»True Reality«

I doubt that very many will buy into my theory here, it is to be expected. I did, however, have an urge to throw my opinion out there to be heard. I'm actually particularly interested in the commentary of Starbuck and Scientheist (sp? sorry!) So here we go:

Mr. Anderson makes a choice to not accept what is displayed before him day in and day out as "true reality." The reason he decides not to accept what is being fed to him - just a gut feeling, the feeling that there is "something wrong with the world?" Anyways, he takes the magic pill and wakes up in the real world, ready to go on an epic journey of the self. Armed with an open mind and a fair bit of intelligence, he overcomes obstacles and accomplishes an ultimate goal through a very noble self-sacraficing act. Good story.

But...what if he woke up in the real world and thought to himself, "This doesn't feel right either...what the hell's goin' on here?" Even if it was the "true reality," and there were no higher level of reality to get to, how would he cope in the real world?

By learning that the matrix was in fact a fantasy world with rules that could be bent, sometimes broken, Neo was able to "free his mind." He was able to do things that he KNEW (previously) were impossible. He could learn kung-fu in a matter of seconds, he could jump from building top to building top, hell, he could fly around like superman. All because he believed that he was in a false reality that had no real authority asserting rules over him. "You've got to let it all go. Free your mind." Letting it all go includes letting go of all limits. Forget all the rules. Do as your mind wills.

There was no special training required for Neo to become "the one." He had the same thing that all the other people had. "You see, he's just a man..." Couldn't be more true...Why was Neo able to do things that other people couldn't then? Because his mind really WAS free. Free from all the rules. This is very difficult to explain, and I wish that we as humans had some better form of conveying what we mean...forgive my clumsy words...

Anyways, imagine if Neo freed his mind in the "real world." Imagine what could happen if he let go of his limitations, if he let go of all of the rules of the "real world." Is the power of believing that you are unlimited so thoroughly what counts for being able to do whatever you damn well please? I understand that the Matrix REALLY was a make believe world...but just because it's make believe, the rules inside can be broken? What's the difference between an artificial world who's rules don't apply to you and a real world who's rules don't apply to you?

I believe that the human mind is much more powerful than any of us will know in our lifetimes. I believe this movie is about more than a quest to save humanity, more than a journey through life and all of it's experiences. I believe that it is about truth, and the pursuit of it. All throughout the movies, Neo's mind is opened up to new thoughts, new ideas, and new abilities. I also believe that, if Neo had survived to see the peace between the machines and the humans, he would be a lot like what he was like in the Matrix...only in the real world. He would be able to fly around, bend spoons, do whatever.

It's a hard theory to buy, I don't expect too many people to buy it...hell, I'm not even asking anyone to. All I ask is that you consider the possibility seriously, think on it a bit, and let me know what you think. And please, we're all above bashing others on a forum, so none of that. I'm looking for honest feedback here. Thanks in advance for your time reading, thinking, and responding respectfully.

I think your right on... If his mind completely rejected the matrix it would undoubtibly reject any reality.

I think the point is that the REASON that he rejects the matrix is because the matrix is fake. He would not have the same problem with the REAL world because there wouldn't be a fakeness to worry about.

The fact is that the falseness of the matrix represents the fakeness people find in their real lives. One interpretation of the matrix is that the government tries to give us a false image of the world and blind us to all the things that are really happening. We can only start combating these problems if we wake up to them.

If the world Thomas Anderson had been living in were real then he wouldn't have been feeling a "splinter" in his mind. he certainly wouldn't be able to fly and bend spoons in a real world....

And why not? What was the evidence of the matrix being a fake world to Mr. Anderson? How could he possibly have had any inclination to think "Jeez, I bet this place ain't even real..." Whether or not the reality that one is in is a true reality is irrelavent. What I'm getting at is the power of the belief of a mind. So assume that the "real world" that he goes into when he gets out of the matrix really is the real world. If, for some reason, (who knows...maybe he's crazy, insane, or just a free mind) he had a "splinter" in his mind in the real world...you don't believe that he could attain the same powers that he had in the matrix? If one realizes that the rules don't apply to oneself...can't they be bent, or broken? Granted, Neo would have to believe that the real world was actually fake (call em crazy, i doubt he cares), but a fake world is a fake world to the mind. Hmmm?

One main point...

If you die inside the matrix...you die in the real world...yes? Why is this? If the matrix is only simulating your death...Your mind MAKES it real...So how powerful is the mind then? And as Neo chose not to die back in that hallway in M1, which rules do you think he was bending/breaking? The rules of the matrix that say if you die, your dead, that's it, no fixing that...or the rules of the real world that say if you die in the matrix (even though it's an artificial death), you're still going to die in the real world.

I must add to this. Neo doesnt get all these powers JUST because he freed his mind and believes what he wants to. He carries the code which is the anomoly in the system. Because of the anomoly, he can change things in the Matrix. His willpower, determination, openmindedness and love do help but are not the main cause.

Neo realises the matrix isn't real because he senses there is something wrong with the world. It's an instinct. Morpheus says "You've felt it your entire life". He wouldn't feel it in the real world because there wouldn't be anything to sense. If he did sense it then he would be sensing something that wasn't there. That'd just be silly.

To say you can bend the rules of a computer program when you are in the real world is a nonsense. You cannot bend the rules of a program when you are not in one. (Unless you are Neo and you do it from the outside that is )

Dweeb,

In order to define your theory further we need to break down your definitions and hypothesis to a more granular level. Here is my take on it.

There is the brain(body) and there is the mind (consciousness).
These are separate and distinct. I also think there are 4 levels of reality as it applies to Simulacra and Simulations and the Matrix.

1 It is the reflection of a basic reality. The orange light Neo sees beyond his normal vison. all live forms give of a form of this light. It is the most basic reality and the true form of all living things.

2 It masks and perverts a basic reality. The physcial world we live in with our physical bodies. It is a natural (nature) reality. It is a representation of level one.

3 It masks the absence of a basic reality. The green code of the Matrix. It is the basic mask of our natural reality.

4 It bears no relation to any reality whatever: it is its own pure simulacrum - The Matrix itself. This bears no resemblance to any reality and is a pure simulation.

The brain lives in the physical world (level 2) and the mind lives in the basic reality world (level 1).

Neo is evolving through the process of gaining an extended grasp on each of these realities. He continues to dig deeper and deeper into each reality and as he does so every reality above becomes pliable and able to be manipulated. The first is the matrix. He knows something is wrong. He has become aware that he is dreaming but does not know how to manipulate that envoronment. the red pill shows him the true nature of that reality and once he grasps this he is able to lucid dream and manipulate the matrix. As he is killed by Smith he struggles for a bit with that reality. He knows that it is not real but he hasnt crossed that threshold of comprehension yet to believe it is not real. Trinity pushes him over that threshold with a kiss. His realization of love for her drives him deeper and his grasp on reality becomes deeper. He can now see the next level of reality - the green code. The matrix level becomes totally unreal and he can manipulate it as he pleases. Without getting into to much detail this is a process that continues on until Neo reaches his second site - the ability to see the orange glow of the Machine life force. The true nature of the machines and their actual reality. It is their essence. the part of each being that continues on when the physical body dies.

Neo is gaining an extreme grasp on the physical world and this is how he comes to be able to manipulate the source and destroy the sentinals. It is how he can sense the sentinals and I suspect that if he had lived he could very possibly have gained the ability to manipulate this world in much the same way as the world of the matrix.

(side note here - Neo may very well have lived and evolved into a bieng of pure energy. I explain this below.)

I think Manipulations of the physical world would manifest themselves in more of a spiritual and psychical and metaphysical way as apposed to a physical way. For example I dont think he could have gained the ablity to fly. The matrix is a VR environment totally without physical form. In essence it is all mind and computer power. A non physical perception of physical reality. It is pure simulation so it would be natural to be able to manipulate that environment in such a way as to be able to fly in it. The physical world on the other hand is only one step from actual reality and bound by certian physical boundaries that apply to all pysical objects. Gravity bieng one of them. So while I believe he would not gain the abilty to fly he could gain the ablity to communicate telepathically etc. Eventually, I think Neo would have expanded his mind to the point that he could have shed his physical body and become a being of pure energy. In essence his lifeforce would inhabit a vessel that transcends the boundaries of the physical. He would be a closer representation of true reality. At this point he could have possibly projected himself as a physical being and give the impression to the physical world that he could, in fact, fly.


Thoughts?

Starbuck

i had no doubt in my mind that zion was real until watching it again yesterday...

after the sentinals start to leave zion right at the end,morpheus turns to niobe and asks..."is this real?"

maybe this is a clue from the w brothers...i dont know but it sure has me wondering...

As I have said before, I am very clumsy with wording my ideas in a way that others can understand. I can think of an idea and have a clear meaning in my mind of what I am thinking, but when it comes to putting into words, I have trouble. I'd like to thank starbuck for helping me with a few words. I would agree with you on almost all points made in your last post, especially the point of how Neo may have transcended to a post-physical form...The ability to fly is one thing. The ability to love is another. Both are similar. Flying does not necessarily mean that you have to physically fly. Loving does not require one to physically love. What matters is the meaning of the word. Love: a temporary construct to explain a feeling...an artificial word that has an attached connection. Fly: a temporary construct to explain what something is doing when it is "flying." Words have deeper meanings than most would suppose. Neo does not necessarily have to fly to be flying....

And now I wonder if that was clear...or am I being clumsy with my words again?

Thanks again, starbuck

I know that the debate over whether or not Zion is real is heated...evidence swings both ways...I just wanted to note that the scene where Morpheus says, "Is this real?" sparked the same thoughts in my mind...Could this be a sign of a "splinter of the mind?" Just wanted to add that I agreed on that point, and had just forgotten about that...thanks for reminding me!

There are many debates on the MwM. As far as I am concerned it makes no sense for a MwM to exist. Here is my reasoning behind that.

1. At the end of SR2 you see the world as it actually is. The black sky, the destroyed cities, the scorched earth. This is the exact world depicted in the real world and where Zion exists. Why would the machines build a matrix that reflected the reality of the world. It would have been easy for them to build any world since the humans have been encapsulated in the matrix for centuries, there would be no way for them to know how the world actually was or that the sky was blackened. Why not make up a different world? The answer is simple - because it is not a MwM! it is a real world.

2. There is no reason for the machines to evolve a Neo in a MwM and destroy Zion. If the machines have a complete control over the MwM why not let it go on forever? the machines could invent anything in that VR environment to keep the humans busy. why build a complex set of controls to lead the one back to the source and destry Zion. If the machines wanted to they could just unplug the MwM and shut and kill everyone in Zion with one single act. The complex interactions between machine and man are way to intricate to suggest a MwM. It can only be a real world environment.

3. If it is a MwM how far could you take this? For example, consider the following:

Neo is suddenly freed of the Matrix by morpheus and finds himself on the Nebakanezur.

(but this is actually a matrix also)

The same problem occurs and Neo frees himself of MwM and finds himself on earth with blue skies and green pastures.

(but this is actually a matrix also)

So Neo is freed of the MwMwM and finds himself in a VR program at Microsoft or Metacortechs.
The whole thing was all a simulation!

(but this is actually a matrix also)

Neo is freed of the MwMwMwM and finds himself on an alien planet with strange creatures and surroundings.
Oh man is was an alien experiment!

(but this is actually a matrix also etc and etc and etc)

This could go on forever and ever and I dont think it was the intent of the movies. It makes no sense.

It stands to reason that the Matrix is the Matrix and the Real world is the real world.


Starbuck

As you so aptly explained, in each new level of the matrices...each "creator" may have had a purpose, a reason for making another matrix...

Start from the bottom. The machines may want to study humans further, they may want to pacify them from destroying the earth, or they may just want a power source. Point being, they have a reason for making the matrix for the humans.

The lab at Microsoft, or wherever, may have a reason to control the machines.

The aliens may have a reason for controlling the technology of Microsoft.

Someone may have a reason to control the aliens.

A matrix is a form of control. As long as there is a reason to control something else, a matrix will likely be created. THIS stands to reason that everything can be controlled by something else. Everything could be within a matrix created by something else.

So who is in ultimate control? Who cares? Not me, cause I know I'm not the one controlling stuff...I'm just here to explain that control occurs everywhere...there's always a reason to control stuff, whatever it may be... So, it is then (this and only this) a possibility of existence of a MwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMwMw...(?) to exist, so long as it is possible (and exactly that, only the possibility) that only one matrix exists. If we admit the possibility of a single matrix existing, we must also admit that there is the POSSIBILITY for an infinte number of matrices to exist.

Whether or not they do? Who knows...but it's possible. Whether or not they do in this movie? Who knows...but it's possible.

I love the idea that impossibility is only impossible until it is proven otherwise. Go back 100 years and tell someone that they could send a message from somewhere in Australia to somewhere in Europe almost instantly. Impossible, they'd say. The person who proposed such a proposturous idea would be labeled 'crazy.' Here we are today, however, with an internet so capable of sending messages across continents in seconds...

I think one of the largest and most key elements that the Wachowskis were trying to get across by creating this trilogy is not one of a specific goal. This is not a movie to explain love, truth, technology, control, choice...any of those. While it does give us a few temporary constructs of those ideas (thank you, Smith), I very thoroughly believe that this movie is aimed at creating a realization of something much grander. The main idea I believe they were trying to get across was the idea of possibility. It's a very deep idea and can be seen in literally every scene. Probability is both related and unrelated to possibility. So long as there is at least a possibility, there is at least SOME probability, but that leads us to only one thing: inevitability. Just because the probability of a possibility is small, does not mean it will never happen. If a possibility exists, sooner or later, it will no longer be just a possibility, but a reality.

Sorry...I'm long winded. Some more thoughts in any direction?

Where'd this silly idea that microsoft is run by aliens come from?

hahahaha microsoft run by aliens

lol...just examples. Nobody claimed that that's what was really going on. Just examples. I hadn't thought about it in TOO much depth I guess...would be a little weird if Bill Gates ripped off a mask to reveal some sort of character from the movie Alien. haha...good stuff...

just a few more thoughts-
the matrix is a system for generating sensations. neo can manipulate it because he is allowed to by the system, or because the system's programming makes it inevitable that one human being must be able to totally control the simulation. neo breaks some of the rules, but his ability to break the rules is one of the rules of the matrix.

if u apply that to the real world - its a system too. so if u want to break its rules, u must either-
1. be allowed to do so by the system itself
2. be on the level of the creator of the system, therefore being able to recreate/modify the system
both cases do not apply to us, so i dont see how i can fly to school. just beleiving that u can change the rules of the system is inconsequential.

and bill gates really isnt human go to

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A matrix is a form of control. As long as there is a reason to control something else, a matrix will likely be created. THIS stands to reason that everything can be controlled by something else. Everything could be within a matrix created by something else.

Yes, but there are different forms of control. there is forced control through subjugation, implied control through obedience, and the invisibility of control through manipulation. All of these are forms that the movie explores.

these manifest themselves as the following:

forced contol in the Matrix
Implied control by following the Oracles Prophesies
Manipulative control by the Architect to bring Neo back to the source.

If it is a MwM it takes away from those explorations and makes the movie more shallow.

There is also the question of free will vs destiny that is so apparent in the movies. while in the matrix it is an environment of definate destiny. every choice has been made for you. In the real world it is more of a free will environment. To further this, Is there true free will or just the illusion of free will. Did Neo have a true choice to return to the source or not or did he have no choice and was destined to do it. This question can only be explored in the environment of the real world because in the matrix there is no true free will.

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If we admit the possibility of a single matrix existing, we must also admit that there is the POSSIBILITY for an infinte number of matrices to exist.

Quite true and a very good point. there is that possibility. We may very well be brains in a vat or even deeper - we may be thoughts in the head of another being somewhere. What if another biengs consciousness created a universe of thought in his head. We are the result of that thought process. - How do you define consciousness? No one has agreed yet on that question. What if we are the result of a mind thinking us up? Watch out - at any time the being may sneeze and forget all about us thus exterminating our existance forever!

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I love the idea that impossibility is only impossible until it is proven otherwise.

Facinating isnt it! Nothing is impossible if we believe in true free will and the unlimited expansion of mind as well as technology.

Fatpie42 wrote:

Where'd this silly idea that microsoft is run by aliens come from?

Its not common knowledge but Microsoft is controlled by Aliens. Bill Gates is an alien leader from a destroyed world of technology and is here to wreak havok on the computer world and put us all into his own Matrix!

(Just kidding)

Starbuck

LMAO....BILL GATES IS AN ALIEN LEADER!
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

LOL....as I was reading that very last bit of your last post, starbuck, I was thinking to myself, "damn, here I go, agreeing with some nut that thinks Bill Gates is an alien...he had so many good points before, why'd he have to go all fruity on me now?" Haha...good stuff though.

I never thought of the fact that a "matrix" could merely be the thoughts of a more advanced being, rather than a computer generated world. A mind generated world rather than a computer generated world. Very interesting...thx for postin the concept!

Dweeb,

Sorry for my delayed reply...had'nt been exploring this forum lately.

Dweeb wrote:

What was the evidence of the matrix being a fake world to Mr. Anderson? How could he possibly have had any inclination to think "Jeez, I bet this place ain't even real..."

Its simple. The matrix is a computer dream. Neo has real dreams too when he is asleep(when he thinks he is asleep, LOL !). To the mind both are simply dreams. Is'nt it weird to call one dream as "real" and the other as "dream" ? How will the mind differentiate between a real dream and a computer-generated-dream ? Thats the "splinter" in his mind ! He feels something is wrong, but he is not able to express it. Its the question which drove him ! He was'nt looking for Morpheus, he was only looking for an answer ! The same thing applies to the kid ("Why are my dreams more real than reality ?")

There is not much difference between the real world and the matrix. Every event and existence in our "real world" is bound by the rules of science; every event and existence in the matrix is bound by the rules of a computer. Atoms and molecules make up our world; 1s and 0s make up the matrix. But the main difference is that the matrix rules are not perfect. They had a glitch and that glitch gave people the power within the matrix. But in our world, so far no one has been able to fly without wings and I dont think any one can bend the spoons with their minds. The rules of our world are perfect and are not flawed. So we cannot fly ! May be we're living in a matrix created by God, his rules are perfect and not flawed like the Architect's.

I agree with u that the mind is very powerful. Thats why we were not yet able to replicate its function in a computer. The simplest of tasks we do is very complex for a computer to perform. You can easily read a book, but for a computer to do that, it takes hell of a research work to accomplish that. When u signup for a yahoo account, they ask u to enter a word shown in a noisy picture. Why ? Because no program of our time can "read" it. A pattern recognition program expects a decent picture without much noise and distortions to identify the letter, but your mind can recognize even a most noisy twisted and distorted character !

dweeb wrote:

I just wanted to note that the scene where Morpheus says, "Is this real?" sparked the same thoughts in my mind

Morpheus truly believed the prophecy with all his heart. He spent his entire life looking for the One so that he can fulfill the prophecy. But he was terribly disappointed when he learnt that the prophecy was FAKE and Zion is a form of control. Later, at the end of M3, when he saw that the One ended the war, he was'nt sure that the "fake" prophecy can be fulfilled. Thats why he asked "is this real" ? (The prophecy is fake because the return of the One did NOT hail the destruction of the matrix). It also implies that the peace will not last forever. If it lasts then there will no matrix sequel ! The architect also asks abt this at the end of the movie.

dweeb wrote:

I love the idea that impossibility is only impossible until it is proven otherwise.

May be MwM is a cool idea, but that means WE are in a matrix ! We all have limitations to our knowledge (at least at this point of time). I like Mandelbrot's philosophy..."To reach the infinite, explore the finite in all directions". I think we humans should learn abt ourselves, our surroundings and how we can improve our lives before trying to know abt the ultimate truth/reality. What if our galaxy could be a football to a group of aliens playing soccer ! (as shown at the end of MIB) !

Btw,You guys got wrong abt Bill Gates.... He is the Merovingian who has unplugged himself and jumped back in his time machine to our time !

Sorry, couldnt resist the Bill Gates thing - heh.

Wow, what a great thread, one of the reasons I love the Matrix, it sparks off so much thought, that and the ass-kicking in it.

Anyway, I think Neo can manipulate the Matrix because he is connected to the system somehow, the average freed mind can bend and break the rules of the matrix because it is a computer system and therefore flawed, the basic premise should be the same in this world and the 'real' world in the movie, a system of controls(physics) with the ability to be broken. I'm not explaining myself very well here. I'll try again:

Two systems, the computer system(matrix) and the physical system(real world), if you can manipulate one you should be able to manipulate the other, but, as the arcitecht says, the program is flawed, so it can be manipulated by freed minds and moreso by Neo. Whether our world is perfect or not is the question, certainly things have happened that suggest it is not beyond a measure of manipulation, mind over matter, telepathy etc. I think the buddhists were onto a winner when they say inner growth is the path to enlightenment, mental growth through medatation could be seen as similar to this. You know those Shaolin monks, they can do crazy stuff through the focussing of their minds. Humans only use 7% of their minds and we've sone all our amazing things, imagine if 100% was used. Extra Sensory Perception is similar aswell I think(based on meditation aswell).

I hope that made more sense.

windows XP! alien software! ah!

I know what u meen. we only use up to 10percent of our brains at any time. if we freed that other 90percent of our brains we to could be able to do things we never thaught was possible. And maybe the matrix is real and we all r stuck in it waitng to be free. u don't have to believe me its just what i think. go the matrix!

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