»Help needed: Religion in The Matrix«

(This isnt a theory or anything; I'm not sure what forum this belongs in so please excuse me)

Ive explored this site and has a great deal on theories, philosophy and symbols in the matrix, but not a great deal on religious allusions and symbolisms on that level. I need such information as my main focus for a major project is on the religious aspects of The matrix trilogy, but Im having some trouble finding the relevant information. Does anyone know where there's information regarding Religion / allusions / theology in The Matrix? e.g. any good sites, books, articles etc. Any help greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance.

Homenetz.com has good forums on the Matrix. One section is devoted to religion and philosophy. There are some interesting ideas there. Otherwise try searching for matrix topics in religious sites. Christianity, Gnoticism, Buddhism and Hinduism and related to the Matrix for sure. There are others as well maybe.

Here is the site:

anything at a web site called kissenger publishing, morals and dogma by albert pike the two babylons by alexander hislop, plato's the cave, then read ephesians, colosians, phillipians, in the bible when you read these books in the bible, keep in mind paul is binging new info eph. 3:2,3 and col.1:24and 25. what plato and pike wrote is the opposite of what paul wrote, but they both use the same concepts and idea's but come to opposite conclusions ie: neo and smith.

Thanks for the replies. Keep em coming

mhm wrote:

anything at a web site called kissenger publishing, morals and dogma by albert pike the two babylons by alexander hislop, plato's the cave, then read ephesians, colosians, phillipians, in the bible when you read these books in the bible, keep in mind paul is binging new info eph. 3:2,3 and col.1:24and 25. what plato and pike wrote is the opposite of what paul wrote, but they both use the same concepts and idea's but come to opposite conclusions ie: neo and smith.

Sorry Im just starting out; that was abit too complex for my comprehension I've never heard of this "plato" or "pike" in the bible before... so the basic idea here is that these people draw a parallel with the relation between Neo and Smith right?

plato wrote inthe 1500's BC, pike wrote in the 1800'sAD, of course they are not alive today. but the subjecs they had written about are similar to what the matrix film is about. plato was a not believer of the jewish religion,(1500'sBC) nor was pike a friend to christians in the 1800'sAD, but he did give the bible credit where he saw fit. there main topics of info. are the bible is a trick or a dupe, or the info is backwards not wrong as in fabricated but the character's or info of it do not hold to the same personas or attributes as it says. this is called esoteric writing (what they wrote). the bros. have used this info. to make a story line, yet future. so there is the two sides, 1. neo is a good guy from the plato/pike angle 2. neo is a bad guy from the bible point of you. smith bad from plato/pike as opposed to smith good from bible point of view, do not mix up christian theology with the bible, theology or the concepts of it are not based on the bible. pike and plato understood this. what you see in christianity today is what the bros. used for the idea of the matrix or the world that neo got out of the sentinals , smith, the architect,all are alined with the bros portrayal of religion you can see today hope this can help im really trying to keep it simple ,keep in mind there is a real person or creation in the past or according to the bros. future that you can actually read history or prophecy of and some you can see evidence of thier existance right now at this time

sorry didnt finish the last sentence In the movie I mean the character's can be found with alittle digging , they are very tangible and easily seen

heh sorry... still not 100% on what you're saying.

Quote:

1. neo is a good guy from the plato/pike angle 2. neo is a bad guy from the bible point of you. smith bad from plato/pike as opposed to smith good from bible point of view

Why is neo the good guy and bad guy from different perspectives?

Um, excuse me? From the biblical angle Neo is a good guy - there is no doubt about that. He's supposed to be Christ for goodness sake! Where'd you get the silly idea that Christ is a bad guy in Paul's eyes?

If you read 1 Corinthians and Romans and Galatians (dunno which verses) then you will find the following concept comes up a great deal:

The law does not save you from your sins, faith does. The law simply reveals sin but through Christ's sacrifice he has saved all people from their sins.

The oracle said that the architect only balances the equations and that Smith is the opposite of Neo's equation to counterbalance him. This means Smiths new powers were caused by the architect. Smith is sin revealed in mankind and Neo is the messiah who saves mankind from their sins by taking them on himself.

Neo goes through all the motions of Jesus, but in a weird order. He has a virgin birth (like all of them really), he has a resurrection, he has an ascension and then in matrix3 he has the crucifixion and the transfiuguration at the same time. (The transfiguration is a point in the gospels where Christ glows with a divine light, thus revealing himself with his true nature).

In Pauline teachings you will also see a contrast between Adam who is the first perfect man (who then becomes fallen) and Jesus who is the second perfect man who saves mankind. Through Adam all die, but through Christ all will live (there's a verse that says something like that). This is the reason why there are parrallels between the Meravingion and Neo. The Meravingion represents both Satan and the fallen Adam.

first to fatpie, I did not come up with this on my own, like I said plato , pike ,hislop they and others have been writing on this subject for 1000's of years, Im just trying to help this person out on her original question, Im not trying to convince anybody of anything! GO to amazon .com buy the book the two babylons and you will discover easily just as i have the major theemes of the bible such as God becoming a man coming down from heaven and dieing for the sins of all humanity is a very very old concept ,It predates MOses who wrote the first 5 books of the bible (around 1500bc) by about 2000 years. this fact is easily documented through archeological findings. most of these findings are simply written down, the best being the babylonian info or records, hence the book , 'the two babylons '.So with this info (the major theemes like the one listed above) a person has a decision to make if he or she wish's, do I believe what is written in these old writings or do I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God? or in other words if the bible is the inspired word of God as christians claim it is then how do thjey account for thier bible and its info predating Moses by 2000 years? This is what the bros.'s have done, they reseached thier info looked at both sides and made thier decision. Example: you say Neo represents jesus, so is the architect wrong when he said there was others? was mero lieing when he says he survived others? but ask any bible believer and they will tell you there is only one jesus and any other that comes along is considered a counterfeit or an antichrist. was morpheous not truthful when he says "Neo is theOne" but yet there are other people in Zion who do not believe in him? are these people destined to hell for not believing in Jesus? in the movie nobody ever questioned neo was the one except those people who allined themseves with him. my point is view this movie from both sides, look into the info on which it is based, then make your own decision on which side you believe is telling the truth. also go read trhe interview the bros's had in reguards to the movie and keep this in mind, they are asked these direct questions and give direct answers.example: one answer "you have no idea how big this is"

pano I hope my reply to fatpie42 helps, its really not that difficult but it is alittle strange, yes the same person can be viewed with opposit personas' example a man in the bible called Nimrod see Genesis chapters 7thru 12, according to the bible hes abad guy, but read that book the two babylons and you will discover that took on the role of Jesus ( this book has amassive amount of footnotes and documentation at is very easy to read) so again we a choice 1 is the bible correct or are the massive amounts of info outside the bible (which portrays him as savior) correct? ALL greek mythology is based on this man or you could say his persona or attributes he had. Is it correct or factual or fairytails. ( the greeks did not have a problem with it being a fact.) by the wat he is one of trhe other that came brfor neo the mero was talking about. I want to point out I in no way d I want to influence you or fatpie or anybody else on this idea, the facts are simply thereI have pledurized every bit of what I say, I simply just know the info others write down, starting with moses and ending with paul (bible) and that written by theother writers suggested ( keep in mind I have stated bible only verses montains of books by those who believe the bible is backwards.)

You seem to have me mixed up with an extremist Christian. I do not doubt that there are other interpretations possible, but the one that the Wachowskis expect seems to be blatantly a Christian one (for the most part) since they have clear image of a CRUCIFIX at the point when Neo saves the day.

What I was disagreeing with you on was the suggestion that the 'biblical interpretation' of the matrix sees Neo as bad. The writer Paul certainly doesn't see Christ as bad in his letters.

(Genesis chapters 7 thru 12 are about Noah and Abraham. What is that supposed to prove exactly?)

now back to fatpie and his other statements:
the idea of saving sins: Iwould be glad to explain what this idea means but I dont want to act like apreacher to you so will have to ask directly for this one.
adam compared to jesus: this one I like, you quoted 1cor 15:22, always keep in mind context ,
A. the church at corinth, bad church , read the begining of the letter, (incest) they are babe's, they need milk 3:1thr 5, now jump back to you verse and keep the context, In adam ALL die, this is the first fundamental begining thought of any man. In christ ALL are made alive. Now ALL does not mea ALL, ALL is a pronoun , pronoun's are predicated on nouns, or they always follow, or based upon nouns. Adam being the first noun ALL holds true, we all die, literaly, ther fore the next noun Christ must hold to the same rules, (english) ONLY those in CHRIST shall be made alive, here Paul is teaching babes the elementry main point of what he preaches. look at it this way we still use ALL this same way example: if you were to ask me what I did on newyears I would reply, I went to New years party and we ALL had great time. YOu would know you were not included in ALL nor would you assume your sister or brother came with me. See ALL does not mean ALL in english. There fore according to your theory thos e people in Zion are not Going to be made ALIVE according to Paul. Because the do not believe in Jesus (neo) and In case your wondering Paul does not Believe in a SOUL that conyinues to live after death. He believes that the only remedy for death is a resurection and that only comes thru christ, or in other words there is no life outside of christ. ( THIS NOT MY OPINION, READ IT YOURSELF) mybelief is irelevant!

fatpie im sorry I misunderstood your point.Paul does not have problem with Jesus, thats not what i meant, I agree. but what I am saying is look at the movie two ways. alot of people view the bible as adupe or the info is backward not untruthful, including the bros., this is the theory that is very very old I spoke about, but yet other view it as the truth. so in other words neo from one side is another "ONE" or from the other side he is another fake. the bros's chose to make the movie from the first, but if you find out what persons from history or yet future he is portraying it deffinitley is not Jesus, remember the bible even has a little to do with an anti christ, not as opostie but as instead of or alike the same quality's thats why he is called anti,

he
fools them, he does not oppose them in thier beliefs.
Genisis 7 thru 12 : the tower of babel nimrod and his ancestors bad, go find out why he was considered the savior of the world by dying on a cross. that is why a Jehova Wtnesses do not believe in the cross, because it is occultic.
thr cross was also in Egypttian REligion it is called the ONYX. (3000bc)
the word cross is never used in the bible it comes out in english translated from greek but the greek word is stake, no outstretched arms. being crucified was a common practice in rome but it is a way to be offered to a god other than the GOD of the bible( Remember egypt). If the bros. put a cross in the movie I have missed it , they certainly know this info, so therfore again I do not believe they partake in the biblical view. also, abraham was CALLED OUT OF THE UR, look into the UR or the chaldeans as they are also called, hope this helps

Thanks very much for the detailed responses

Is that all you've got to say? Thanks?


Panopticon, we are theologizing are asses off here and you haven't stated a single opinion....!

Say something come on, don't be boring. Please?

guys,

chk this site...its great !

Fatpie42 wrote:

Is that all you've got to say? Thanks? Panopticon, we are theologizing are asses off here and you haven't stated a single opinion....! Say something come on, don't be boring. Please?

If I try say anything itll sound like im talkin out of my ass. Frankly I know next to nothing when it comes to this level of depth of analysis of TM But I say thanks not in vain, I've thoroughly read every reply and Ive learnt from them so thanks!

I've heard the song in the background to the animation before. Who performs it? What's the song called?

As for what it has to say on the mythology of the matrix...

oops! Was gonna say the animation only states the obvious, but I've now realised that there is an entire site linked to it. Must have a look at this....

You could write a book drawing parallels between the Matrix and Gnostic mythology. I personally think that the Matrix is modeled on the concepts of Christian Gnosticism and that there are only a few explorations of other religions in the movies. Check out this site:

gnosis.org...

Also, there is a good site called 21st century radio that gives a wild expalnation of Merovingian mythology, which relates to the Merovingian character. There are excellent explorations of the Merovingian in the Matrix-explained forums. There are insightful theories that the Merovingian represents Lucifer, Adam, the keeper of the Holy Grail, etc. . .

Good luck with your paper!

I thought the first movie was based on gnosticism and started off believing that the second did, however I got stuck. What is Smith if the story is gnostic? Surely the gnostic Christ does not destroy Sin for us? I thought the gnostic Christ was simply showing us the way to gnosis?

Which one is the demiurge? Is it the meravingion or is it the architect?

Why is the true God (presuming that is what the machine God is) evil? Surely he should be pure goodness?

I'm gonna look at the link you showed now. But these are my initial reactions.

Is Tm really more about gnostic christianity than other theologies? When I first saw it, all that occurred to me was christianity, and after looking harder I found some buddhist elements. hmmm

Fatpie42 wrote:

Which one is the demiurge? Is it the meravingion or is it the architect?

Why can't the demiurge be the machine god instead? Seeing as how the matrix is a simulation housed by machines. In terms of gnosticism thats how I see it so far.

Fatpie,

I believe the first movie was very much about Gnosticism, but the next two movies diverge from it, but Gnosticism is still is the central structure that is being diverged from. However, you're right, I've never found any apolcalyptic references in Gnosticism, so the threat of Smith destroying the world is completely outside of Gnostic mythology. Also, Karma is a concept that is entirely against Gnostic beliefs and they bring Karma into the last movie pretty heavily. Still, Neo defeating Smith is part of his agreement to save the humans. Neo doesn't free humans from the Matrix, he just makes it possible, like the Gnostic Christ. Salvation is still something that people have to do for themselves through Gnosis/disbelief of the Matrix. Also, Gnosticism has over the course of history incorporated many aspects of ther religions, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Christianity, Judaism, even Buddhism and Hinduism.

Panopticon,

Answering the question of the Architect being the Demiurge, I just wrote a really long response in another thread "The Merovingian has Two Purposes in the Matrix" but I'll summarize here. In Gnosticism, the creator of the physical world deems himself to be God but is not the true god. He is called the Demiurge or half-maker or "Craftsman." I believe the Architect is the Demiurge because he is the creator of the Matrix. The analogy fits very well. The physical world is flawed because the creator is flawed. He uses Archons (Agents) to trick humans into believing in his world rather than the true world. Also, I think the name "Architect" has a triple meaning in that he is the designer/builder of the Matrix, Architecture is a term identified with computers, and Architecture is a craft alluding to "the Craftsman". The actual question I have is Who is Sophia? I believe she is the Oracle, but she could be the Machine Intelligence as well.

That is all well and good. I like what you've said.

Also it seems to me that the matrix movies aren't really about the apocalypse, but are about the entrapment of the human spirit. If Smith posesses the humans they will never escape the matrix. Smith represents sin and possibly spiritual death.

However, the one question you didn't answer was who the machine God is and why he is cruel rather than wholly good. Could panopticon be right in suggesting that the machine God is the demiurge?

Quote:

However, the one question you didn't answer was who the machine God is and why he is cruel rather than wholly good. Could panopticon be right in suggesting that the machine God is the demiurge?

I've been wrestling with that question myself. According to a few different Gnostic sources I've found, there is a true god, from the true god came Sophia (Wisdom) who was already flawed, and from her came the Demiurge who creates the world. In this view, Sophia is the Machine Intelligence. However, Sophia is generally portrayed as benevolent to Mankind trying to help souls find their way back to the true god through knowledge and wisdom. Also, Sophia is generally portrayed as a female. This seems more like the Oracle. I'm having trouble finding a perfect fit for the relationship between the Machine Intelligence/Architect/Oracle, but there are many variations on the Gnostic mythos and perhaps I'm not reading the same one that the Wachowski brothers know.

Here's another question I hadn't really thought about before: Are the Source and the Machine God the same thing? I always assumed they were, but this isn't necessarily so, is it? Are there any quotes to corroborate/dismiss this idea?

Sati's parents say "where we come from anything which does not have a purpose is deleted". Where they come from is the source I think. It appears to be the place where programs live which are not in the matrix. Presumably the source controls the sentinels so Neo can control the sentinels because he can manipulate the source as well as the matrix.

Sort of like a power over both heaven and earth I guess.

The ideas of orthodox christianity is seeming less far away from gnostic christianity the more I look into them. That is, however, only if you take gnostic views as symbolic rather than literal. Do remember as I continue writing that I am not an expert on either orthodox or gnostic doctrine so my views are based on limited studies.

According to orthodox Christianity no human may approach God because humans are not divine. Christ is seperated from God at the crucifixion and takes a human spiritual death like any human despite his divinity. It seems that the machine God has a dislike of Neo for being human, but has to accept Neo's demands because of the code he is carrying.

Maybe the machine God only seems bad because of his inability to accept the humans? Maybe he is the true God of gnosticism after all? What do you think?