»Do we live in a Dream World?«

Do we live in a dream world? Does the or a Matrix exist? Or if not will the future end for us as told in the Second Renaissance? Through science we have created AI, will this lead to are dustruction in the future?

These are some of the question that i have been asing myself, I would like to know your thoughts on these questions.

I want this tread to be an interlectual on , discussing the relationship between the matrix and say: religion, philosphy, pyschology, computer science, and computer philosophy etc.

So please keep this tread going.

1.no we dont live in the dream world
2. matrix exists only as an idea
3.humans are not that bloodthirsty monsters that were shown in the animatrix and wouldnt kill an intelligent life form they created...

ive seen an article in the newspapers about some guy who went batshit crazy and killed his parents and his neighbor because he thought he was in the matrix ...what an idiot besides lol would u kill ur parents and ur neighobr if u found out u were in the matrix ?

if you are seriously asking yourself these questions then i think its time to "unplug man...get some R n R"

"what do you think dejour...should we take him with us?"

Well the fact that you ask that question raises the question and the possiblilty..so enjoy you insanity....personally I will deal with one reality at a time. This one is real to me and thats all that really matters. If you find a way out though enjoy and fight the good fight.

No need to attack him like that, 1st it was not him but the wachoz who stated that possiblity and they were rewarded for it w millions of dollars, so its only fair to ask. But no, matrix movies have no common ground w the real world.


EOD (end of discussion)

"Almost 99% of all test subjects when given a choice, will answer as follows;"

John Mirra wrote:

1.no we dont live in the dream world 2. matrix exists only as an idea 3.humans are not that bloodthirsty monsters that were shown in the animatrix and wouldnt kill an intelligent life form they created...

Xhadow wrote:

Well the fact that you ask that question raises the question and the possiblilty..so enjoy you insanity....personally I will deal with one reality at a time. This one is real to me and thats all that really matters. If you find a way out though enjoy and fight the good fight.

Now read matrix-explained.com... and look up the word dictionary.reference.com...

Quote:

Through science we have created AI, will this lead to are dustruction in the future?

I strongly believe that creating an AI is not inventing some thing new, but ONLY DISCOVERING YOURSELF...your TRUE SELF ! I strongly believe that this is the peak of evolution for life on earth...discovery of itself. I also believe that by discovering yourself, you can touch the person/force who created you !

My prediction is that if there is such a thing called AI, or a highly evolved AI, that AI is the thinking man ! I know it sounds wierd but truth is stranger than fiction ! AI is the branch of computer science which tries to replicate human intelligence in machines.

I am not attacking him I am just stating my feelings on his statement.

"The Matrix" = a movie.

"Reloaded" and "Revolutions" = stories/movies to patch up the ending of "The Matrix"

"The Second Renaissance" = a cartoonish video related to "The Matrix".

"A.I." = something, according to my thinking, that humans have not yet achieved.

Artificial intelligence is nowhere near reaching a level of "self awareness" like we have seen in movies like terminator 2 and the matrix.

Here is an example of how modern aritificial intelligence works. It is called Eliza and it is pitiful. Have a conversation and see what you think:

damn that piece of software is dumb like hell...

There is also an AI chat service that is quite interesting.

Go to

It's just as dumb as Eliza except it puts some offensive phrases in too.

I believe that what scienthest says is pretty much right. We should keep in mind that whatever we can dream up or imagine, we can create. How do we know and understand reality. Is it with language. Think for a minute. How do we describe something we have not found language to describe. Is it through language that we know something exists?, do we speak it into existance?, or that and others senses?. I believe the WB's have found a very creative, clever, neat and thoughtful ( the discussion groups abound) way of explaining something on many different levels. Who of you young people are going to be able to understand Jung's writings etc unless you are studying it, or it is put into a vehicle that you are interested in watching. The WB's are not only very well read, they are extremely well read. To be able to pull all of threads, belief systems etc into a trilogy of this kind is amazing, and I suspect little understood by most of the critics and editors etc, unless they are just as well read. The knowledge they have tapped into, and more, comes from a place that cannot be accessed unless a great deal of work as been done on the self, and they don't have it all either, none of us can really at this stage of our evolution. For me it is a way of describing the journey to the self by incorporating all parts of the 'shadow' (the lost parts of ourselves) including the gold in the shadow. It should be kept in mind that dreams are outside as well as inside, as is God, outside and inside. To start a dialogue between the inner and the outer worlds is about the 'question that drives us'. Also analogous to the Garden of Eden. Walking out of the garden into reality is taking a bite from the tree of knowledge which you would remember was offered to Adam by Eve. What is the opposite of reality, is it denial? Once some of the journey is completed, (and probably most of us would not complete it in one lifetime on Earth), an understanding can be gleaned of our purpose, and the term 'knower of the known'. This term seems to indicate that something is already' known' about us/life/love/truth/justice/nature/god/and everything else, however we have lost it, or not evolved enough along the pathway to 'know' it. When we are told that God knows everything we do or is watching us, if you understand that God is within and without, this is easier to understand, because the inner God of course knows everything you do and think and say and be, just as the inner evil is there and knows the same, and the battle goes on. A way of starting this process is to begin to ask yourself daily what you are doing, how you are going about it. Every little thing you do or say during the day is part of this process. For instance the games that go on in relationships. If we stopped and asked ourselves 'why did I say that', or 'why have I done this', you set your mind/computer to giving you an answer. every little answer you get adds to the last answer until you begin to understand yourself more, and also who you are and what is your pathway. Eventually you will begin to recognize the trickster within, and can make a conscious choice about what you are doing, rather than being driven by a crazy machine that we have no knowledge of. This work can best be done through counselling groups, or psychologists, spiritual directors etc., and usually requires getting out of your 'comfort zone'. It is never easy, and usually very painful, and many get into the knowing and stop there without ever walking the path, which is of course is where the fear is. The bible is meant to be interpreted symbolically, and unfortunately it has been changed and interpreted to suit the power brokers of the times. Just as dreams are symbolic expulsions from within about us, who we are, what we are doing, and the why and how we should proceed. They come in symbolic form from within, and should be honoured. The trilogy are movies for our time, because we can now. There would have been no way of describing and making such films 100 years ago, because we had not advanced far enough along the evolutionary/consciousness scale, although a movie that was made in the first few years of the last century 'Metropolis' was very forward for its time. Each generation is seeded with the knowledge of those gone before, and how they go about understanding and using that knowledge determines whether they will go further, or whether they will stay stuck. Perhaps if we start understanding what god wants of us instead of our requirement of happiness, we may get to understand what is required of us. Perhaps god wants us to be complete (owning all of the lost parts of ourselves), and once we have reconciled all of these parts and the opposites, we will be happy. Demanding happiness by means of job, money, fame, without paying the ferryman, etc is a sure recipe for misery in one form or another.

Tilda, have you heard of "paragraphs". They don't half make things easier to read.

Dont be so hasty for AI to behave as man ! It took millions of years for life to reach this level of intelligence. Its been only 50 years since the first computer was created !

It took me 21 years to gain my level of intelligence. What's the computer's problem?

I've rattled these ideas around for quite some time now...

According to Ray Kurzweil's book The Age of Spiritual Machines,
( pg 32)

"A primary reason that evolution - of life-forms or of technology - speeds up is that it builds on its own increasing order. Innovations created by evolution encourage and enable faster evoltuion. ...In the case of evolution of technology, ever improving human methods of recording information have fostered further technology. The first computers were designed on paper and assembled by hand. Today, they are designed on computer workstations with the computers themselves working out many details of the next generation's design, and are then produced in fully automated factories with human guidance but limited direct intervention....Innovation is multiplicative, not additive. Technology, like any evolutionary process builds on itself. This aspect will continue to accelerate when the technology itself takes full control of its own progression."

Here's another thing ( among many) that he says thats interesting ( p25).


"Computers are about one hundred million times more powerful for the same unit cost than they were a half centruy ago. If the automobile industry had made as much progress in the past fifty yeras, a car today would cost a hundredth of a cent and go faster than the speed of light".

i think we are safe for the time being...

hahaha

Fatpie42 wrote:

It took me 21 years to gain my level of intelligence. What's the computer's problem?

Are u sure you are 21 ? May be the age of your body is 21... but are YOU 21 ? What makes u INTELLIGENT ? What makes you think ? Have you realized how long it took ? Think abt this one deeply. Ask yourself what are YOU. Clearly you are not simply your body...are you ?

The language you speak is thousands of years old. What exactly is human progress ? Your intelligence is the result of human progress. The human progress started 40000 years ago (if I'm not mistaken abt the years). So we can say that YOU are 40000 years old. But the intelligence/progress is the result of evolution of brain. It took millions of years to achieve this level of growth. So we can say that your body is 21 years old, but your intelligence is millions of years old.

I know this sounds wierd, but sit alone and ask yourself who you are. Think abt what makes you sentient. Think abt what you would have been if u were born and raised in a "castaway"(movie) like solitary island without any human interactions.

If you are 21 years old...and you have gained some intelligence, where have you gained it from? Most likely, from other people. Your math teacher in 3rd grade taught you how to multiply two numbers together and get a solution to an equation. You high-school English teacher taught you the proper use of grammar (although so many of us sluffed off in that class ). Your mommy/daddy taught you all about family stuff. So basically, you've been going around your entire life collecting intelligence that everyone else already knows. So who's intelligence is it really then? Did you come up with how to tie your show all on your own? (ok, maybe some of you quick learners out there got that one, but gimme a break) Are you about to sit down all by yourself in a dark room with no previous knowledge of quantum physics and figure it out all by yourself? Hell no...you read books, you go to classes with instructors who know all about the stuff. You learn from other people. Very rarely does intelligence come from but a single soul. When it does, let your local university know about it and claim your Ph.D

Also...my computer runs on an operating system. I use a program to log onto the internet in order to be able to talk with you guys. My computer doesn't claim that it's intelligent (even if it was self aware, I doubt that it would claim that it was intelligent). My computer is able to do some intelligent things because of something else's intelligence, or rather, someone else's intelligence. It is able to share the intelligence of anything that was programmed into it by a human. So is the artificial intelligence that a machine, which may or may not come to possess, any different than the artificial intelligence that the human being got from another human being? Intelligence is not gained, only compounded.

WHOOO that was fun...

dweeb,

that was a great thought ! I was implying that ! In a sense, the real "me" is millions of years old. As old as the begining of life itself !

Well, it wasn't my thought, surprise, surprise. I was just rewording a thought as I interpretted it from you. Which leads me to my next point: artificial intelligence or intelligent copying? What if the machines we see in the "real world" never did actually develop their own intelligence (which humans named "artificial"). What if creating the kind of "artificial intelligence" that the humans were trying to create only amounted to CLOSE to artificial intelligence. I don't really know how to define intelligence perfectly, so I can't really define artificial intelligence any better but the things that normally pop into my mind when I think of artificial intelligence is that a machine can think for itself, be creative, those kinds of things...Imagine, for a moment, that the machines are great emmulators of intelligence, merely copying what they see in humans to the best of their ability. This would then, create a purpose for keeping humans around...

Kinda far fetched, but hey, that's the way I roll with ideas...here we go...

Suppose that the above statements are true...machines never really did develop intelligence. They could use the EXCUSE that they were keeping humans around as a renewable energy source, all the while studying them still, trying to come up with an answer for intelligence. The matrix seems like the perfect laboratory for such experiments...to study a subject where you can control ALL of the conditions including the environment, interractions, previous experiences...everything, in the hopes that they would stumble upon the ability to think for themselves rather than copy everything...

Also, suppose that perhaps intelligence CAN'T be perfectly replicated...(although I'm sure I'll be proven wrong in the near future...) But for now, we can only come up with the idea that one day, machines will be able to think as independantly as we humans do. The idea for machines to have their own consciousness and thought processes. What if we never get/got that far?

Could the machines try to save what's left of humanity and give them an artificial environment where they could safely live their lives? An environment where, if 100% of the humans accepted such an environment, they might be able to develop A.I. inside the matrix, and use such theories in the real world?

Mr. Anderson is a computer programmer around the year 2000 (roughly, don't argue with me about the exact date...). In our real world today, 2004 (almost new year, guys!) we are studying A.I. So concievably, in a false reality matrix that is populated and repopulated every so often, humans would reach the level of being able to study A.I. around the year 2000 (roughly). Suppose the machines have done this hundreds of times before, but every time, the humans make a mistake and don't develop A.I. the correct way. Suppose that every time they begin to study A.I., they make a wrong turn and start heading down the wrong direction (which has been proven false in so many matrices before...). Wouldn't it be about time to re-load the matrix in the hopes that the next population might CHOOSE a different route of study and perhaps make some advances toward A.I.?

This would effectively make humans creative and intelligent batteries. Research tools, if you will.

And gimme a break about the agents of the matrix, man...those damn agents...I don't buy the fact that every time an agent shows up, the humans (excluding Neo here) are just lucky enough to escape or survive the battle in some way...The agents LET them get away so they can reload the matrix again and start all the research stuff all over again. How about the story about why Morpheus and his buddies (if not morpheus and his buddies, whoever had Morpheus' job before him) didn't get a hold of Mr. Anderson much earlier in his lifetime...? They usually never free a mind after a specific age. Why didn't they get Neo so long ago? Could it be that the agents were actually DOIN their job? That they actually protected Mr. Anderson from the outsiders until the time was right to reload the matrix again?

Like I said...my ideas get kinda far fetched sometimes...I just plopped all that crap out of my imagination, so don't think it has anything to do with the storyline or anything...heheh...concievable though, huh? Would put a nice twist on stuff. The Wachowski's did, after all, leave quite a bit to the imagination when it comes to what actually happens after M3 and before M1. Only reason I tossed this in here is because I remember a post (possibly a different thread, so flame me if I'm in the wrong spot) that was talking about why the machines wouldn't just use the sun for an energy source by putting towers up to the sky or whatever...well, this post ties into intelligence and a reason for keeping humans around for an inefficient energy source as well...all right...I feel stupid enough now, you can all have your thread back!