»Help needed: Religion in The Matrix«

I have two ideas on who the Gnostic God might be. The Source or the Machine God might represent it. Remember, in Gnosticism, even the true God has different aspects, and Machine Intelligence might be the communicative face of the Source. Or the Source might represent "Pleroma" which is where the True God and the different Aeons (Major Gods) reside. I've read descriptions of Pleroma that are similar to the Source. It is the place from which divinity comes and to which it returns.

The other idea is that the Human race represents thetrue Gnostic God. This has a better fit allegorically, because the Human race spawns off the machines. It also fits the symbolism of the Gnostic belief in the Divine Spark, being the soul, escaping back to the true God after one achieves Gnosis. This is the equivalent of the Humans returning to "Humanity" after being awakened. There's a breakdown of this metaphor,though, because the Machines can continue to hunt and kill humans after they've left. If the Wachowski's intended this metaphor, they should have left Zion off limits and unreachable.

By the way, Fatpie, I'm no expert on Gnositicism or Early Christianity either (or any religion for that matter, I'm just a lowly engineer). However, from what I've read, Christian Gnosticism developed with early Christianity and is very closely tied to the Asian and African offshoots of Christianity. In fact, I think that many of the early Christian cults that never panned out get lumped in with the Gnostics like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes. That reminds me of another Gnostic assertion that Jesus was just a man who carried the Divine Spirit within him like Neo carrying the Code.

That idea of Jesus carrying the divine sounds more like the Appollinarian view that Jesus had God inside him in the place of a soul.

I've mentioned some of this in other threads, but, I noticed this one, and thought I'd try to clarify a few things (if only for my own edification):

bachsoffice wrote:

Fatpie, I believe the first movie was very much about Gnosticism, but the next two movies diverge from it....

Nuh-uh. In my opinion, all three movies are modern Gnostic myth, in a cyberpunk setting.

bachsoffice wrote:

but Gnosticism is still is the central structure that is being diverged from. However, you're right, I've never found any apolcalyptic references in Gnosticism, so the threat of Smith destroying the world is completely outside of Gnostic mythology.

Smith is the opposite of Neo. Neo is The One, where Smith is Multiplicity. Right smack dab in the middle of Gnostic mythology, where syzygy is the all-encompassing idea. "Syzygy" means, in essence, duality, or, the quality of being both one and two. For many, marriage is a syzygy. The dual nature of Christ is a syzygy. The Ineffable One (True God) being both One and Many (all of us and the rest of the Universe) is a syzygy. In The Matrix, I believe that the Twins directly represent that idea of being both Two and One.

The Greek word "apokalypsis" means "revelation." Apocalypse as eschatology ("end times," id est) is not outside of Gnostic mythology; there is only the Apocalypse of John in the Bible (aka "Book of Revelations"), yes, but as I understand it, there were many other Gnostic Apocalypses besides, including many from Jewish apocrypha. The revelations that these books usually make are eschatological on the surface, but as always, hide a deeper meaning.

Smith's whole deal seems to be "purpose." I'm still not sure what he thinks his purpose is in M2&3, and I think that might be related to how it is important to the Mysteries (Gnosticism). But for Smith (the Many) to actually destroy the Matrix (the Universe), I think he'd have to take over Deus ex Machina itself. I don't think he could have gotten that far, even without Neo in the way. The Matrix would only be full of Smiths (which could, of course defeat his "purpose") but I don't think it would be destroyed by this.

bachsoffice wrote:

Also, Karma is a concept that is entirely against Gnostic beliefs and they bring Karma into the last movie pretty heavily.

Wha? To what Gnostic beliefs are you referring? Karma is central to Gnosticism, only it isn't called "karma," because that word is in a language not associated with Gnostic scriptures. What you do here in this life affects you in the next, because we are not here; the body is just a shell, and our true selves are not here. This is an important part of the Higher Mysteries, from which Gnosticism is derived.

bachsoffice wrote:

Still, Neo defeating Smith is part of his agreement to save the humans. Neo doesn't free humans from the Matrix, he just makes it possible, like the Gnostic Christ. Salvation is still something that people have to do for themselves through Gnosis/disbelief of the Matrix. Also, Gnosticism has over the course of history incorporated many aspects of ther religions, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Christianity, Judaism, even Buddhism and Hinduism.

Very, very true, except I don't agree with the last bit -- I think it far more likely that Gnosticism grew out of all (or most) of the above, especially considering the connections of each to the Ancient Mysteries.

bachsoffice wrote:

Panopticon, Answering the question of the Architect being the Demiurge, I just wrote a really long response in another thread "The Merovingian has Two Purposes in the Matrix" but I'll summarize here. In Gnosticism, the creator of the physical world deems himself to be God but is not the true god. He is called the Demiurge or half-maker or "Craftsman." I believe the Architect is the Demiurge because he is the creator of the Matrix. The analogy fits very well. The physical world is flawed because the creator is flawed. He uses Archons (Agents) to trick humans into believing in his world rather than the true world. Also, I think the name "Architect" has a triple meaning in that he is the designer/builder of the Matrix, Architecture is a term identified with computers, and Architecture is a craft alluding to "the Craftsman".

Yep.

bachsoffice wrote:

The actual question I have is Who is Sophia? I believe she is the Oracle, but she could be the Machine Intelligence as well.

Nope. Trinity is (almost certainly) the goddess (Sophia). This is easy to misinterpret when you think of a myth as a story, with characters, and plot, instead of as allegory for personal growth (initiation). In Gnostic myth, Sophia and Christ are most often either together, or struggling to find each other. She is not a separate entity. Nor is Christ, for that matter; we all are Christ, we all are Sophia, we all have to die and be reborn to new understanding in order to end the cycle of rebirth we are trapped in. That's Gnosticism, and that's what the Mysteries teach us, if we are able to free our minds and hear it.

I suggest reading The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. And bachsoffice, I have read quite a few of your posts on other threads, and I generally agree with or am enlightened by your opinions! I felt, though, that I needed to address this, even if just in order for my own thought process to complete itself.

Always learning,

*

If Trinity is Sophia then how come she dies? I know that it doesn't stop her from being Sophia, but I would like to know what it represents.

I think that Trinity is the link between the saviour and the rest of mankind. She represents his love and the way the holy spirit acts within mankind. However, at the end Trinity is used to show that all humans must die and to show the saviours distress at this.

If Trinity is the goddess Sophia then is that one of a few or even several things she represents?



It is well known that the movie uses elements from Nietzschean philosophy (Keanu Reeves was reading Nietzsche as part of gaining an understanding of the meaning behind the films). This is very different from gnosticism. It also seems that many elements tie in better with the traditional eastern orthodox interpretation of Paul than with gnosticism (which Paul described as heresy - probably unfairly). It seems to me that the matrix uses Christian theology to find the essence of religion, rather than simply symbolising gnostic doctrine.

Actually, it is quite likely that Paul's diatribes against the Gnostics were forged. Most of Paul's letters describe Gnostic principles, and never speak of Christ as having lived on earth in the flesh anytime in the recent or even distant past.

Quote:

"The great Gnostic sages of the early second century CE called Paul 'the Great Apostle' and honored him as the primary inspiration for Gnostic Christianity." "Of the 13 New Testament letters {of Paul}, only seven are now accepted as largely authentic." "Computer studies have confirmed that the author of the {'Pastoral' letters to Timothy and Titus} is definitely not the author of the letters to the Galatians, Romans, and Corinthians, which are accepted as genuinely by Paul.b" " -taken from The Jesus Mysteries, by Tim Freke and Peter Gandy

These "Pastoral" letters to Timothy and Titus are where you'll find the majority of Paul's anti-Gnostic statements. If these particular letters are forgeries, then it follows that whoever wrote them must have had reason to put those words in Paul's mouth.

To address your primary question, I did not mean to say that Trinity was Sophia, or even that Trinity represents Sophia. Rather, Trinity and Sophia represent the same or similar things.

Fatpie42 wrote:

I think that Trinity is the link between the saviour and the rest of mankind. She represents his love and the way the holy spirit acts within mankind. However, at the end Trinity is used to show that all humans must die and to show the saviours distress at this.

That's not bad. I have no argument.

Fatpie42 wrote:

It seems to me that the matrix uses Christian theology to find the essence of religion, rather than simply symbolising gnostic doctrine.

Gnosticism, in a way, is the essence of religion; the stories are not meant to be taken literally. The allegories to Gnosticism in The Matrixare (to my understanding) not allegories to the Gnostic stories, but rather to the very same things the Gnostic stories allegorically represent. I think that Trinity's death is a part of Neo's Passion, his suffering and death for the salvation of Mankind.

Then again, I may be way off. I, too, was totally bewildered by Trinity's death in Revolutions when I saw it in the cinema. I have an explanation now that I can live with, but whether it's right, I have no idea!

I have not yet read any Nietsche. I want to pick up copies of all three of the books the Wachowskis told Keanu to read -- I have a feeling it will help!

oooh do you know which books those were? I'm going to guess that it was Twighlight Of The Idols, The Anti-Christ and Thus Spake Zarathrustra - well?

(i can tell you haven't read Nietzsche. If you are English, it's generally only once you start properly reading him that you are able to spell his name. )

On the Paul thing it is actually in Corinthians that Paul points out that the body is just is not a prison for the soul and claims that we will have new spiritual bodies in a physical resurrection. This is normally seen as a criticism of gnosticism. If there's one thing the gnostics DO say, it is that the resurrection was spiritual not physical.

Fatpie42 wrote:

oooh do you know which books those were? I'm going to guess that it was Twighlight Of The Idols, The Anti-Christ and Thus Spake Zarathrustra - well?

The three books Keanu had to read "before {he} even read the script" were Simulacra and Simulations by Jean Baudrillard, Out of Control by Kevin Kelly, and Introducing Evolutionary Psychology by Dylan Evans, Oscar Zarate (Illustrator), Richard Appignanesi (Editor). This is all on the Matrix Revisited DVD, which I put off buying because it was the same price as the main movie disc, for what seemed to be nothing but special features. I finally got it as a Christmas present last year, and I am sorry I waited so long! By the way, if you look up any of these books on Amazon.com, you'll find the other two on the same page (plus some other interesting choices). Looks like other people have had the same idea.

Fatpie42 wrote:

(i can tell you haven't read Nietzsche. If you are English, it's generally only once you start properly reading him that you are able to spell his name. )

D-oh! I am ashamed.

Fatpie42 wrote:

On the Paul thing it is actually in Corinthians that Paul points out that the body is just is not a prison for the soul and claims that we will have new spiritual bodies in a physical resurrection. This is normally seen as a criticism of gnosticism. If there's one thing the gnostics DO say, it is that the resurrection was spiritual not physical.

What verse (and which Corinthians) are you referring to? I looked in my NASB and I could not find anything like what you have mentioned in 1 or 2 Corinthians; instead, I found the following:

Quote:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Corinthians, 15:42-49

The above hardly contradicts Gnostic thought. On the contrary, it describes a change from the physical to the spiritual, so that the spiritual becomes our primary nature, just as the physical is now our primary nature. Most of the rest of 1 Corinthians is like this. In fact, the "One body, many parts" passage is in this book (chapter 12) -- something which very closely follows Gnostic thought. And above all, we must remember the likelihood that these "criticisms of Gnosticism" were mostly pointed out by critics of Gnosticism! If you want to find a certain interpretation, you probably will. All you need is time and a pen. (Consider how some people would like to say the Holocaust never happened.... if they had a stronger voice, they would undoubtedly succeed in creating a schism, and possibly eventually rewrite history (which is ever written by the victorious).)

You are right. It must have been because of the way that Paul's teachings were presented to me for my A level theology course. Paul definately talks about bodies being resurrected, but he does not claim them to be physical bodies at all. In fact having tried to look for the verse I thought I remembered I noticed that Galatians chapter 5 is very gnostic in nature. It is a complete denial of the old testament Yahweh and his old laws and an affirmation of the 'freedom' which comes from Christ.

The problem with the matrix is that there are so many interpretations. I have looked at the matrix in terms of:
Berkleian philosophy
Gnostic Christianity
Orthodox Christianity
Nietzschian Philosophy
Buddhist Theology

And they all fit in with the storyline frighteningly well considering how different they all are. What do you think about this?

Quote:

The problem with the matrix is that there are so many interpretations. I have looked at the matrix in terms of: Berkleian philosophy Gnostic Christianity Orthodox Christianity Nietzschian Philosophy Buddhist Theology And they all fit in with the storyline frighteningly well considering how different they all are. What do you think about this?

I think you've just explained why the movies are so popular and why there is so much discussion about them -- they create a "meeting place" for various faiths to come together, rather than being particular to one. Thus, the story is larger than itself (just as the great other trilogies, like the original Star Wars do).

Mostly the movies to me (when I viewed them) were a hodgepodge of gnostic Christianity and buddhism, and the main themes of Orthodox Christianity can easily be laid overtop. (It's more the subtleties that carry the gnostic flavor -- but gnosticism itself is rather a blend of buddhism and Christian ideas).

I think they can be approached on a pretty broad level, though, so they're accessible to the average viewer. The movies suggest a natural progression of life (Matrix 1= birth, Matrix 2 = life, Matrix 3 = death); love drives all things but eventually we all die, whether or not we want to; part of life is learning to let go of things you love; sacrifice, not power, is what ultimately saves; building bridges and finding common ground is better than conquest.

Those things resonate with people because they're all great truths that we learn through experience.

-david[/quote]

As we already mentioned, Pauline theology drives a lot of things.

Did you ever notice this. First movie - faith, second movie - hope, third movie - love. 1Corinthians 13:13

and another cool thing is that the verse before that, 1Corinthians 13:12 is the verse quoted in the anime Ghost In The Shell!

Thummin wrote:

Quote: The problem with the matrix is that there are so many interpretations. I have looked at the matrix in terms of: Berkleian philosophy Gnostic Christianity Orthodox Christianity Nietzschian Philosophy Buddhist Theology And they all fit in with the storyline frighteningly well considering how different they all are. What do you think about this? I think you've just explained why the movies are so popular and why there is so much discussion about them -- they create a "meeting place" for various faiths to come together, rather than being particular to one. Thus, the story is larger than itself (just as the great other trilogies, like the original Star Wars do).

That's a very good point; I like it a lot. I think there is also an another explanation. Bear with me, because it is not an idea I see a lot on the forum ('course, I haven't been around very long) but it makes sense to me.

All the above philosophies and theologies and all that come from a single source, just as historians (and some philosophers and theologians, I might add) believe that all language came from a mother tongue. There was a "Mother Religion," if you don't mind the pun. I happen to furthermore think that this mother faith was the Ancient Mysteries, which can be glimpsed {I do not say "traced," for the secrecy of the Mystery cults was so complete that none of their secret teachings, to my knowledge, survives} as far back as Ancient Egypt.

Whatever the mother faith may have been, I suggest that we can come closer to finding its lost secrets by comparing the existing religions for common threads. This is, without question, one thing The Matrix Trilogy does.

Thummin wrote:

Those things resonate with people because they're all great truths that we learn through experience.

Another good point. Raises thoughts of Freud, Michel de Nostradame, and Joseph Campbell. Certain symbols are basically universal, in dreams and myths alike (and sometimes interchangeably so). Where do they come from, I wonder? Could this mother faith have been the elusive "true" faith, from which all other faiths retain some (collective) memory?

Fatpie42 wrote:

Did you ever notice this. First movie - faith, second movie - hope, third movie - love. 1Corinthians 13:13

No, I never noticed. that's damn cool.

The Birth/Life/Death thing (thx, Thummin) is another excellent interpretation of the trilogy. Interestingly enough, this also ties in with The Ancient Mysteries. The initiates often were "born again" into their new level of identity. (Hm.) Death and subsequent resurrection was a strong theme in many of the Mysteries, and Joseph Campbell noted the initiation allegory in heroic myth. It's everywhere....

The Mysteries had three levels of initiation - or four "levels of human identity." Hylic, or Sarkic, was a term for the uninitiated. These were people who identified with the body. After the first initiation (learning the Outer/Lower/Lesser Mysteries) an initiate could be considered "Psychic" -- no, they did not gain special powers. "Psychic" referred to those who identified with their personality, or psyche. When one is taught the Inner/Higher/Greater Mysteries, the second initiation is complete, and he is "Pneumatic," because he identifies with the pneuma, or spirit. The final initiation is mystical; "{t}hose who completely ceased to identify with any level of their separate identity and realized their true identity as the Christ or Universal Daemon experienced Gnosis."

These levels corresponded to the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire, respectively. Each of the three initiations required a baptism: Baptism by Water, Baptism by Air, and Baptism by Fire. (Look for this imagery just in M1! )
(my source for the above is The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy; mentioned by me before, highly recommended)

So, the trilogy might be told thus: Neo, the uninitiated Hylic, realizes that he is the One, and is transformed into the Psychic. Notice that there's lots of water in the film, especially rain. In M2, the Psychic Neo "touches the source" and his "mind is separated from his body," a Pneumatic initiation; Neo flies through the air. Finally, in M3, he reaches complete understanding of his purpose, Gnosis, the final initiation. There is more red and orange and fire in this movie than in the other two films combined (I reckon).

I think that's enough for now!