»Seraph's story (SPOILER...DONT READ !)«

bachsoffice wrote:

I would disagree with the statement that you should ignore the obvious with the Wachowskis.

I mean ignore the obvious explanation (not the obvious quote). For e.g. most of the guys would have thought "did you always know" referred to the obvious explanation that it refers to the end of the war. I think it refers to someother (which I posted earlier)

bachsoffice wrote:

you have to include the answer (or else it's out of context): Oracle: Oh no. No, I didn't. But I believed. I believed

It can be interpreted as "I did not "see" the events, but I HOPED it would end up like this".

bachsoffice wrote:

guess in your structure, it would make sense if he fought Smith between lines 3 and 4 while he's in the service of Merv.

I agree, Seraph could have fought Smith when he was working for Merv. (We know that Merv's henchmen do fight the agents as shown in M2. The ghost twins fought the agent.)

bachsoffice wrote:

What is "that which matters most"?

Seraph is with the Oracle. So I think that Seraph agrees with the Oracle's notion of what matters most. If u agree that the Goddess of Second Renaissance is a conceptual representation of the Oracle, then "Thus a newly refashioned symbiotic relationship was formed between two adveraries" and "May be there be mercy for [BOTH] man and machine for their sins" means that the Oracle wants the humans and machines to come together. So, in my opinion, "What matters most" is the symbiosis. That is, the matrix must be protected so that both humans and machines can live in peace. The exiles (Merv and co.) want to destabilize the matrix. (exiles are anomalies too in my opinion). So Seraph protects the matrix by fighting Merv.

bachsoffice wrote:

how was Seraph deprived of his purpose?

we can only speculate for this part. My guess is that Seraph had an initial purpose. I think this purpose has something to do with the myth parallel. (like him protecting the tree of life). He could have failed and he was probably saved by Merv. Another possibility is that the machines have found an alternative for what Seraph was doing initially. Just wild guesses...may be we have to wait till april when the game gets released !

m4jor_p41n wrote:

Both him and persephone seem to understand alot about human psyche

In my opinion, Merv and Pers were initially created to understand love (I heard Monica Bellucci's interview that Persephone was once a part of the system who could feel emotions but no longer could). Possibly it was Oracle who created them or atleast she supported their creation. Like Sati, love programs have no purpose and they faced deletion. So the Oracle smuggled them into the matrix (just like she helped Sati). But Merv and Pers mutated into rogue programs.

One more question. We see the henchmen in pairs. (Like the ghost twins and Cain and Abel). So is'nt it possible that Seraph had a brother ? If Seraph is "the prodigal son", could'nt there be a "good son" ?

Another question... why do they refer to Mervongian as THE Merovingian. We would'nt use THE to refer to a name, would we ? So does "THE Merovigian" refers to a role and not a name ? Any myth explanation for this part ? I heard ppl say abt "divine blood line" etc. ?

m4jor_p41n wrote:

Unless previous Smith became rogue also in previous versions.

Well, if Smith is a rogue in previous version (I dont believe that he existed in prev ver), then Smith will continue to be a rogue program in the 6th version. Means that he'll NOT be working as a good cop. "Rogue" program means that he'll do something harmful to the system. But we saw Smith as a good cop in M1. So Smith could'nt have been a rogue program in previous versions.

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Another question... why do they refer to Mervongian as THE Merovingian. We would'nt use THE to refer to a name, would we ? So does "THE Merovigian" refers to a role and not a name ? Any myth explanation for this part ? I heard ppl say abt "divine blood line" etc. ?

I think it refers to him being the spirit that the Merovingian kings were the incarnation of. There's a comic book by Matt Wagner called "Mage" where the character Kevin Matchstick is the incarnation of "The Pendragon" and he relives a modern-day King Arthur story. I think "The Merovingian" is similar.

The Merovingian kings are tied in with the Free Masons and secret society. I think that's what "the Merovingian" refers to. He's the keeper of secret knowledge, ancient knowledge like the exiles and who knows what else. So I think he couldn't just been one of the kings like Clovis or Merovee, he had to be "The Merovingian" spirit, the essense of secrecy. It still holds true to his "devil" characterization also. I think the Merovingian is supposed to conjure up an image of knowledgeable, secretive (almost conspiratorial), diabolical, and sinister. Representative of secret society and the underworld and even old mythologies. I bring up "ancient" and "diabolical" because that's the first thing we ever hear about him, that he's "old" and "dangerous". That and he's french. . .

You know it's been a while since we've analyzed good ol' Merv

Right. Good observations of Merovingian, bachsoffice. There is one thing I'd like to add. The Merovingian kings were in charge of guarding the Holy Grail which lead to the ascension into heaven. Similarly, the Merovingian guarded the Keymaker who provides the access (tools, keys) into the Source (or so we think) which can be the best discription for heaven.

Of course then the door doesn't lead to the Source but to the Architect's chamber.

To scientheist- So is it official? Will there really be a game on Seraph? Coming out in April? Where'd you find this? I thought Matrix Online is coming first.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

To scientheist- So is it official? Will there really be a game on Seraph? Coming out in April? Where'd you find this? I thought Matrix Online is coming first.

I agree with the holy grail/keymaker idea. In fact, I think Starbuck had a thread discussing that idea. This fits in with the Merovingian's keeper of secret knowledge concept. Does anyone know if the Free Masons claim to keep the holy grail? I'm thinking that the Wachowskis are making a huge reference to the Free Masons with the Merovingian. Like they would have called him "The Free Mason" but that would have been too obvious. Are the Wachowskis Free Masons? Of course, I'll probably get assassinated for asking that question.

Actually, though, conspiracy theories aside, I think that if the Wachowskis were Free Masons it might explain a lot about the unexplained references in the movie because there's a lot of mythology in the movie that those Free Masons reference too. Just a theory. . .I think I hear footsteps. . .

Hey, I know I'm getting way off topic here, but I just found some really cool stuff about freemasonry on the internet.

-They call God "The Great Architect of the Universe"

-Lucifer (Merovingian) is some kind of god, and he is the keeper of Lost Keys (keymaker?).

-There is someone or something important called the Source of All Light

-On numerous websites, i kept seeing the terms Architect, Source, Lost Keys, Osiris, Zion over and over again

Anyway, I'm not sure how secretive the freemasons are but there seems to be a lot of relevant stuff in the Matrix movies. Does anybody know a lot about freemasonry? I think we're missing a big angle on the Merovingian (and possibly the whole movie) with this stuff about freemasonry.

Those are the people who sculpt rocks for free ... right?

Haha. Very funny major.

Anyway, I didn't know that Starbuck had a thread on the Keymaker/Holy Grail analogy. Does anyone have a link? I'd like to see it.

To scientheist- No, the link doesn't work for me either. But tell me if you know something I dont.

Bachsoffice- Ya, I knew that the Masonic name for God is the Great Architect but not the other stuff. Interesting other connections you have made to Free Masonry. I thought the Wachowskis were Jewish. Either way, do you want to start a new thread on this?

Akshat Gupta wrote:

No, the link doesn't work for me either. But tell me if you know something I dont.

The producer said that "the boys (WB) have come up with this story (Seraph's)". The game was meant to explain Seraph's story. If I remember correctly this story was made to explain "you my little judas" quote of Merv. They said that the game will be released this summer. The producer also said that they have no idea of making another Matrix movie. (hmmmm....we are already confused enuf with M2 and M3...do u want another ?)

Thankies

Free Masons...thats an interesting thought. Are the free masons good guys or bad guys ? (Hope u guys will elaborate on that...)

But what do u think Merv's initial purpose is ? Is Merv acting to his assigned purpose or has become rogue ?

Rogue dude. Of course hes an exile.

This is a really great thread; I have not posted on these boards but once, right after Revolutions came out, and I said I would come back once I formulated some thoughts... Well, I have, but I am afraid it still is sketchy, and I suspect it will be for some time. There is much yet to learn.

Freemasonry began long ago... W.A. Mozart was a Mason.

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"We know that Mozart valued his Masonic affiliation not only from allusions in his letters but especially from the serious quality of the music he wrote for ceremonies in 1785 and for a Masonic cantata in 1791 (K. 623), his last completed work." - from the text A History of Western Music, by Donald Jay Grout and Claude V. Palisca, considered by many to be the premiere textbook for music history.

Mozart's opera, Die Zauberflote (sorry no umlaut) or, The Magic Flute, is thought even to incorporate some imitations of actual Masonic ceremonies and rituals.

Fact: Freemasonry most closely resembles the ancient Mystery "cults," which began as long ago as Ancient Egypt, at least, and through secret societies like Freemasonry, Order of the Priory of Zion, and many others of some conjecture, still exist today, though probably not exactly as they were.

Fact: Gnosticism is very reminiscent of the Mysteries. Many parallels can be drawn, and in fact, a theory that the Gnostics were actually the very first Christians, and they invented the Christ myth as part of their version of the Ancient Mysteries is very convincingly put forth in the books, The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Tim Freke and Peter Gandy. (I highly recommend them!)

Fact: The Matrix is based (at least in part) on Gnostic ideas and traditions.

The connection, to me, is obvious.

As for the Masons being goodies or baddies, that too is a matter of conjecture. It often depends on whether or not you are talking to a Mason... or to a conspiracy theorist. They do a lot of charitable things, but their whole secrecy thing does little for their image.

I like all the ideas about Seraph being a guardian of the Machine God, or perhaps, of the Merovingian. The real question is, how deep is his connection with the mythology? It might be that he is just an incidental character, in which case, he will be able to have quite a malleable story arc, provided only that it does not contradict anything else in the extant Matrix matter. If he is more important, then he has a definitely plotted story already, probably similar to some other mythic character from Greek, Egyptian, Judaic and/or other myths. Either way, it ought to be a good time!

Anybody heard anything about a rumored Matrix MMO game?

I think a stronger indication of Mozart's freemason roots are all of the musical works he produced for freemason ceremonies! (music history major here).

As for Seraph something I think that needs to be cleared up...Seraphim are not angels. Seraphim are the highest order of heavenly beings, angels are the lowest. Just a matter of using exact language.

A few other things about them...
Seraphim are very humble, they spend all day singing praises to God (it is they that sing the "holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, heaven and earth are full of thy glory). They have 6 sets of wings and 4 faces. They are the guardians of the throne of God. In addition to gaurding the thrne, they were also the ones posted at the entrance to the garden of Eden whan Adam and Eve were cast out. So perhaps "I protect that which matters most" could be a reference to this...if infact the first Matrix (ver. 0.1 not ver. 1.0) were perfect, perhaps Seraph gaurded a particular area of the Matrix 0.1 that humanities imperfection would have caused system crash. Perhaps...who knows.

It is interesting that the Brothers have avoided any direct mythological implications. We KNOW some of the names of the Seraphim, for example Lucifer was said to be the most beautiful of all Seraphim, so we know Lucifer. Michael was not, he was an Arch Angel (an order of heavenly beaings just higher than angels), Raphael was also a Seraph, and a few others that we KNOW (most of them come from the catholic bible). So, the Brotehrs could have easily given Seraph a significant name in the realm of Seraphim, but they didn't.

They probably did this so they can have a field day writting him a really interesting story. They don't tell us enough to give us any concrete knowledge of Seraph, we know he has ties to Mero and Smith, but we don't know exactly what those are...so the Brothers are free to write just about anything they like.

Perhaps the Oracle bought Seraph's freedom from Mero...is we view Mero as a slave trader of sorts then Seraphs penance for the Mero freeing him would be endenture servitude...so the Oracle may have stepped in on that servant hood.

Seraph couldn't have been a previous One...he's a program, programs cannot be the One. Also, the phrophesy says that "before he died" indicating that the previous One had died, if Seraph were a One he too should be dead at some point, elmininating his presence in the Matrix. It's interesting though that Seraph calls the real world twice...once in the game and in Revolutions...why does he call? and how does he know? I haven't eplored the hacking part of the game yet so I'm not sure if there are more messages from Seraph...we'll find out...

I haven't heard anything about a game based on Searph, but if it came out I'd be right there in line to buy it. I HAVE heard about the Matrix online game...I've seen the trailer for it too...it's going to be very impressive. It's interesting that it takes place after Revolutions...appearantly man kind is divided into factions, those that accept the program of the Matrix and those who do not, and it starts a cival war of sorts...at least thats what the rough premis is...I think...It's going to be in monthly installments, with episodes and "missions" written BY the Brothers (so it will be cannon, unlike some of the cartoons and the comics). From the looks of the trailer it's going to be a very complex game with a LOT of fighting...the fighting moves and positions in TMO (the matrix online, hence forth) will be MUCH greater in number and complexity than those in ETM...I look forward to seeing what happens with it.

And I hope they DO more with Seraph. He's one of the more interesting characters (pribably because he IS so enigmatic).

Sorry, I missed the quote from Grout...so yeah, what he said. Grout is the fundamental survey of music hsitory, there are of course more specialized music hsitory books that are more important in their given area. Grout is general, but accurate. I Definatly reccomend reading Charles Rosens book "The Classical Style"...very good book. I haven't gotten to any discussion of Mozart yet (he concentrates on haydn Mozart and Beethoven, I'm still on Haydn). I'm sure he has plenty on Mozart's masonic music.

I too hope that they do SOMETHING more on Seraph. He is so interesting. I would have liked to have seen Seraph defending himself from the many Smiths in Revolutions. They could have had a brief fight scene in which Seraph fights off the many Smiths for a while but eventually fails.

interesting thoughts...

i found something interesting the other day

it described the seraphim as having 3 sets of wings connected to a blindingly shining body...anybody looked at the screenshot of neo from above being carried away at the end od revolutions...

just an observation

click on matrix pictures.pics from matrix films page 6,neobrille

The picture is VERY interesting...makes one wonder...perhaps there is more supernatural-ality in the Matrix than I first thought...I viewed it more as sci-fi...becuase in sci-fi there are explainations for things...I wonder what the explaination for this is...

i never used to give much credence to the theory of seraph being a previous "one"

but as seraph protects the oracle

and the oracle thinks that we will see neo again

then perhaps neo will return to protect sati(if the oracle is rearing her to pass on her purpose)

who knows?

Yeah the pic was from me . I would add this : every program that reached his purpose must face deletion or exile.
Once the One reloads, if he wants to live he must hide in the matrix and to do so, he must accept Merovigian conditions (so that Seraph can get through mobil ave).

Hence the fact that Seraph worked for the Merovingian despite the fact that he was a highly skilled program.

Except Seraph wasn't a One.

The way I see it, Seraph and Merv were stuck in the First Matrix.


First Matrix actually had several builds; i.e. first it was like heaven, but then it was a hedonistic paradise, sort of like Club Hell worldwisde, as the Machines kept trying to make humans fully happy, but to no avail.

Seraph and Merv could have been an early type of Agent; before the flood of Noah, Bible says that Angels lived among men. But we fell from grace.

Essentially, Merv (who could have been a human once, but then transcended his body) was building his materialistic empire at the time, founded on the principle that there is no higher truth our meaning to life and we should just seek pleasure for our senses (sort of like Cypher).

Seraph, like Neo (although he wasn't a One), was troubled; he had a "splinter in his mind" that told him that what the Merovingian was doing wasn't right. Even though he was one of Merv's biggest henchmen.

So trying to find answers, Seraph went to the Oracle. She told him about her plan to unbalance the equation, and he decided to help her.

The Merovingian and others would probably have tried to attack the Oracle after a time, wanted power, and Seraph would have defended her and fully switched sides, thus betraying the Merovingian.


***Is there anywere where we can get pictures of the entire Merv henchman gang?

I heard that theory that they come in pairs (Cain and Abel, the Twins [who aren't dead]), but there was one asian henchman that wasn't paired up, that Merv actually seemed disturved when he died. It's an idea.


What does LV mean in Roman Numerals? Le Vrai is surrounded by this emblem.

The_Necromancer wrote:

So trying to find answers, Seraph went to the Oracle. She told him about her plan to unbalance the equation, and he decided to help her.

So you think she is some sort of exile too?
I thought that unbalancing the eqaution was a purpose given to her by the machines. It is needed to guide the 1% non-accepters and the integral anamoly in the right way.

Quote:

I heard that theory that they come in pairs (Cain and Abel, the Twins [who aren't dead]), but there was one asian henchman that wasn't paired up, that Merv actually seemed disturved when he died. It's an idea.

Very good and interesting observation!

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What does LV mean in Roman Numerals? Le Vrai is surrounded by this emblem.

It means 55 if I am correct. Another suggestion that he was the first predecessor of Neo.
But then your theory of him being stuck in the very first Matrix isn't valid anymore.