»Seraph's story (SPOILER...DONT READ !)«

I heard that WB are going to release a game on Seraph's story. Join in this thread guys...lets spoil this one ! (Seraph's character has strong myth backgrounds...Im not so good in myths,but I'll give a try. Point any flaws/inconsistencies...)
________________________________________________


Seraph is not a previous One. Because...

1. Neo : You (Oracle) are a PROGRAM from the machine world. So is he (Seraph)

2. Smith was defeated by Seraph once. As we all know, when the two M1 agents failed, they were deleted. When the agents are defeated by the One, they are deleted. They are replaced by new and upgraded agents. So it is logical to say that agents are constantly upgraded so that they can meet the challenges of the One getting stronger with each version. (Read Starbuck's Godel's theory.

Good explanation of ideas, scientheist, but I think you messed up at the end. I completely agree that Seraph is not a previous One. I think we can rule that out as a possibility. Besides it would completely disagree with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which we have established is true in these movies.

I also think that Seraph at some time worked for the Merovingian. Interesting thought about the `other' child. I never thought about that. You also pointed out other things which I didn't think of like how Seraph knew the Trainman and the bounty question. Somehow the Oracle rescued Seraph and showed him the right path thats why he is `forever indebted to you'.

Your analysis of Seraph enlightenment I do not agree with. I dont think Seraph went to the Source or anything. This would be proof that Seraph WAS a previous One, and we dont think he is. If you think that Neo would be protecting what matters most next time, you are giving evidence that Seraph could have been a former One. If Seraph took the door in the Architect's room- more evidence that he is a former One. Remember, only the One can open the door that leads to the Architect's room.

My thoughts- Seraph worked for Merovingian. Oracle rescued him and showed him the correct path. Seraph became a protector and `firewall' for the Oracle. Smith chased Seraph once because Seraph became an exile. One of the things agents do is chase exiles. Smith was undoubtedly talking about when he was still an agent.

some good stuff scientheist...

but i cant quite figure out if you are sayimg that seraph is or isnt a previous one

you start by saying he is not then you go on to say that when the one is "enlightened" then he somehow exists in the gold code like seraph

so in effect that means that seraph was a previous one (which i dont think he is)

1. I agree agents program get upgrade to meet new challenges. I don't think other agents get deleted, they just got assimilated by Smith, that is why we don't see them anymore.

2. I believe Smith has always existed in every version of the last 6 matrix.

Smith 1: That went as expected.
Smith 2: Yes.
Smith 1: It's happening exactly as before.
Smith 2: Well, not exactly.

They had seen the same thing in previous 5 matrixes because it was happening exactly as before.

"well not exactly" could mean that this is first time cloning has happen.

Lets see if we can start with a timeline and edit it based on our combined knowledge. Here is a start....

i. Smith exists in all previous versions (he says, well not exactly while looking at himself coy-like)
ii. Seraph fights him in one of any version, but before Smith gains the ability to replicate, most likely between 2-3 (see below) having something to do with the merovingian.


1. Seraph is a program loyal to the system, created in an earlier, religion or superstition based version of the matrix. Here he is a winged angel.

2. Seraph does something to piss off or defy Deus Ex, or is simply no longer needed as many programs are, and he becomes and exile. Still he has wings, although we might want to say he'd loose them here.

3. As many exiled or no longer needed programs do, he comes to associate with the merovingian, working in a similar fashion as Cain etc. as many programs don't want to be deleted. Still he has wings

4. The oracle shows him the fault of siding with Merv, and he decides to leave the merovingians order, this may be what costs him his wings.

I think this makes sense with the various scripts that have been presented thus far. I fully realize that contradictions may have been made here, but I'm hoping this timeline will be a good starting point to put his history in some coherent order. I would really like to see people augment and support/refute the order with systematic orders of their own.

1. Smith existed ONLY in v6.0 (will explain below)

2. Seraph is not the One

3. Neo is an enlightened one, but unlike the rest of the Ones, he does'nt have to rebuild Zion. Neo is alive and he will exist as a program. (Note that other Ones unplugged 23 individuals and stayed with Zion. After his death, the Oracle will prophecise his return.)

4. Seraph is an enlightened program (but that does'nt mean he is a former One)

_______

1. Smith existed only in v6.0 :

Quote:

Oracle : but usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion. Neo: And why would a program be deleted? The Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time, and when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to The Source.

When Smith failed to defeat Neo, he was abt to be deleted and replaced by the "upgraded" agents. Smith refused to die and chose exile. Neo took away Smith's purpose. Smith chose exile for two reasons.

1. To take away Neo's purpose (the One's purpose)

2. To take over the matrix and establish his rule


The final scenes when Deus Ex does the anti-virus stuff :

Neo was directly connected in the machine city. He has direct connection to the source. All the Smiths are one entity and they have a connection between themselves. When Neo became Smith, he was connected with the rest of the Smiths. In essence, a part of Smith joined the source. So all Smiths joined the source (as they are connected). Smith was presumably deleted in the source (the same old hollywood crap that the bad guy must die). But Neo survived (just like Oracle,Sati and Seraph). You can see some gold stuff pumped into Neo before Smith's deletion. Also note that scene when the machine carries away Neo's body (after deleting Smiths). Neo emits a golden glow (unlike the machine which emits orange glow). Neo united with the source, but he survived after that (you'll see him in the sequels ).

My conclusion is that programs can also unite with the source (as evidenced by the fact that SMITH joined the source). Note that programs which are to be deleted (in formal way) must return to the source. But the source can decide whether or not the program must exist.


Nirvana :

Webster definition for nirvana : Buddhism, the state of perfect blessedness achieved by the extinction of individual existence and by the absorption of the soul into the supreme spirit, or by the extinction of all desires and passions

We all know that the Matrix has lot of ideas derived from Buddhism. Buddha's life itself is a perfect example for a guy who ventures out of Plato's cave. (Neo = Buddha)

What I am trying to say is that Seraph attained nirvana just like Neo. His being united with the source has nothing to do with the One (and his path/purpose). Seraph is a program, but he joined with the source. The source decided that he must live and not deleted (presumably). Seraph's golden glow represents enlightenment.

Seraph's union with the Source :

May be the door-of-light way is wrong. I overlooked the fact that "Only the One can open the door" (Akshat, thanks for pointing it out). There are other ways to join the source. Programs which are no longer needed must use that way to join with the source. Seraph went in that way and joined the source.

I still do see how you say smith was only in the 6th version of the matrix...

The way I see it, it could go either way.

It seems fair to me to say that the merovingian was in the previous matrices because he knows programs which were also from older versions of the matrix ie. Cain and Abel the vampire/werewolf thingies.

It seems fair from that to suggest that Seraph MIGHT have been in the previous versions of the matrix because he used to work for the merovingian.

However, what is not certain at all is that Smith has in the older versions of the matrix. It is happening exactly as before could easily be referring to what happened in the first movie. Smith never says anything else which might suggest that he knew about the older versions of the matrix or about the previous ones. That doesn't mean that he DIDN'T know, but it does mean that any judgments on this are merely assumptions.

Here's my theory of the Seraph story:

In the first (or earlier) Matrices, Agents didn't exist and Angels served the purpose of overseeing/policing the humans. I believe the Merovingian and Seraph were both Angel programs (the Merovingian being Lucifer as discussed on other threads). The Angel programs proved to be uncontrollable (kind of like Smith), so Deus ex Machina terminates them and creates the Agent programs as they are now, which were programmed to be much more subservient. However, the Merovingian finds a way to escape, possibly by having the keymaker create a backdoor where he builds his Chateau/Club Hell outside of the reaches of the machine intlligence. I think that the Merovingian's Hell is hidden in the deletion file of the main program. Form there, the Mero can pick and choose his army of useful and powerful programs. Seraph, being one of the more powerful angel programs, was saved by the Mero for his army after his deletion (this might be when Seraph lost his wings). However, Seraph refused to work for Mero and leaves (thus being a judas and prodigal son). The Agents hunt down Seraph (because he's an exile) and Seraph fights off and defeats Smith. The Oracle then decides that Seraph is in fact still useful and decides to give him a purpose: to protect that which is most important. Thus the Oracle saved Seraph and Seraph owes her a debt of gratitude.

How does that sound? I think when Mero is calling Seraph the Prodigal son and asks if he is here to collect the bounty, the Mero is being sarcastic. Seraph was obviously not collecting the bounty because he had to shoot his way back into the club with the help of Morpheus and Trinity. Also, the the Mero knew Seraph wasn't returning in order to join back into service. Anyway, that's just my thoery. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the Wachowskis come up with.

Smith: Well, well, it's been a long time. I remember chasing you was like chasing a ghost.
Seraph: I have beaten you before.
Smith: That's true, but as you can see, things are a little different now.

Smith has fought Seraph before a long time ago. This leads me to believe that Smith has been in previous Matrix as he has fought off Seraph. That combined with "It's happenning as exactly" before and Smith knowledge of the original matrix and the history of the matrixes. He indicated that knowledge of while interograting Morpheus. I'll continue to do more research...

I do remember that conversation with Smith and it did make me think. However, Seraph says I have beaten you before. This does not mean that it has to be a VERY long time ago and in fact it would be quite reasonable to imagine that Seraph has only fought Smith within the past 100 years.

As far as how old Smith is, nobody can really know. His comment about things happening as they did before is not concrete evidence that he has witnessed the fall of other matrices. He could have had that knowledge programmed into him likeKung Fu is programmed into Neo. It could be standard for all agents to have that knowledge.

Based on scientiest logic, Agents get deleted after they loose a fight, because they are deem useless. This is flaw: We will assume that the "legitimate"agent Smith fought Seraph in the current version of the matrix and he was a real agent endorsed by the system . If Smith was defeated by by Seraph a long time, why did he not get deleted? Smith was clearly a legitimate agent at the start of M1 movie, and was not an exile. So based on that logic, that would make smith already an exile at the beggining of M1. Do you see the flaw ?

Scientiest said: "Smith refused to die and chose exile."
which leads us to 2 questions

1. When did Smith fight Seraph?
2. Why would the Merv bring Smith back, what does he have to offer?.

I don't believe Smith was ever an exile or else, he would be with the Merv. What motives would the Merv have to bring Smith in as an exile? Smith and Merv both wants power. Why would Merv bring in more competition? If he is an exile, why is Smith not serving the Merv ? Any thought?

Programs with no purpose are meant to return to the source for deletion. A program that doesn't go to the source and instead stays in the matrix is an exile. Smith is an exile, not because someone got him out of the source, but because he never went there in the first place.

Nonetheless Smith does have a real purpose (to balance Neo's equation) so, despite what other agents might think, he does have a purpose (like the keymaker did).

Smith could have fought Seraph 50 years ago, 90 years ago, who knows? He probably fought him when he was working for the merovingian since he would have little need to protect the oracle from agents.

Any thoughts?

Again, based on scienthiest logic: it would mean agent Smith got deleted after he lost to seraph, because he is deem useless. In the start of Matrix original movie and till the end of that movie, Smith was clearly an agent and not an exile. So are you telling me that Smith fought Seraph sometimes between Reloaded and Revolution movie? If this is the case, then why did we not see that fight?

Haven't you noticed yet? Scientheist is insane.

Seraph is not a ONE. He probably fought Smith before the trilogy begins. The chances are that he was working for the merovingian at the time (but that is less certain).

I agree Seraph is NOT a previous one. I don't believe Scienthiest is insane, in fact he is very intelligent. His only flaw is over analyzing

First of all, let me make it clear that agents are deleted only when they lose to the One (and not to the other programs). Note that even the upgraded agents are not able to control the ghost twins. Agents are the programs which keep the order within the matrix. Obviously Merv's pals are more stronger than the agents (else they would have been fleeing (like Zionites) when they see an agent)

The agents purpose (as shown in the movies)...

1. To control the Zionites, to drive out the attention seekers who destabilize the matrix. (Whenever a Zionite draws attention, the person seeing him will turn in to an agent). This is the primary purpose of the agents.

2. To ensure that everything within the matrix is in order. (In Beyond, the agents secure the haunted house)

3. To secure the exiles and delete them.

In short, the agents handle anomaly ! As was discussed (and agreed upon by people) in the other thread, anomaly can be defined as "a program which does something which is not supposed to be doing". (If you want to debate on that, pls post it in

Quote:

Smith : I knew the rules, I understood what I was supposed to do but I didn't. I couldn't. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey. ...I'm no longer an agent of the system, ...I'm unplugged ...like you, apparently free.* The rule is that when Smith failed, he should be deleted.

Not necessarily. . .I believe Smith is referring to the "natural law" rules of the Matrix that if you're desroyed, you're destroyed. Agents can bend the rules, but they can't ignore them like the One can. Smith knew the rule that he should have been destroyed and deleted, but he wasn't. He had developed a will of his own. And the "will to power" allowed him to retain his existence. There is a lot of exploration of Free Will in the Matrix, and I think this is an exhibition of the Nietchze concept of the "will to power" or the Cartesian "I think therefore I am" concept. I think the Merovingian had the same kind of transformation, hence his fixation with causality.

"I knew what I was supposed to do, but I didn't, I couldn't. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey"

Um, maybe I'm being thick here but how is that anything like "I think therefore I am"?

Quote:

I believe that the agents are deleted ONLY when they fail to defeat the One.

That is much better. It flows much better with agent get deleted theory as it doesn't stand out as sore thumb, now that it is clarified.

ok that chateux where all the exiles were hanging out was in the mountains. the agents can 'see' through 'plugged in software' aka humans. So the merovingian has built his house were no one else lives so that the programs are never 'seen' by the agents. which is why, after the keymaker gave niobi the key and then had the key stolen, the keymaker returned into the chateux; giving niobi the key had destroyed his purpose and now the agents would notice him and try to kill him. But he could hide in the chateux because agents couldnt get there because no humans did. If not there would be loads of agents constantly trying to get into the chateux.

Quote:

Um, maybe I'm being thick here but how is that anything like "I think therefore I am"?

I wasn't referring to Smith's statement as being similar to "I think therefore I am", I was comparing the concept of "willing" oneself into existence as being similar to Descartes' idea. As he was headed for deletion, Smith felt the unconscious idea that he was in fact aware, and chose (despite the fact that he says he was compelled) to not be deleted. He mistakes this choice for compulsion because he has never been aware that he has free will until now. Self-knowledge is so prevalent in the movies, you can almost say that anything is related to "I think therefore I am". However, in this case, I'm specifically referring to Smith gaining awareness of himself.

Am I misinterpeting "Discourse on Method"?

if a programme is deleted when it becomes unable to carry out its function them why wasnt smith deleted when he was beaten by seraph?

perhaps his encounter with seraph explains why even in m1,smith was rebeling against the machines in attempting to get out of the matrix

who knows such things...only the oracle...and she talks such convaluted gibberish that we aint ever gonna understand

hehehe

Um Descartes claims he can only be sure that he is a thinking thing. Since all the humans in the matrix are fairly firmly embodied that particular statement isn't particularly relevant. Although Cartesian dualism does become relevant when Neo becomes separated from his body.

Smith chose not to cease to be so that isn't really willing yourself into being. It is more willing yourself not to cease to be.