»What did the Oracle steal?«

During his speach, the Meril. said that the oracle 'stole' something from him and that each action had consequense. He also mentioned that 'where others see choice, i see cost'

Is it possible that the Merl. sells CHOICE to the machines willing to pay for it? Think about it. The Oracle needed to make a choice but as a machine she couldn't go beyond her programming and make that choice. So she needed to 'steal' one from him.

Also, remember Sati. He parents wanted to be able to make the choice to send her into the matrix. But she does not belong there so the Meryl. sold them the ability to do it.. through Choice.

Am I way off here?

At the point you are talking about the oracle had not yet been changed had she? I think what she is supposed to have stolen is Seraph. We hadn't seen Seraph until recently so could that be it?

What about rogue programs though...When a program faces deletion, it can either choose to return to the source, or hide out in the matrix...Smith doesn't mention anything about talking to Merv (i loved it when trinity called him "merv" ) to become an exile program, but who knows...maybe it was one of those -behind the scenes- deals that we just don't get to witness...interesting that Merv wants Oracle's eyes, just as Neo gains "the sight." Hmm....what the hell kinda candy is she feeding that kid?

vtroia wrote:

Is it possible that the Merl. sells CHOICE to the machines willing to pay for it?

Hey, I like that.

1. Stole Seraph
2. Took the keymaker, indirectly by giving Neo a way to get at Merv
3. some unmentioned ability or asset

I always assumed that Mero. was referring to the keymaker, and I thought I had a good reason, but I can't think of it. Was there something in the video game that supports this? If not, it follows pretty well. The Oracle told Neo to take the Keymaker, Neo follows her orders (under the contempt of the Merovingian), therefore she stole him. Now Neo has a price on his head, and the Merovingian wants to punish the Oracle too. Also, the Oracle explains that the reason she lost her shell was that ". . .[she] made a choice. . .to help Neo."

Although I like the "selling choice" explanation as a double-meaning/ metaphor. I think that it's a theme in the movies that choices have costs. The Oracle corroborates this (the cost of her choice was her shell).

i think it was his purpose...the merovingian was initially designed to find out why the first matrix collapsed....then the oracle who was written to study human behaviour while she had nothing to do when the matrix was being fixed..."stumbled across a solution" and so was given the merovingians purpose and hence he was exiled into the matrix

It's either Seraph or Sati.

When I replied to this last I couldn't remember whether the quote came from M2 or M3. having downloaded a really awful copy of M3 recently I was able to see that the line comes when Mero is in club hell.

In the video game the oracle says to Ghost (it might have been Niobe - I'm not certain) that she is in her new form because she saved a little girl (who she says is important). It is now blatant that she is talking about Sati, though at the time when I played the game I had no way of knowing who she was talking about.

I'm pretty sure that what the Oracle stole that P.O.ed Merv was the Keymaker. Here's why:

Quote:

Oracle: I'm the Oracle. I wish there was an easier way to get through this but there ain't. I'm sorry this had to happen. I'm sorry I couldn't be sitting here like you remember me. But it wasn't meant to be. Trinity: What happened? Oracle: I made a choice, and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to. Morpheus: What choice? Oracle: To help you to guide Neo.

When the Oracle says "you" in that last line, she's talking to Morpheus and Trinity. It was her helping Morpheus and Trinity that led to her shell being terminated. The last bit of guiding had led Neo, Morpheus, and Trinty to steal the Keymaker from Merv. And remember, Merv didn't put out a bounty just on the Oracle, but on Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity as well. I think it can be inferred that this was in retaliation to them (all of them) stealing the Keymaker. I think that Merv's speech about choices having prices serves to reinforce this, because it can then be inferred that they are both talking about the same choice. Of course, a person can argue that the Merovingian does not want Neo to succeed with his mission for some reason or another, but I think you can rulethat out because there is no specified reason that the Merovingian has for not wanting Neo to succeed until Neo steals the Keymaker from him.

The Oracle indirectly stole the Keymaker from the Merv. She sent Neo, Trin, and Morpheus to get him because she knew that they needed him, and they succeeded in removing him from the Merv's palace.

"The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason to give him up, no reason at all." -Merv

The Merv wanted the Keymaker to make special keys for him so that he could move in and out of Matrix 'backdoors' with no problems. In retaliation for the Oracle stealing the Keymaker, I believe Merv sent someone to delete the Oracle and they were either partially successful, thus the new shell; OR, she changed her shell to avoid his killers.

she stole a fiver from merv's wallet to buy fags and a bottle of cheap cider

hahaha

Yes, good views but that got me thinking. Doesn't the One have to reach the Keymaker in every version of the Matrix? Because only the Keymaker gives the One the key that can open the door to the Source (the Architect's room actually, not Source). So if the Keymaker was stolen from Merv in every version, then did Merv carry out revenge on the Oracle in every version? That gets me thinking about the keymaker. Was he stolen in every version? How come he dies at the end of Reloaded? Arrg! help.

sumesh wrote:

1. Stole Seraph 2. Took the keymaker, indirectly by giving Neo a way to get at Merv 3. some unmentioned ability or asset

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Yes, good views but that got me thinking. Doesn't the One have to reach the Keymaker in every version of the Matrix? Because only the Keymaker gives the One the key that can open the door to the Source (the Architect's room actually, not Source). So if the Keymaker was stolen from Merv in every version, then did Merv carry out revenge on the Oracle in every version? That gets me thinking about the keymaker. Was he stolen in every version? How come he dies at the end of Reloaded? Arrg! help.

Yeah, maybe she does it differently everytime, which is what pisses the Merovingian off so much?

The Keymaker died because he could die. His purpose was fulfilled. I'm sure he gets reloaded everytime. But as the Matrix has now changed, the cyclic nature has been discontinued, he's ok to stay dead!

AG, my speculation is that in previous matrix versions , events unfold differently due to choice which creates many variables that can produce multiple outcomes. So the events may be different, and different paths are taken. However, in the end the one whom is guided or manipulated by the oracle always end up on the path leading to the source to reload.

Hmm...makes sense.

My theory is that the Merovingian didn't have the Keymaker in previous Matrices but managed to steal him in this Matrix. Or perhaps, the keymaker always returned to the Merovingian before (because he is an exile), but didn't return this time because he died. Or else, the path to the Source is always different.

Good question, I don't know. That's something new to think about.

I think I'd have to agree that the path is always different, because if the Keymaker were always integral to the path to the source, he wouldn't have been an exile.

That brings the question of the original purpose and job of the Keymaker. If I am understanding you correctly bachsoffice, you are running under the assumption that the Keymaker belongs to the Merovingian. Correct me if I am wrong. However I thought that the Merovingian kidnaps the Keymaker. Lets talk a bit more about this.

Also, if the One didn't have to reach the Merovingian in every version to reach the Keymaker, what about this line:

"I have survived your predecessors and I will survive you"

That also gets me thinking: If the Merovingian `survived' Neo's predecessors then that means that the previous Ones did not get access to the Keymaker. Or does it? For some reason the Keymaker part always confuses me.

The one thing we do know, is that inside the matrix, the only way to access the architect room is through the keymaker. So in would think the keymaker is in every version of the last 6 matrix. That may explain how the Merv has encounter previous ones as they try to get help from the keymaker to reach the source.

I think the Merv who has access to many vital information knows the only way to the source(inside matrix route) is via the keymaker. He know it is important it is to possess the keymaker, as he does not want to the matrix reloaded. Personally, I think he just steal the keymaker everytime and claim it as his own.

Althought events and outcomes may be different in previous matrix, but in the end, it always lead down the path of accessing the keymaker to reach the source.

How I interpret the theory of the Path being different for every matrix is that the Source might appear anywhere. This time in a building behind a locked door, next time in the trunk of tree, etc. . .just my theory.

I would be inclined to think that the Source would always be behind that door, but then why is the keymaker an exile? That's what throws me for a loop. Then again, perhaps there are other keys to that door floating around in the Matrix that the keymaker had made previously.

By the way, what I was saying about the Keymaker belonging to the Merovingian was that perhaps the keymaker needs refuge by the Merovingian because he is (for some reason) an exile. We know that the keymaker is an exile because the agents call him one in the freeway scene. If he is an exile, then he is probably smuggled in by Merv. But I still don't understand how he could possibly be an exile. Maybe we all have the wrong definition for exile.

We do not know for sure the keymaker is an exile. We see Neo was trapped by the Merv temporarily and he was gonna trade him for the oracle's eyes. But we know Neo can not possibly be an exile. The point is just because the keymaker is with the Merv, it does not make him an exile.

My guess is that Merv knows how important the keymaker is, as it is his business to know. He would steal him every time and claim him as his belonging in order to keep the one from reaching the source.

m4jor_p41n wrote:

The Oracle indirectly stole the Keymaker from the Merv. She sent Neo, Trin, and Morpheus to get him because she knew that they needed him, and they succeeded in removing him from the Merv's palace. "The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason to give him up, no reason at all." -Merv The Merv wanted the Keymaker to make special keys for him so that he could move in and out of Matrix 'backdoors' with no problems. In retaliation for the Oracle stealing the Keymaker, I believe Merv sent someone to delete the Oracle and they were either partially successful, thus the new shell; OR, she changed her shell to avoid his killers.

The Oracle's appearance had already changed by the time Neo and crew stole The Keymaker from The Merovingian. It all happened because the Rama-Kandra sold The Oracle's code (or shell) to The Merovingian., and because she made the decision to help guide Neo.

From The Matrix Revolutions:
Oracle: Morpheus, Trinity. Thank you for coming. One thing I've learned in all my years is that nothing ever works out just the way you want it to.
Trinity: Who are you?
Oracle: I'm the Oracle. I wish there was an easier way to get through this but there ain't. I'm sorry this had to happen. I'm sorry I couldn't be sitting here like you remember me. But it wasn't meant to be.
Trinity: What happened?
Oracle: I made a choice, and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to.
Morpheus: What choice?
Oracle: To help you to guide Neo.

From Enter The Matrix:
GHOST: Expectation. Can you tell me what happened to you?
ORACLE: Two programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my original shell to the Merovingian.
GHOST: Why did they do that?
ORACLE: For love, and for the life of their child.
GHOST: You knew about it, and yet you let it happen?
ORACLE: I had to.
GHOST: Why?
ORACLE: Because the child is important. I can't tell you why, but I believe that one day the child will change both our world and your world forever.

ORACLE: I know this won't be easy for any of you. Change never is. I wish the face you remember was the face I was still wearing. But that face is gone.
.
.
.
NIOBE: Can I ask what happened?
ORACLE: The Merovingian warned me that if I made a certain choice, it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word.
NIOBE: What was the choice?
ORACLE: The same one that you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not.

I think we have our definition of exile just right. Also I think that we can pretty sure that the Keymaker is the exile the agents refer to during the freeway chase.

Agent Thompson: We have them now.
Agent Johnson: The exile is the primary target.

If you still think that the agents could be reffering to someone besides the Keymaker:

Keymaker: We do only what we're meant to do.
Agent: Then you are meant for one more thing. Deletion.

Anyway, moving on. As to why the Keymaker is an exile. I thought that the Keymaker's primary purpose was to give the key to the One to lead him to the Source. Now if you see Enter the Matrix, the Keymaker knew about this purpose but did not know how he had to carry it out. He did not know that Neo would come to him. So Cain and Abel leave the door open to trick him and the Keymaker wanders off and eventually gives the key to Niobe and Ghost and asks them to give it to Neo. I thought that after this is done the agents believe that the Keymaker's purpose is complete. But Cain and Abel destroy that key and the Keymaker is forced to build another one for Neo. He now knows that Neo will come to see him. But the agents do not know this and hence they try to chase him.

Let me know if you see any flaws in this theory because it just that- a theory.

That's a good theory Akshat. It covers the hole pretty well. But from a continuity standpoint it has a weakness. How do the Agents know that the key has been created (thus fulfilling the keymaker's purpose), but then not know that the key had been destroyed?

This is also assuming that the agents know that the One is supposed to return to the Source. Which might be the answer: The agents don't know that the One is supposed to return to the Source, so they think the keymaker doesn't have a purpose. It seems to me the Agents must not know the "big picture" because they work so hard to stop the One from being found and then try to destroy Neo when he is found. There's another thread discussing this, but I think the Agents are programmed to relentlessly pursue freed humans and exile programs inside the Matrix and are given no knowledge of bigger plans. Perhaps, as far as they're concerned, there shouldn't be any backdoors to begin with.

Another theory is that, although the keymaker is still important, he has disobeyed his programming and makes keys against that he's not supposed to. So maybe he is an exile, not because he has no further purpose, but because he had defied his programming. He did make keys for the Merovingian, presumably to hide exile programs. He might have done this because he didn't want to see exile programs die, so he helped Merv to hide them by making backdoors in the Chateau.

Does anyone like either of these two theories?