»The ANOMALY and ANOMALIES (proof for multiple anomalies)«

This was argued in other threads, but there were lot of ideas in that thread and people could miss it. Thats why I'm reposting it here. Without this information u can never proceed in your search for an answer...to know what the matrix is !
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U can see in "Beyond" (Japanese Anime in the animatrix), a TV-screen like message with the following...

Quote:

WARNING : rendering anomaly at region 03:01:07.20, 11:07:04.20

This quote clearly proves that "anomaly" is not another word for the-One. Moreover, its a system message, not a quote spoken by a character. So it must have a direct meaning, not implied meaning.

Let me give literary definitions for "anomaly"

1. departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method; abnormality

2. anything anomalous.

In the matrix, it could be applied as

1. The PROBLEM (ie) "fundamental flaw" in choice which causes fluctuations in the equations (Eg. Architect : "You are the eventuality(outcome) of an anomaly(problem), and also in "Beyond" where "anomaly" was used to refer to the haunted house)

2. A PERSON who causes this problem. (Eg. Agents : "Its him, the anomaly(person)")

Quote:

thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly[1], that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself[2]. Ergo those that refused the program[3], while a minority, if unchecked[4], would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

1. The architect is explaining abt the contradictory systemic anomaly (problem, not the person).

2. The anomaly (problem, not person) must not be left "unchecked"

3. Those that refused the program, lets say are different from the anomaly (ur "anomaly", the One)

4. ...should not be left unchecked.

See, the architect's quote is very linear. Systemic anomaly should not be left "unchecked", those that refuse the program should not be "unchecked". It does not get any more obvious than that. So both refer to the same and are not seperate entities. Those that refuse the program constitute the systemic anomaly ! So there are multiple anomalies ! (If u could say that "those" meant those who refused the first matrix program, then there would be no relationship between the statements and we will have no meaning at all!). Also note that "those" and the word "minority" mean a GROUP of anomalies, not just a single anomaly.

This theory was discussed here

Yea, the anomaly is caused because people are given the abilty to choose. The matirx predicts what people think and do. But They dont understand really understand love and emotion. So they can't predict what to do. Therefore glitches start to form which accumilate in Neo. The reason The oricle can see ahead is because she is just estimating what will happen because of the circumstances. Shes predicting what will happen because of the matrix equation.

I think we agree on the definition of anomaly. Here are a few thoughts to ponder

One -
Quote:

Neo: Hiya, fellas.
[agent 1] It's him.
[agent 2] The Anomaly.
[agent 3] Do we proceed?
[agent 2] Yes.
[agent 3] He is still...
[agent 1]...only human



two –

Quote:

I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

How do you account for this statement. we know that each version of the matrix is somewhere around 100 years. The architect counts from one emergence to the next. It is clearly a solitary event.

Three –

Quote:

You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.

These passages show clearly that a single anomaly is present in the system. The Anomaly is a "problem" in the system of control (matrix). The "problem" is choice. Neo is the eventually (human incarnation) of the "choice problem".

Quote:

This quote clearly proves that "anomaly" is not another word for the-One. Moreover, its a system message, not a quote spoken by a character. So it must have a direct meaning, not implied meaning

The house is a breakdown in the system. It is another problem/Anomaly. We do not know when this anomaly occured. It could have been in the very first version of the matrix or the second. there is not time reference here. It is an irrelevant agrument based on a story that is probably not even canocial or relevant to the current version of the Matrix.

Quote:

The PROBLEM (ie) "fundamental flaw" in choice which causes fluctuations in the equations (Eg. Architect : "You are the eventuality(outcome) of an anomaly(problem), and also in "Beyond" where "anomaly" was used to refer to the haunted house

You defeat yourself with this very statement. The Matrix has a single problem/anomaly. That anomaly is choice. Choice had to be designed onto the matrix in order to counter the unstabilty of human emotion that caused the matrix to crash in previous versions. Thus one problem/anomaly=choice by design in the matrix.

Neo is the human incarnation of that anomaly - the one - the anomaly - the problem!



Starbuck

starbuck wrote:

Neo is the human incarnation of that anomaly - the one - the anomaly - the problem!

i fully agree with you. neo is the personification of the anomaly, choice.

the anomaly mentioned in beyond could easily be something else. it is not necessary that every usage of the word anomaly must refer to the same thing.

Quote:

ARCHITECT: Please. As I was saying, she (ORACLE)stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself.

Due to Choice - anomaly emerges. Anything that contributes or cause a threat to the Matrix system will eventually be considered anomaly. Also anything that disrupt the otherwise balanced equation, will be contributing factors to an anomaly.

Smith's radical behavior and Neo' choice are a few example of factors that contributed to the eventual anomaly. I think when some people use the plural "anomalies" they are refering to the many "contributing factors" as "anomalies". This is confusing because there is only one anomaly, but many factors contribute to the "eventual anamoly"

1. How do u explain the architect's quote ? (I quoted them in the first post)

2. Choice is NOT the anomaly. The "otherwise contradiction" is the anomaly. 99% accept their dream as real, the choice mechanism works fine for those 99%. The remaining dont accept their dream as real ("there is no spoon"). Choice does'nt work for them. They make this "otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly". Anomaly is the flaw in choice mechanism. Choice is not the anomaly and it does'nt make any sense to call Neo as the personification/human-incarnation of choice.

3. Anomaly is the deviation from usual method. This deviation is the "problem" in the system. This deviation could destabilize the system. This is what I meant by "problem" (sorry for the confusion I created ! It has no relationship with "the problem is choice"). The "problem" in "the problem is choice" is an unsolved "mathematical problem" for which the architect is trying to find a solution.

4. Neo is a lucid dreamer as I explained in other posts. If Neo is the human-incarnation of anomaly, then what abt the rest of the lucid dreamers ? Would u call them anomaly too ?

5. There is only a singular anomaly and that anomaly is the deviation. This deviation is the problem in the matrix. This problem, if left unchecked would threaten the system itslef.

1. How do u explain the architect's quote ? (I quoted them in the first post)

2. Choice is NOT the anomaly. The "otherwise contradiction" is the anomaly. 99% accept their dream as real, the choice mechanism works fine for those 99%. The remaining dont accept their dream as real ("there is no spoon"). Choice does'nt work for them. They make this "otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly". Anomaly is the flaw in choice mechanism. Choice is not the anomaly and it does'nt make any sense to call Neo as the personification/human-incarnation of choice.

3. Anomaly is the deviation from usual method. This deviation is the "problem" in the system. This deviation could destabilize the system. This is what I meant by "problem" (sorry for the confusion I created ! It has no relationship with "the problem is choice"). The "problem" in "the problem is choice" is an unsolved "mathematical problem" for which the architect is trying to find a solution.

4. Neo is a lucid dreamer as I explained in other posts. If Neo is the human-incarnation of anomaly, then what abt the rest of the lucid dreamers ? Would u call them anomaly too ?

5. There is only a singular anomaly and that anomaly is the deviation. This deviation is the problem in the matrix. This problem, if left unchecked would threaten the system itslef.

The architect begins his monologue by stating that the first matrix was perfect and that humans rejected it en mass. Entire crops were lost. It was redesigned to reflect humans varying grotesqueries. He was again frustrated by failure. This implies humans rejecting the program en mass again. He then goes on to describe how the Oracle stumbled on to the answer to stabilize the matrix.

The architects next lines go as follows:

architect wrote:

She stumbled upon a solution whererby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level.

A choice was designed into the matrix whereby subjects that chose to refuse the program had an option to exercise that choice through the red pill. They have the option to leave the matrix if they want. The earlier versions did not have this.

architect wrote:

While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself.

The fact that they designed a choice into the matrix also created a systemic anomaly (singular) that if not redirected with a measure of “control” would threaten the system. this "system wide irregularity" is the unpredictable nature of human beings. It puts a level of instablitity in an otherwise perfectly stable environment. The new matrix design cannot correct this but it can only accomidate this design flaw as it emerges. The ultimate expression of this anomaly is "The One". The choice mechanism is put in place to allow humans the perception of free will and the right to exercise that free will if they choose to. It is a perception because the choice has already been made for them. for example If I am the source and I want Neo to come to the source. I will pose the question to him like this:

Do you want to come to the source by Train or
Do you want to come to the source by flight.

You see the choice has already been made for Neo but it is the perception of free will given to him that causes him not to see the inevitablity of the choice.

architect wrote:

Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

“Ergo (for that reason), those that refused the program, while a minority” is referring to the .1% of humans that still reject the matrix by taking the red pill. They are a minority because they constitute .1% of the entire human population. It is because the anomaly emerges (for that reason) that the minority if left unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Its obvious the Architect is talking about two things here. A minority of persons who refuse the program constitute a rising probability of causing a disaster with the matrix because of the emergence of an anomaly that emerges from a flawed matrix.
Technically your definition of integral is incorrect. It has two definitions and I think both apply here but probably one more than the other. The definitions are as follows.

1. A complete unit; a whole. – this is analogous to your math definition. It is not a sum of the curve but a representation of the whole of the curve.
It can also be defined as the value of the function at a point in each unit which is multiplied by the linear or areal measurement of that unit, and all such products are summed. Your use of sum stretch’s the meaning a bit.

2. Essential or necessary for completeness – this meaning is a better representation of the meaning of integral anomaly. It says that the anomaly is a necessary part of the matrix. It is required to keep the matrix from crashing all the time. Therefore the “integral anomaly” (singular again) is required for the stability of the matrix.

The architect states:

architect wrote:

I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the 6 version.

Morpheus states they have been fighting this war for 100 years so we can use this number to make a rough estimate of how long each version of the matrix lasts. It is obvious that the architect is talking about a singe anomaly and that there is a large span of time from the emergence of one to the emergence of the next. He does not say group of anomalies of even anomalies

architect wrote:

Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end.

fundamental flaw = the one = the Anomaly (singular again). The one creates zion by selecting 23 individuals thus being the creator (beginning) - and the one, by choosing the source door, dooms zion to destruction in this version of the matrix being the destructor (end)





Starbuck

I believe this debate is over poor dialogue. The Architect's speech is deliberately confusing. He uses vague words to express very specific meanings and he uses very technical multisyllabic words when more simple terms would have been much more concise. This, of course, was purposefully done because the Wachowski's wanted us to be confused with all the technical jargon.

Anyway, I believe the Architect uses the term "anomaly" in two (and perhaps even three) different meanings during his speech, which is very confusing because he otfen uses the different meanings in the same sentence.

He refers to the "anomaly" as the problem in the program as the Scienthieist is arguing.

He refers to the "anomaly" specifically referring to Neo as Starbuck points out.

He also uses the term "anomaly" in its dictionary usage as an unexplainable thing or event.

I think this is all part of a device to make the Architect's speech hard to understand and keep our heads spinning in the theater. It took me four or five readings just to make sense of it. Anyway, I think this is one of those rare times when evreyone is right.

the anomaly is the result of a piece of code that needed to be inserted into a human in order for the matrix to function...it is inserted and when it begins to become a danger to the system it is lured back to the source for disassembly by the oracle and her false prophecy of "the one"

the machines problem is that this anomaly code is duplicated in smith and this is just as dangerous for the existance of the matrix as having no anomaly code...

"the one" comes about as the result of a self fullfilling prophecy in that what was spoken finally comes true

in the form of sati who is "able to change the matrix as he/she/it sees fit"

starbuck,

starbuck wrote:

I think we agree on the definition of anomaly.

1. U said u agreed to my definition of anomaly being problem and the person who causes the problem. U also imply that this definition applies to the current version of the matrix.

2. U said the "anomaly" in beyond is different from the general usage of anomaly, because "Beyond" could be an earlier version of the matrix. Lets say Beyond is an earlier version of the matrix, and lets say the "anomaly" in Beyond is different from the usage of anomaly in ver 6.0

starbuck wrote:

The architect begins his monologue by stating that the first matrix was perfect and that humans rejected it en mass .... The fact that they designed a choice into the matrix also created a systemic anomaly (singular) that if not redirected with a measure of “control” would threaten the system.

3. What u r implying is the matrix v1.0 (ignoring the crashed choiceless matrices) has an ANOMALY. U r using the same definition for anomaly which u agreed upon for ver 6.0.

HAS UR DEFINITION OF ANOMALY CHANGED FROM MATRIX v1.0 TO v6.0 ? You are simply changing the definitions the way u want ! If the definition of anomaly in v1.0 is the same as that of in v6.0, then the definition for anomaly is the same in ALL THE VERSIONS OF THE MATRIX ! You CANNOT ignore the "anomaly" in Beyond !

starbuck wrote:

A choice was designed into the matrix whereby subjects that chose to refuse the program had an option to exercise that choice through the red pill.

The choice is not abt the red-pill. Its abt the video game as I explained it to u. Do u remember the scene in "Hollow Man" ? He sees things even when he closes his eyes. The failed matrices directly injected visions into ur brain and u see things no matter u closed ur eyes or opened ur eyes. Using "choice", the system interacts with u and decides what to give u. If u choose to close ur eyes, then the system wont show u anything. The choice based matrix is a "lucid dream world", the failed matrices were just a "dream world". People have control over their dream in a lucid dream world. Thats both the success and the flaw coz 1% of the people were able to exert greater degree of control over their dreams.

When people are given this degree of freedom within the matrix, they also have the freedom to accept or deny their dream as real. 99% of people accepted their dream as real. This answer (choice mechanism) functioned. But there are a minority of people who refuse to accept their dream as real (spoon boy said "there is no spoon" despite the fact that his senses perceive a spoon). These are the OTHERWISE CONTRADICTORY group of people who deny their dream as real.

Quote:

Architect : ....thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster. Neo: This is about Zion.

So they are quarantined in Zion so that these small group dont spoil the acceptable dream of the 99%. Note that "ergo" means "therefore" which is used to conclude something which was already described/argued. The statements have linear relationship as I described in my first post. "ERGO those that refused the program" was used to conclude that "systemic anomaly should not be unchecked". So they have direct relationship to one another. They are not seperate entities as u argue. So those that refuse the program created the OTHERWISE CONTRADICTORY SYSTEMIC ANOMALY.

Quote:

Architect : While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly,

This answer (ie) the choice mechanism works fine for the 99%, implying that the 99% accept their dream as real (this is normal). 1% are the otherwise contradictory group of people who deny to accept their dream as real(this is abnormal). Anomaly is "otherwise contradictory" or more precisely, the OTHERWISE CONTRADICTION created the systemic anomaly. General rule is that 99% accept their dream as real. The "anomaly" is the "departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method", which is to refuse to accept the dream as real.

Sceintheist,

Im sorry, but you have missed the whole choice mechanism designed into the matrix and I feel it is one of the reasons your theories are flawed.

the choice is to accept the matrix as real or not and nothing more. It has nothing to do with daily interactions of life in the matrix.

The reasons the first matrixes failed is because that choice to wake up was not in place and as pesons rejected the matrix they were not allowed to wake up. This in turn spread like a virus and caused entire crops to be lost as persons learned of the VR envirnoment and rebeled or shut down.


As for anomaly you are mixing words. I never put any continuity on the word anomaly throughout the matrix versions. I simply said that in beyond you can not prove one way or the other that what you are seeing is in the current version of the matrix. It may have been the first matrix that crashed. Anyway anomaly is defined as Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule. The haunted house is obviously a failure in the fabric of the matrix - an anomaly. it has nothing to do with the choice mechanism that produces "The One".

Starbuck

Starbuck,

I see that my choice theory has'nt reached anyone. Well, this is my last try, if u r not convinced of this then there is no point in debating abt anomalies. People say my theories are flawed but they dont concretely prove it wrong. Thats the biggest problem. I'm totally convinced of my choice theory and it makes perfect sense to me and also I'm sorry that my proven theory is not able to reach people. Anyway here's my last try, if it does'nt work out then we'll end this debate.

Quote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. Neo: The Oracle. Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster. Neo: This is about Zion.

See the answer eluded u because there were two problems and two answers in the quote.

1) Architect : No one accepts my program, what shall I do ?
Ans : Use choice in ur program, give the people freedom within the matrix.

2) Architect : I've used choice in my program, but it works only for the 99%. Only 99% accept their dream as real. What abt those who refuse to accept the dream as real ?
Ans : Use the red-pill. Send them to Zion.

Also note that "Beyond" cannot be in the crashed matrix, because the crashed matrix is very perfect. So the houses cannot be possibly screwed up. It must be a choice based matrix because the equations were not balanced.

(Read the architect quote again and u'll see what I'm talking abt. If that does'nt make any sense to u, its best we quit this debate)

Quote:

I see that my choice theory has'nt reached anyone. Well, this is my last try, if u r not convinced of this then there is no point in debating abt anomalies. People say my theories are flawed but they dont concretely prove it wrong. Thats the biggest problem. I'm totally convinced of my choice theory and it makes perfect sense to me and also I'm sorry that my proven theory is not able to reach people. Anyway here's my last try, if it does'nt work out then we'll end this debate.

have you ever stopped to consider that your theory hasnt reached anyone because it is not correct. Im not bashing or anything, Just asking a question? It you make a theory about something like this and no one accepts it then maybe its time to reexamine the theory. It is what the architect does with the first matrix. No one accepted it but he didnt go around stubbornly and say well you just dont get it but I know Im right. He redesigned it and made it better.

Dude, Im glad your theory makes perfect sense to you. Everyone gets something different out of the movies and I think that is great. These movies, like philosophy and life, are a personal journey and if you can make a personal sense out of them that is great. My rationalization of them is different than yours but that does not mean I will stop debating it just because you "dont get it". I dont expect everyone to get it but it is through these debates and the defense of my theories that I gain a deeper understanding of my interpretation and this allows me to evolve my theory.

Quote:

as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level

They were given a choice but a choice of what? It never says, so I dont see how you can use this as empirical proof of your theory. You cant show proof of something with a description that does not exactly define the paramaters of the thing you are trying to define or prove. My view is the choice is to accept or reject the program and your view is the choice of every activity in the daily menusha of life in the matrix. I dont see how your view makes any sense because a VR program, by definition, is an interactive program where you, the user, makes choices about what you do. It is plain to me that the first versions of the matrix were this way also but that humans realized the VR environment was not real and had no escape from that so they shut down or rebeled and entire crops were lost. Once the choice was implemented to escape or not and everyone is aware of that choice at a near unconscious level they have that safety blanket to act or not on the choice to leave. Given that choice most accepted the program with the awareness that they could leave if they chose to do so.

Quote:

2) Architect : I've used choice in my program, but it works only for the 99%. Only 99% accept their dream as real. What abt those who refuse to accept the dream as real ? Ans : Use the red-pill. Send them to Zion

This is a strange quote. You are arguing agianst yourself here.

Quote:

Also note that "Beyond" cannot be in the crashed matrix, because the crashed matrix is very perfect. So the houses cannot be possibly screwed up. It must be a choice based matrix because the equations were not balanced.

version two was not a perfect world. Anyway version one was perfect in its environment but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of how it functioned. version one was a perfect world but the house is a breakdown in the mechanics of the presentation of that world. it is a glitch or a flaw in the program that needed to be repaired. It had nothing to do with equations.

Quote:

(Read the architect quote again and u'll see what I'm talking abt. If that does'nt make any sense to u, its best we quit this debate)

I have read it time and time agian. You need to stop reading into it things that are not there. I feel your resolve weakening. Its ok to admit that you were wrong about a thing. Come on give it a try!


Starbuck

ahah show scientheist whos boss!

perhaps the reason that smith told us in M1 is infact black and white

that the reason people rejected the matrix was simply that we cannot accept a world without hatred,violence and war...something in our genetic predisposition that the machines did not encounter for when designing the first matrix was human blood lust

Starbuck,

I see that the fundamental difference is choice. May be if we could agree upon it, the rest of the things would come easy. And I realize that u are right, at times I'm so stubborn and I expect people to have my mind and to see things the way I see. Thats one of my biggest problems... to expect people to get in synch with me without giving them enough time, amd at times I'm very hasty and impatient. (Honestly, u remind me of my brother...he speaks in the same way to me as u do !)

As we know, the matrix is a lucid dream world rather than a dream world. But the question is whether the matrix was a lucid dream world right from the begining or was it the Oracle's idea ?

The spoon can be bent in matrix v6.0. Meaning, that the matrix is a lucid dream world.

Quote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect

The first matrix is very perfect. If it is perfect, then all the imaginary objects should be an EXACT replica of their real world counterparts. Like for eg, the spoon should be rigid and metallic and it should not be bent by the subject's mind. The spoon can be bent only in ur LUCID DREAMS, not in ur ordinary dreams. So it is logical to conclude that the first matrix was a dream, not a lucid dream. What exactly is the difference between a dream and a lucid dream ? You dont have control over your ordinary dreams, but u have control over ur lucid dreams.

Quote:

Architect : I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.

The failed matrices (architect's matrices) were just a dream. It failed because people started waking up when they got bored with their dream. So the architect sought the Oracle's help. Later versions of the matrix were claimed to be successful. Version 6.0 is a lucid dream as shown in the matrix trilogy. The architect prefers to count from the emergence of a "One" to the next "One". We know that the One is the most powerful lucid dreamer. If all the 6 Ones were lucid dreamers, then all the 6 successful matrices are lucid dream worlds, not a dream world. So it is logical to conclude that the Oracle gave the solution of lucid dreams. Also note that the Oracle is a "mind less bound by the parameters of perfection", so her imaginary objects are not perfect as the architect's, they can be bent as shown in the trilogy.

The Oracle is shown as loving and caring and its my opinion that the Oracle gave the "lucid dreams" in love for humans instead of just a forced dream. I also think that the goddess character shown in Second Renaissance represents the Oracle. You can see how she touches the pod the same way a mother would touch her sleeping baby.

As I said earlier, if u can take control of all the actions in ur dream then its not a dream but a lucid dream. This means that u have full freedom within the matrix. Since the matrix is a lucid dream, we can control our dreams to a greater extent than what we usually do. This gave rise to the "deviations" from the normal order.

Quote:

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth. Neo: What truth? Spoon boy: There is no spoon. Neo: There is no spoon? Spoon boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

A spoon is not supposed to be bent by the mind (as a general rule), but it can be bent if u realize that it is only a part of the lucid dream (ie) You can bend the spoon when u refuse to accept the spoon as real. Now this is a problem to the matrix, because if people started to learn this truth, then everyone will start to do "deviation" lucid-dreaming. Then the matrix will become something like a dream world where anything and everything is possible. When that happens, there is a probability that people can start to think that their reality is in fact just a dream and they might all start to wake up. So those who refuse to accept their dream as real (ie) those who refuse the program must be kept in a seperate place, so that they dont spread this "deviation" lucid dreaming to others. That place is Zion.

Ok now where does choice comes in my theory ?

Quote:

TV Neos: You can't control me! I'm gonna smash you to bits! I'll fuckin' kill you! Neo: Choice. The problem is choice.

Neo realizes that the freedom given within the matrix is choice. The freedom is the ability to control ur dreams, thus ur life.
________________________

Explanation to my previous post :

"I was again frustrated by failure."

The architect's matrix does'nt work, so he sought the Oracle's help. The Oracle is "less bound by the parameters of perfection". She decided to give people "lucid dreams" rather than a forced dream. This is the ANSWER. (Note that the red-pill is NOT the answer in this part of the conversation)

"while this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed"

This ANSWER functioned, but only 99% accepted this.

"if left unchecked might threaten the system itself"

The remaining 1% rejected the matrix and keeping them with the rest of the 99% could escalate the probability of disaster.

Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.
Neo: This is about Zion.

So those that refused the program are given the option of leaving the matrix if they want. This is where the red-pill comes in as u argued.


thoughts ?

to imply that version 6 of the matrix is a lucid dream state would imply that everyone in the matrix has the ablilty to manipulate the matrix to some extent

surely this itself would cause people to reject the matrix code and cause them to "wake up" from the matrix causing massive collapse

but they dont and there isn't

the anomaly wrote:

to imply that version 6 of the matrix is a lucid dream state would imply that everyone in the matrix has the ablilty to manipulate the matrix to some extent surely this itself would cause people to reject the matrix code and cause them to "wake up" from the matrix causing massive collapse but they dont and there isn't

The matrix is a lucid dream environment. The subtley is that most "choose" to ignore it. Only a few choose to pursue the question and still fewer choose to actually realize the truth through the red pill. that is the basic choice mechanism in the matrix.


Scienthiest,

Dude you are kick ass. I believe we could be great friends if we were to meet face to face. Im glad you "chose" to stay with it (sorry bad pun)

Im going to take your points a bit out of order because I think it will flow better for my argument. first of the question of choice.

Quote:

Neo: Choice. The problem is choice. Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. Neo: The Oracle. Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster. Neo: This is about Zion. Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed - its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

These lines show pretty clearly to my mind that the choice mechanism the Oracle came up with was the choice to accept or reject the Matrix VR environment.

first Neo states the problem is choice.
The Architect goes on to describe the history of the matrix. the first two failed. The Architect thought the first one failed because it was to perfect and humans could not accept that. He redesigned it but it failed agian for reasons he could not identify. So the Oracle was tasked with finding an answer. She is a mind less bound by the paramaters of perfection. I take that to mean she was designed to study humans and find out what makes them human. She stumbled on the choice answer. Now here is where we come to a problem because once again the Architect never defines what that choice is:

Quote:

as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level

but I think we can infer some assumptions at this point:

-All versions of the Matrix are a VR simulation for Humans.

-All VR simulations are environments where you, the user, interact with your environment freely by choosing the actions you initiate in the simulation. (ie you have the freedom to walk where you please and do as you please etc.)

-the first two versions of the VR Matrix environment crashed because humans refused to accept the programming.

-The third version and beyond had a choice built into it that allowed humans the choice at a near unconsious level to reject the programming if they wanted.

The last part of the Architects quote says while the choice answer functioned it created a systemic anomaly that could threaten the system itself. Neo replies this is about Zion. From this I think we can infer that the problem was choice. Once that was incorporated into the matrix it stabilized the matrix but created an anomaly that if left unchecked could threaten the system to which Neo states "this is about Zion". It is obvious the choice incorporated into the matrix is about the choice to leave the matrix for Zion. If it was not then the anomaly would be created by events centering around something other than Zion. you see the rest of the Matrix slumbers on as long as the have the comfort of the excape hatch. The few that choose the escape hatch set in motion events that eventually lead to the anomaly.

Now Im going to post something I posted in another thread about the anomaly.

Choice in itself is not the problem. It is the evolution of mind that happens after that choice is made. Choice is designed into the matrix with a purpose - to stabilize the system that otherwise could not be stablized with the paramaters of perfection. It is that random event that happens after the choice is made that is the anomaly - Neos expanded grasp on reality after existing in a computer generated dream world all his life is the anomaly created after the choice is made. It is the definition of his existance and his experiences in the matrix that allow him to grow unfettered into "The One" by expanding his grasp on commitment and reality facilitated by love.

The first two matrixes did not have an anomaly because there was no choice of escape from VR to reality. No choice means no freedom and no freedom means never realizing what true reality is. On the other hand people still knew something was wrong but could not wake up from it. This caused them to shut down and entire crops were lost.

The choice is necessary for the stability of the matrix. Unfortunately that choice mechanism built into the matrix by design allows for an anomaly to form after the choice is made. That anomaly is accounted for in the system of control that guides the anomaly back to the source. The anomaly is unwanted but not unexpected and therfore can be dealt with in an orderly manner.


Now lets take this expanded grasp on reality one step further. This is something I have been toying with and it revolves around Simulara and Simulations. Bear with me a bit.

There are successive phases of any image:

1 It is the reflection of a basic reality.

2 It masks and perverts a basic reality.

3 It masks the absence of a basic reality.

4 It bears no relation to any reality whatever: it is its own pure simulacrum

In the first case, the image is a good appearance: the representation is of the order of sacrament. In the second, it is an evil appearance: of the order of malefice. In the third, it plays at being an appearance: it is of the order of sorcery. In the fourth, it is no longer in the order of appearance at all, but of simulation

Now this is were it gets wierd but follow my reasoning and then let me know what you think. I have stated that I feel the orange code Neo sees is the life force of the machines and that there is sight beyond the physical site we see. What if the world of the matrix is represented by all four of the above Phases of Simulacra. Lets take them in reverse order.

4 It bears no relation to any reality whatever: it is its own pure simulacrum. This is the Matrix itself. The cars and the buildings and the people bear no relation to any reality that exists in the world. It is pure simulation.

3 It masks the absence of a basic reality. This is the green code that Neo sees. It is the mask of basic reality which is the true world of earth where the machines live and zion exists.

2 It masks and perverts a basic reality. This is the real world of earth where the machines live and zion exists. It contains the hovercraft and Neo and Trinity live there. It is the place of the machine city and the scorched sky but it masks true reality.

1 It is the reflection of a basic reality. This is the orange code. It is a reflection of basic reality. It is the actual life force being seen in its true form by Neo.


Ok, Now what do you think?


Starbuck

starbuck,

starbuck wrote:

I believe we could be great friends if we were to meet face to face.

I think the same !

starbuck wrote:

Once that was incorporated into the matrix it stabilized the matrix but created an anomaly that if left unchecked could threaten the system to which Neo states "this is about Zion".

You say that the architect's two matrices failed because the 1% were denied the freedom of leaving the matrix. You also imply that there were powerful lucid dreamers right from the first matrix (like those who refuse to accept the program as shown in v6.0). Then the Oracle stumbled upon the solution choice. Lets say the choice is abt the red-pill (rejection or acceptance of the matrix). It means those 1% are given the option of leaving the matrix. This means that the Oracle's answer is perfect and it was meant to address the concerns of ONLY those 1%. The choice solution is ONLY for those 1%. The Oracle's solution is acceptable and only because of it, the matrix is stable. This means the solution Oracle stumbled upon is FLAWLESS.

Quote:

While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed,

The answer functioned and yet it had a flaw. Why ? You say that the answer is only abt the red-pill, if thats the case then the answer is perfect not flawed.

Lets say the answer is abt some other thing, not the red-pill. When the architect first created the matrix, it was only meant to generate DREAMS to the sleeping people, not giving them a "real" life. Everyone rejected the perfect dream. The architect then mixed the blissful dreams with possibly nightmares. 100% of the people rejected that dream because it was just a dream. The Oracle stumbled upon some answer. The architect incorporated that answer and it functioned, yet it had a flaw. Only 99% accepted the Oracle's answer and 1% rejected it.

Quote:

that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster. Neo: This is about Zion.

So to address the concerns of the 1%, red-pill was used as the solution. See there are 2 questions and two answers as I explained earlier.

1. 100% rejected the matrix. The Oracle's answer is to make people accept the matrix, but only 99% accepted this.

2. The Oracle's answer had a flaw, so a second answer was stumbled upon so that the 1% are given the freedom to leave the matrix if they want.

Quote:

TV Neos: You can't control me! I'm gonna smash you to bits! I'll fuckin' kill you! Neo: Choice. The problem is choice.

TV Neo's are "look ahead modules" (a concept used in AI,games,super computing etc.). They try to predict Neo's responses. Neo could have responded "you cant control me" or "I'm gonna smash you" etc. Neo realises that this FREEDOM within the dream is CHOICE. The freedom within a dream means LUCID DREAM. (so CHOICE = FREEDOM). But the people can exhibit greater degree of control over their lucid dreams. This is the problem... the problem which arised because of freedom (choice) in the matrix.

A famous quote : "You are the creator of your own destiny"

Also note that the movie also expains abt FATE which is not in a machine's control. If you note clearly, a platform inside the ship broke accidentally in M2. That accident killed the operator of the ship. The operator was not able to prevent the crew from a tow bomb attack. That attack killed those guys jacked into the matrix. These guys were responsible for shutting down the power. That forced Trinity to enter the matrix despite Neo's warning. That led Neo to chose the other door. All this happened only because of that little accident (that scene follows just when Morpheus says "there are no accidents"). Thus we can come to the conclusion that "choice is just an illusion", there is no free-will, only determinism and inevitability.

You are thoughts on Simulacra are great, but I need some more time to think over it.

starbuck wrote:

1 It is the reflection of a basic reality. This is the orange code. It is a reflection of basic reality.

THIS IS WHAT I MEANT ! ORANGE-MATRIX IS A SIMULATION IN NEO-REAL STATE ! But still we have to debate to agree on the life force thing. I'll post my thougts abt this on the other thread.

Here's another equation to fathom about=
LIFE=DEATH ergo DEATH=LIFE i.e. in life there is always death but for this equation to be balanced and therefore correct, in death there must also be life. This is a comforting concept to consider, that some way or another our life energies must remain, in this realm or another for the ever-present equation of life to act correctly. Energy, after all, cannot be destroyed and essentially that is what our 'soul' is, merely our life energies.
You can be very scepticle in the way that you perceive the relationship between one's mind and soul, whereby the mind may only be the conscious part of the brain (therefore a bodily function) or rather that it is the soul itself. Personally, I feel that the concept of having both a bodily mind and an unearthly soul to be pointless, why bother? Either the mind is the soul (life energy) or the mind is merely another chemical function, meaning that the soul does not exist. I would prefer the former, but that is just my opinion- because at the end of the day you only have one life. Or do you?

I've been trying to dissect the Architect's speech for information on the anomaly and here's what I think: The anomaly is disbelief in the Matrix.

Quote:

Architect: Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic - creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations. TV Neos: You can't control me! I'm gonna smash you to bits! I'll fuckin' kill you! Neo: Choice. The problem is choice.

From this we know that the anomaly (non-specific) is "systemic" and pervades the whole matrix. If Neo is correct, the problem is "choice" or complications as a result of "choice". I think everyone agrees on this point. We're still trying to figure out what aspect of choice is causing the problem.

Quote:

Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo let's us know in the following line that this statement is referring to Zion. Here is my question with the statement. "If the anomaly is unchecked" Does this refer to having too many disbelievers in the system or to Zion growing too large? I believe Scientheist says that it is about Zion being too large because of the use of the word "ergo" refers to "those that refuse the program" . However, I believe it refers to the disbelief growing too large inside the matrix. Here's why: He refers to the anomaly as "otherwise contradictory." In other words, the anomaly would be contradictory but not in this case. How is it contradictory? You are giving people a choice with the full expectation that they will almost definitely choose to believe the matrix. But in this case, it is not a contradiction because the program was designed this way. So I think the anomaly is disbelief inside the matrix. The result of the choice people have to accept or not accept the matrix. If disbelief grows too large, there will be an "escalating probablitilty of disaster". So the system is checked by allowing disbelievers to leave and hence Zion is created. Now here's my new theory: The One is a disbeliever so great that he threatens the entire system anyway. He is the eventuality of the anomaly meaning that, at some point, someone is going to disbelieve the Matrix so much that he can do whatever he wants in the matrix. This goes along with Starbuck's "lucid dreamer" concept, where the One is someone fully awake inside the dream. If we're to follow this metaphor, the "lucid dreamer", in order to not wake everyone inside the matrix, must be put back into the dream state thus be reinserted.

What are your thoughts?

bachsoffice,

I see that u have fully understood my ideas and yet YOU deduced the theory all by urself , I believe that I only triggered ur thoughts, u worked them out for urself !. This was exactly what I wanted ! To show ppl the way so that the they could figure their way out, just like I did ! (And I still believe my theories to be true, but will give them up if I'm concretely proven wrong). I see that u hv got most of my ideas (though u deduced them by ur self), here are some things which I feel we differ on....

bachsoffice wrote:

If we're to follow this metaphor, the "lucid dreamer", in order to not wake everyone inside the matrix, must be put back into the dream state thus be reinserted.

Note that each and every human within the matrix is a lucid dreamer. Most people believe to accept the matrix as real, so they cannot have any powers. But if u deny ur reality, then u can BEND and BREAK the rules ! Thats how the unplugged do all those hi-fly stunts.

The one is not given much time to cause much trouble to the matrix. If u observe closely, M2 starts with the fact that machines are digging into the earth. Thats the arrangement. The machines immediately start digging into the earth once they know that a One has emerged within the system. In M2, Neo then seeks the Oracle's advice and she guides him to the source. Neo is COMPELLED to walk on his destined path because he is made to believe that if he "fails then Zion will fall".

Regarding the One being put back to the dream state...my opinion is that he will not be, because the One must unplug 23 individuals and rebuild Zion. His "temporary dissemination of code" means that the architect will try to improve his equations bringin them closer to perfection. In computer science, this "iterative" method of solving equations is called "numerical methods". In that method, we use repetitive methods to find the solution for an equation instead of traditional mathematical methods. (Shows how profound the wachowskys are in computers !)

The One will stay with Zion and make them believe in the fake-war and prophecy. After his death, the Oracle will prophecize his return who will hail the destruction of the matrix. (And by the way, you may wanna take a look at the rest of my theories. It is based upon the theories which u deduced and I think u may like it !)

starbuck,

I should have posted this in my earlier post, .... Note that the purpose of the matrix is only to generate dreams to the sleeping people, initially it was not meant to be a Johnny-Quest-world like VR environment. The architect being result-oriented and very mechanical, does only things which he was meant to do (ie) generating just dreams....nothing more and nothing less. But the Oracle loves humans and I believe that she gave people freedom to live within the matrix (lucid dreams) and freedom to leave the matrix(red-pill/Zion)

i think for anyone to say "my theories are right" is a bit arrogant and while your theories are very well thought out...many other people in this forum with differing theories are also very well thought out

this is essentially why the matrix was such a great concept and execution of film making

most films we just leave the cinema and say that was good/crap or whatever...the matrix leaves questions and is open to so many interpretations of its plot and meanings...

anyway...the mention of the choice mechanism in the matrix is perpetuated by the architect and his purpose is the same as the oracles...to ensure the return of the anomaly to the source...

my interpretation of why the anomaly must return to the source is unlike the others plugged into the matrix,the anomaly does not simply ignore or is oblivious to the glitches but instead acts upon them until such a point as he/she is able to create these glitches themselves in the rules of the matrix that they break....this would happen regardless of whether or not the anomalies mind was freed...the freeing of the person is the starting point of luring the anomaly back to the source...the people who free him/her are told of the prophecy...they in turn tell the anomaly who due to his trust of these people will comply with the demands set upon him indirectly...the fact is that it would be unlikely that the anomaly would not obey the agents requests/demands to return to the source as they would appear to be unfriendly,intimidating and cold...and so the unplugged anomaly would not comply and the agents would be incapable to force the anomaly to the source as they would be bound by the rules of the matrix whereas the anomaly would not...

starbuck,

In the other thread (http://matrix-explained.com/php/viewtopic.php?t=2212), u admitted that the agents were only in the stable choice-based matrices (ie) last 6 versions. We see an AGENT IN BEYOND, so "Beyond" is in one of the stable matrix, not the failed matrix. So the definition of anomaly applies here too ! You cannot ignore this part !