One. Therefore I believe that the agents really did try their hardest at capturing Neo and the others as rebels without knowing that they are essential to the stability of the Matrix. They also did their hardest to capture the Keymaker without knowing that it is essential for him to live in order to give the key to the One. I think the Architect figures that no matter how hard they try, they will not be able to defeat the One and the One will be able to rescue the Keymaker. So they are pawns in a game of his. Now please explain this to Splinty who does not believe in this.

I believe it was ONLY agent smith that cared about the Zion access code. If he can access ZION, it can be destroyed quicker, so he can get out of the Zoo he's in. He was sneaky about it, when asking too. If you notice, he never directly ask for it in the present of other agents.

Other agents do not care about Zion access code. They were originally after Morpheus, they used "thomas anderson" as a bait to get to Morpheus.

m4jor_p41n wrote:

I agree.. The master planners are the Architect and Oracle, although it seems like agent have some control over the sentinels, but they have no idea of the master plan.

hmmm....thats a proof that Smith existed only in v6.0 (Smith was not aware of Zion-cycles...)

Thats what I always believed: New agent programs are installed in the new version of the Matrix, after reloading takes place.

scientheist wrote:

m4jor_p41n wrote: I agree.. The master planners are the Architect and Oracle, although it seems like agent have some control over the sentinels, but they have no idea of the master plan. hmmm....thats a proof that Smith existed only in v6.0 (Smith was not aware of Zion-cycles...)

...but was aware of Matrix cycles?

Not sure about that scienthiest, There isn't really solid proof that Smith was only in Version 6 or in previous versions. We can only speculate. I guess we have to wait for the brothers to make a prequel to explain. It should be interesting.

m4jor_p41n wrote:

Not sure about that scienthiest, There isn't really solid proof that Smith was only in Version 6 or in previous versions. We can only speculate.

1. The Architect prefers to count from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the next (ie) Zion cycles = Matrix versions

2. Smith was desperate to get teh access codes to Zion. He did'nt know that the war is just another part of the master plan

3. Smith : "We are not here because we are free....we are here because we are NOT free"

4. Smith was not aware of the failed second matrix

So my conclusion is that the agents are told exactly what they needed to hear. They were not told that the war is fake. If they dont know that the war is fake, they will not know about previous Zions. If they dont know abt previous Zions, then they will have no knowledge that the matrix will get reloaded (ie) they will have no knowledge of the previous versions of the matrix.

Quote:

Smith 1: That went as expected. Smith 2: Yes. Smith 1: It's happening exactly as before. Smith 2: Well, not exactly.

What about this quote from Smith in Reloaded. It shows he has knowledge of something happening as before. A previous version of the Matrix that he was involved in?

I think Smith has been in prevous versions and is as sick and tired of the repetition as the Oracle is. He wants out and will do anytihing to upset the system. This is his drive to get the codes and prematurely end Zion thus upsetting the delicate balance the Oracle has put in place before the one emerges. This shows he is also aware of the Anomaly.

The agents are a policing program designed to get rid of any unwanted element of the Matrix. rogue humans and programs are their target but rogue programs are a higher priority demonstrated when the Keymaker becomes the prime target over the humans in the freeway chase . They are also a way to suppress human activity in the matrix so they dont run rampant.

Humans are not killed when the leave the matrix because zion is needed as a system of control for the one when he emerges. Without Zion the one would have no system of control guiding him as the machines want and he would bring the matrix to an end.

Starbuck

In your above post Starbuck, you said that Smith was tired of the cycle like the Oracle and wanted to break free. Does this mean that you do not believe that the previous Ones had a `balance'? Menaing an agent which had the powers which Smith had in Reloaded. Just wanted to see where you stand on this issue.

I agree with ya, starbuck. There are more evidences that points to Smith being in previous Matrix. It would be messy to prove the theory that Smith is only in Version 6. May be a prequel would answer the question..

When Smith refers to before, I always assumed that he was making reference to his previous meetings with Neo. Earkly in the second film, the other agents are easily defeated by Neo, which happened to Smith once, and also must have happened to other agents during the six months of Neo's freedom...

Quote:

Does this mean that you do not believe that the previous Ones had a `balance'? Menaing an agent which had the powers which Smith had in Reloaded. Just wanted to see where you stand on this issue.

No I dont. I think this is the first version of the Matrix where a Smith of this nature appreared. I think Smith existed in prevous versions but never gained the powers he did in this last one. The agents are a policing program designed to keep the matrix stable by controlling unwanted entities in the matrix. Just as every aspect of the matrix is forwarded from one version to the next so are the agent programs.

Quote:

May be a prequel would answer the question..

That would be most excellent and I agree.

Quote:

When Smith refers to before, I always assumed that he was making reference to his previous meetings with Neo. Earkly in the second film, the other agents are easily defeated by Neo, which happened to Smith once, and also must have happened to other agents during the six months of Neo's freedom.

Quote:

Smith 1: That went as expected. Smith 2: Yes. Smith 1: It's happening exactly as before. Smith 2: Well, not exactly.

I dont think Smith is referring to a himself in a previous encounter with Neo. Smith is talking to himself when he makes these statements so it obvious he is referring to something other than a simple agent encounter. When he says "before" he is referring to a previous version of the matrix where the anomaly is bieng guided back to the source through a series of carfully planned events. When he says "well, not exactly" he is looking at himself and referring to the fact that he has newfound power and so is a random element in the matrix that has never existed before. I also think that he is referring to the fact that in previous versions of the matrix he was never killed by the one. The details of each version are not as important as the ultimate outcome of the one being led back to the source.

So each version of the matrix had to play out a bit differently which means it is not set that in previous versions of the matrix the interactions between Smith and the one played out exactly the same. Maybe in the hallway Smith ran away in prevous versions. But just as Neo began to believe, so to did Smith begin to believe that he could defeat the endless cycle and free himself from the Matrix. That is the reason he stayed and tried to fight Neo this time. This change in Smiths behaviour sent him on the inevitable path to enlightenment in parrallel with Neos path.

Thoughts?

Starbuck

Starbuck, Do you think this is the first time that Smith copying himself has happen. Is that what he's refering to when he say' Well, Not exactly" ?

Thats exactly what I was going to ask. And do you think he knew that Neo would jump into him at the end of M1 and corrupt him?