»Hinduism in the Matrix«

Fatpie42 wrote:

matrix site philosophy section article called "wake up! gnosticism and buddhism in the matrix"

I've read it and I can recommend it for everybody who hasn't seen it yet and is just 1% interested in the matrix!
Especially liked the "poem":
If this is, that comes to be;
From the arising of this, that arises;
If this is not, that does not come to be;
From the stopping of this, that stoppes.
(which you will find in the article under buddhisme). In this case "that" is the Matrix, and "this" is the human belief in the Matrix. Without that there is no Matrix. Then in buddhisme our world / the matrix is called samsara (right?).
... Anyway that got me thinking, because isn't the Matrix just a program that runs all the time? Where plants, weather etc is programmed? Or does it really take the belief from the people to keep it going
Anyone who can sort that out?

i dont think it takes belief to keep the matrix working, because lookat what happend at the end of revs. the matrix still exists, even tough nobody was told that it wasnt real. also, all the smiths didnt belive it was real. they knew the truth. yet the matrix didnt collapse.

There is a problem with linking the matrix to buddhism because once people realise the truth and become 'enlightened' they should be safely in nirvana and nothing should be able to touch them. In the movies, even once they have realised the truth they are still endangered.

Thats why in the movies there are levels. There are levels of control- matrix and then zion. There are levels reality- both matrix and zion are considered `worlds'. And most importantly there are levels of enlightenment- escape from the Matrix, realization of the truth (in Architect's chamber), and ultimate (i think) enlightenment when Neo joins the Source.

That's exactly how I think of it too. That Zion definetly isn't nirvana cuz they're still suffering from pain and death. So the matrix and Zion are only two levels out of more and the idea of several levels must be an extension of the Buddhisme. But the life in Zion is also a good image of the way to achieve enlightenment in SOME ways; they don't own much and there are many seductive things that exists in the matrix but are out of reach for those living in Zion.
Perhabs the people living/dreaming in the matrix are like most of us, and those in Zion are like those in OUR world who have chosen to work to achieve enlightenment... Or it's not that simple.

Freemind wrote:

That's exactly how I think of it too. That Zion definetly isn't nirvana cuz they're still suffering from pain and death. So the matrix and Zion are only two levels out of more and the idea of several levels must be an extension of the Buddhisme. But the life in Zion is also a good image of the way to achieve enlightenment in SOME ways; they don't own much and there are many seductive things that exists in the matrix but are out of reach for those living in Zion. Perhabs the people living/dreaming in the matrix are like most of us, and those in Zion are like those in OUR world who have chosen to work to achieve enlightenment... Or it's not that simple.

Think "Blink of Vishnu" and you'll get it. Keanu Reeves himself refers to this in an interview. And no, the interpretation that Hinduism plays a role (a HUGE one at that) in the trilogy is not arguable, it's fact. The actor who played Rama Kandra even says as much. The Wachowskis were hugely inspired by the Bhagavad-Gita and Ramayana. The war between man and machine parallels the Mahabharata. Some of the events in the trilogy parallel the Ramayana. Merovingian is like Ravana. Neo (and trinity in Revolutions) are like Rama and Sita. When Neo says, "I know you" to Rama Kandra, it's not just because he's seen him around. It's because they are of the same essence or spirit. They're both incarnations of Vishnu, they both come from the source as well. Yes, machines have a spirit, as they have consciousness. That is a Hindu notion, and that is intimated in the trilogy throughout.

Smith also represents Shiva, and ignorance or ego since he is referred to as "darkness" which Hinduism equates with ignorance. Neo also represents Vishnu. In Vaishnav hinduism, Shiva comes out of Vishnu, like in the first film, Neo "creates" the new Smith. Smith is the destroyer of worlds like Shiva, while Neo is the preserver of worlds like Vishnu.

Um....no.

Uh, what are you disagreeing with?

Smith IS supposed to represent Shiva.

And Neo is supposed to represent Vishnu.

There are multiple things these characters stand for, but this is one of them.

By the way, here's a link to Bernard White's essay to PROVE the Bhagavad-Gita and Ramayana were huge influences in the trilogy, as if it weren't already obvious.

In Hindu scriptures, Vishnu & Shiva Relation is not same as that between Neo and smith.

Vishnu literally means, the one who enters (gets reloaded). In M1 Neo becomes aware of illusions of senses and a true love for the spirit of creation (Trinity) dawns in him. In M2 love grows and he enters matrix as a savior for love. There he is savior like Christ or Krishna (a Vishnu’s incarnation) in that sense. In the savior consciousness there is still duality. The conflict of good and bad persists and war goes on and on.

When the love matures and breaks all the boundaries of exterior form and attributes, that state is referred as Shiva consciousness. Where as Smith stands for ego with ‘me, me and me’ attitude, Shiva consciousness is the one in which ego(smith) is utterly destroyed. Neo’s vision in M3 is like Shiva’s vision, where he sees divine (inner light) in everyone and everything (even beastly machines). Shiva is always depicted as meditating and at peace, even with beasts (machines). Only the consciousness that’s sees the unity and Divine in everything has ability to reach for peace. “Sh” stands for Shanti, peace + “Ava” stands for manifestation/emergence (like in Avatar). Shiva literally means peace personified. Vishnu matures into Shiva, that is their relationship. It is not same as Neo/Smith connection.

bEagle wrote:

In Hindu scriptures, Vishnu & Shiva Relation is not same as that between Neo and smith. Vishnu literally means, the one who enters (gets reloaded). In M1 Neo becomes aware of illusions of senses and a true love for the spirit of creation (Trinity) dawns in him. In M2 love grows and he enters matrix as a savior for love. There he is savior like Christ or Krishna (a Vishnu’s incarnation) in that sense. In the savior consciousness there is still duality. The conflict of good and bad persists and war goes on and on. When the love matures and breaks all the boundaries of exterior form and attributes, that state is referred as Shiva consciousness. Where as Smith stands for ego with ‘me, me and me’ attitude, Shiva consciousness is the one in which ego(smith) is utterly destroyed. Neo’s vision in M3 is like Shiva’s vision, where he sees divine (inner light) in everyone and everything (even beastly machines). Shiva is always depicted as meditating and at peace, even with beasts (machines). Only the consciousness that’s sees the unity and Divine in everything has ability to reach for peace. “Sh” stands for Shanti, peace + “Ava” stands for manifestation/emergence (like in Avatar). Shiva literally means peace personified. Vishnu matures into Shiva, that is their relationship. It is not same as Neo/Smith connection.

Actually, you're not right and you're not wrong. If you're doubting that Smith was supposed to represent Shiva in Revolutions, then you shouldn't.

First of all, Brahma is the Architect. Kali is the Oracle. Vishnu is Neo and so is Shiva. But Shiva is also Smith. The concept of duality here is that Smith=Neo too.

By the way, it becomes obvious what they were trying to go for as far as mythological purposes when you understand that Smith takes over Sati. Sati, in Hindu mythology, is a Hindu goddess created by Brahma and the other gods to keep Shiva attached to the world, so he would not lead his followers into the jungle. They were afraid that Shiva, since he had no connections to the world, would take his followers into the jungle. They created Sati so that Shiva could feel love and he would be "tamed" so to speak and actually have connections to this world. However, Shiva falls in love with Sati, but he also insults her father at a ceremony, showing he cannot be tamed. Sati sacrifices herself into the fire. Her next incarnation is Parvati.

In any case, this is somewhat what happens in Revolutions. In Revolutions, Smith takes over Sati. Sati is a program that knows the value of love, so you would assume that Smith would know it too now since he absorbed Sati. However, this is not the case as is seen when the Smiths mock Sati after absorbing her, saying "cookies need love like everything else" and then laugh.

Remember, in the original Matrix, Neo jumps into Smith, copies code into him and "destroys" him. But at the same time, he CREATES him. In Hindu mythology, out of Vishnu's navel comes Brahma and Shiva. Brahma is the creator, that's the Architect. Shiva is the destroyer, and that's Smith. Neo is the preserver of the Matrix, and hence the preserver of worlds, while Smith is the destroyer of the Matrix and the destroyer of the worlds, and this is seen in their fight against each other in Revolutions. It should be pretty obvious that's what they were going for. Yes, Smith IS Neo, so Neo is fighting his ego, but I'm talking about the mythological connections. These characters represent multiple things and there are multiple levels of interpretation.

by the way, I'm not talking about states of consciousness. I'm talking about the CHARACTERS in Hindu religion. Shiva and Vishnu are one and the same.

By the way, Neo follows the path of a yogi throughout the trilogy. First, he activates his kundalini, and he already thinks he's enlightened. He gets spiritual powers like siddhis in the Matrix as a result. He can see the future, bring objects to him just by thinking it, he can fly, etc. However, he becomes somewhat drunk on that power in Reloaded, and he becomes arrogant. His quest for enlightenment is stunted and he doesn't realize the higher truth until the end when he finally meets the Architect. That's when he understands the falseness of not only the Matrix but also of the real world, and that's when he starts transcending boundaries again, which is illustrated by his ability to stop sentinels in the real world.

By the way, up till Reloaded, Neo is in the SIXTH incarnation of Vishnu. He is Parashurama up to that point, a reluctant Brahmin warrior who vowed to wage war against the kshatriyas (or the ruling class which in this case are the machines). Neo enters his 7th incarnation in Revolutions.

By the way, yes, Neo is Vishnu, and he is also Shiva. Trinity represents Shakti and the Holy Spirit, the feminine energy responsible for activating Kundalini. It's no coincidence that when she kissed Neo in the first movie, he awoke in the Matrix and saw consciousness everywhere, because his kundalini was activated.

By the way, Neo does form a lotus at the end, one of the flowers that Vishnu holds in his hands which represents the return of Sathya (in this case, the cycle starts over with Kali Yuga ending and Sathya Yuga beginning again), and eternal life. Neo basically merges with Brahman, and also his program code merges with the Source, the machine representation of Brahman.



Like I said, different levels can be interpreted from this. I'm merely talking about the "mythological" characters, not states of consciousness that Neo essentially goes through. But basically, Vishnu and Shiva are the same representation of Brahman.

And at the end of Reloaded, Neo is asked to become like the Buddha and leave behind all things and return to the Source because of his general affinity for mankind. However, he's specifically attached to ONE person, namely Trinity. So he keeps from perpetuating the cycle and exerts some free will.

I know that Hinduism was a major influence in the Matrix trilogy. I have already read Bernard White's article. I created this thread.

What I meant my `no' is that Smith is not Shiva. Its just a no. I agree with bEagle's viewpoints. Also-

Quote:

Actually, I don't agree with the associations that were made in Hinduism. Yes, they're there (in fact, I believe Hinduism is the central religion that can be used to understand the Matrix, by its very nature, it is syncretist and therefore able to explain much of what is going on. I read in an interview that the Wachowskis were greatly inspired by the Bhagavad-Gita and that's how the Matrix came about.) Smith is Shiva. Not Ravana. It is made clear that Neo and Smith are one and the same, just opposites. It's the same with Vishnu and Shiva. Shiva came out of Vishnu, they are the same but their purposes are opposite. Neo preserves while Shiva destroys. Neo preserves, Smith destroys. Ravana is the Merovingian and Persephone is Ravana's wife. Ravana was a learned man who became very corrupt, and therefore a demon. He was the king of all demons (akin to exiled programs in the Matrix). When Trinity goes into Hell to save Neo, it's just like how Rama goes to Lanka to save Sita. Basically Neo and Trinity are also the same in another sense. The Matrix trilogy is very much concerned with duality and balance. There are a ton of Hindu connections I could make, this is just a small sample. I would say that Neo is Christ, but as the 7th incarnation of Vishnu. Or rather he is Christ-like in a sense.

I believe that this is you. Correct?[/quote]

"What I meant my `no' is that Smith is not Shiva. Its just a no. I agree with bEagle's viewpoints.

Apparently I can't argue with fools since they don't want to listen. The idea of a trinity is present THROUGHOUT the trilogy. You got the Christian trinity in the first movie, with Morpheus being the Father, Trinity being the Holy Spirt (also Shakti, Shiva's consort), and Neo being the Son (a la Jesus Christ.

Then you have the Architect (Brahma), you have Neo (Vishnu) and Smith (Shiva).

Yet, Neo and Smith are the same, so Neo is both Vishnu AND Shiva.

Yes, Smith does represent Neo's ego. That's not wrong. He represents ignorance as well, and that is why at the end, the conditions have gone so bad, that everyone is a Smith, or everyone is ignorant. It's Kali Yuga, where Neo comes in to fight Smith and keep him from destroying all the worlds (a la Shiva), and they ultimately begin a "dance" of creation and destruction, which is a Hindu concept. It's made VERY clear, that Smith is out to DESTROY the worlds, and Neo is out to PROTECT the worlds. I don't see why you're so against the idea of the Hindu trinity being represented in the movies, it's pretty obvious it's there. Just because there's one interpretation out there, doesn't mean it's the ONLY interpretation. The Wachowski Bros. have made a TON of interpretations for each character. It's pretty dense, and that's part of what I admire about the trilogy. Each character has multiple allegories, and it all depends on your perspective when viewing the films. Either you can look at it from Neo's point of view, i.e. as purely his "state of consciousness", or you can look at it as a hodgepodge of mythology from different religions.

It's no coincidence that Smith takes over Sati, who is supposed to be Shiva's consort. I've already explained this before, only fools don't seem to want to listen.

I'm not the only one that links Smith to Shiva and Neo to Vishnu. After all, Neo is supposed to have reincarnated several times, and this is supposed to be his 6th and 7th incarnation. Which is just like when Vishnu incarnates into the world to save it from asuras and to maintain a balance.

People seem to be too caught up in the whole Neo is Shiva thing. He is BOTH Vishnu and Shiva. If you consider Trinity to be representing Shakti, Neo would have to be representing Shiva. However, in the context of the Hindu trinity and the context of Revolutions, Neo is Vishnu and Smith is Shiva since Neo seeks to preserve while Smith seeks to destroy.

By the way, your outright denial that this is the case is pure idiocy at best. I didn't deny the previous poster's comments. It's merely ONE way of looking at the film, NOT the ONLY way. And it's obvious that there are a ton of different ways to look at the films, even when concerning yourself with Hindu concepts. Part of it may be dependent on how you view Hinduism itself, whether you accept the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, or just think of Hinduism in terms of spirituality and completely discard the mythology associated with it. Then, there are different sects in Hinduism, some that only recognize Kali, some only recognizing Vishnu, etc.

When Neo is like Vishnu there is still duality and Neo-Smith connection still exists. Becoming Shiva is destroying this duality. Ego is the source of me and mine feeling. As long as me and mine exists, not me and not mine also exists. In this duality war persists. For Peace, this duality has to be destroyed. Shiva is the destroyer of that ‘me’ ness. Thus he brings peace and hence the name Shiva.

Neovs, you are correct about few things in your post but not Shiva part. Just revisit story from Hindu scriptures again. Ok, here is the story…
Sati is daughter of a powerful king. The King has become too proud and arrogant. Sati falls in love with Shiva,an ascetic who meditates in the mountains (that is nothing like smith). Her father doesn't approve of her affections for him and has contempt for Shiva, but she marries him anyway and lives with him. Later, her father hosts a celebration/ritual where Shiva and Sati are not invited. Shiva doesn’t want to go if he is not invited and tells Sati that they should not go. She goes anyway but alone. There she is ridiculed, insulted and finally burnt to stake. Shiva on hearing unleashes his apocalyptic powers and dissolves the world. In new world, later Sati get reincarnated again as Parvati who also has devotion for Shiva and who later marries him again. Shiva also redeems Sati’s father and restores his Kingdome and a peace and order is achieved.

Word Sati means truth(and love) and Shiva means peace personified. The story is interpreted as "When truth is ridiculed and persecuted in a corrupt world order, Shiva intervenes to destroy the corrupt order and bring back peace and a new fairer order." Shiva(Neo) is the destroyer of the corruption(Smith)

It is farfetched to conclude that Sati, who is her beloved, is somehow given to tame Shiva. There is nothing in the Hindu scripture to support that nor the movie needs that to answer anything. In M3, in my opinion, Sati is not "given" to Smith, nor oracle and seraph. Nor Smith is shown absorbing them like he does to all others. We just stop seeing them. Ego can grow and outnumber to obscures truth, and sedate love. But once ego is defeated, truth and love reemerge again.

Shiva is highly revered principle among Hindus. He is considered as Guru of all sages and you are making a very contradictory and unnecessary assertions here. Hope you are not getting “lost in translation”