»Zion is not another Matrix«

Many people thought Zion was another level of the Matrix, and that's why Neo could stop the sentinels at the end of Matrix reloaded.
I also thought it, but I think Matrix Revolutions refutes that interpretation.
Here is why:
When Neo is blinded and begins to see light forms, it could be interpreted as seeing a kind of code of Matrix level 2 (just like in Matrix he sees the code of Matrix level 1) or as seeing only machines because of his connection with the Source, announced by Oracle. But if he is seeing the code of Matrix level 2, then he should see a light form of Trinity, because she is also represented in Matrix 2. Nevertheless, Neo doesn't see any light form of Trinity (nor the ship), and he must ask her where she is when she is dying. So, I conclude that Neo is not seeing any code of any outer Matrix.
Therefore, the theory of 2 levels has an important negative evidence to explain, and must solve this challenge to remain plausible.
The other theory (that Zion is real, and Neo can see the machines, but not humans, and can destroy sentinels with his thoughts, only because of his connection with the Source) has no negative evidence and lots of positive evidence, and in our hermeneutic analysis of the film would be a much more reasonable account. I have no space and time to explain here the other evidence, but I can expose it later, depending on the other analysts' thoughts.
All this thoughts are framed in a larger proposal: I think the film is coherent and meaningful, and although there are lots of possible interpretations of it (depending on personal beliefs and knowledge), not all interpretations are equally reasonable or plausible. So, there´s no an indubitable revealed Truth (dogmatism), but it´s false that "everything goes" in interpretation (relativism). In the middle of those edges, those Scylla and Charybdis of human thought, we can try to think with rationality. That was the former meaning of philosophy (philos-sophos: friend of wisdom): to oppose the dogmatism of those who neglect all doubts about their "truths", and the fallacious and irrational "everything goes" of sophists.

Best regards,
Logos (from Argentina)
(I´ve posted this in other place of the forum and then I saw this was the right place to post it. Excuse me for the partial duplication)

Hey, there is one scene, where Neo is infront of Trin dying, and Neo tells her something like this: " I wish you could see what I'm seeing( he looks around the Logos) it is as it were all made of light". This clearly shows that neo could see trin and the Logos as in Code or whatever it was he saw blinded. And the reason why Neo could not see trin was just becuase he saw eveything in lights, therefore as trin was too close to him, he couldn't see her.

PiukNeo wrote:

Hey, there is one scene, where Neo is infront of Trin dying, and Neo tells her something like this: " I wish you could see what I'm seeing( he looks around the Logos) it is as it were all made of light". This clearly shows that neo could see trin and the Logos as in Code or whatever it was he saw blinded. And the reason why Neo could not see trin was just becuase he saw eveything in lights, therefore as trin was too close to him, he couldn't see her.

...over the fields.

The ship crashed into The Machine City. Parts of the ship's hull may have been ripped away by this crash. Neo was most likely around through the damaged parts.

Plus, Neo didn't "see" or "feel" anything until the ship was flying over the fields. When they were still flying through the tunnels, he "saw" and "felt" nothing. This clearly shows that Neo could NOT "see" Trin and The Logos.

Also, when they crashed, Neo didn't know where Trin was until she said something. He could not "see" her. He had to rely on his sense of hearing. Furthermore, he had to feel his way around to get to her and then out of the ship. He could not "see" the ship. He had to rely on his sense of touch.


WitM

i already said this in the neos power forum, but it is relevant here also:
Neos powers can be used in the real world because they have been downloaded into him, much the same way smith was downloaded into bane.
after neos visit to the source his powers must have been downloaded + activiated.
The achitecht says something about neo haveing a unique code, but smith is the same, but an opposite, which must mean that smith has a unique code also.
when smith was downloaded into the brain of bane, he became active immediately, neo's powers became active when he had no other choice but to face the machines.
human beings only use 10% of thier brain, or something like that, so it is plausable that neo's powers were downloaded into that section and activated.

Heres how I see it. Neo went into Smith in the first film, destroying him. At that time both Smith and Neo were not very powerful. When Neo went into Smith he got infected slightly by his agent code and Smith got infected by Neo's 'the one' code. Smith didn't go to the source because his Neo infection made him want to disobey the system. Neo's Smith infection gave him the power to stop sentinels because Smith was an agent, perhaps agents have the power to stop machines? Both Neo and Smith get progressively more powerful, what with the flying and infecting and stuff. Sorry if someones already had this idea

jamestwisleton wrote:

agents have the power to stop machines

good point, i seem to recall in the first movie, after neo, trinity and morpheus escaped the rooftop one of the agens said "Deploy the sentinals" so i agree that agents do have the control over machines ...

i don't think that smith can stop machines.

when neo came in agents smiths body he killed him.
after that smith "escaped" from agent smith's body and became smith.

but... the point is that:
neo (he is clearly a human not a programm) was the one all along. he was the one when he was sleeping in matrix before morpheas found him (so you can excuse that morpheas found him [morpheas purpose was to find the one]). and so neo can stop the machines. but i can't find a reason to justify the theory that smith can stop the machines so i discard this theory.

Northerner wrote:

jamestwisleton wrote: agents have the power to stop machines good point, i seem to recall in the first movie, after neo, trinity and morpheus escaped the rooftop one of the agens said "Deploy the sentinals" so i agree that agents do have the control over machines ...

i would agree with this...

it would explain why neo stopped the sentinals in reloaded...or to be more precise,because of his connection with smith it was smith who stopped them

he did it because he wanted to destroy neo himself...

possibly

it is not so much that they have control in the way that Hammy and Neo discuss in the engineering room (can shut them down) but that they are working on the same team for the same goal of stopping those who wish to free other minds. They just do it in different places, one in the matrix (agents) and the other in the desert of the real (sentinels). There is absolutely no substantial evidence to suggest any heirarchical structure between them, to have one is pointless.

Very good point..you stating that Neo and Smith mixed up some powers with each other.

Smith has the ability to stop Sentinels. Why did Bane survive the attack on the ship? Because he could 'signal' the Sentinals not to get him.

Why Bane is in a coma is hard to say. Maybe he just faked it to get on the Hammer without a hussle?

The Anomaly:

Smith stopping the Sentinels because he wants to destroy Neo himself is far-fetched to my opinion.
Smith wants to destroy it all. Neo was just a big obstacle in his way.

come on, if that isn´t the final proove that zion is another matrix. maybe neo didn´t WANT to realize it? (as it would be typical for a human..)

There is no such thing as Zion.

BUT

Its not really a matrix within a matrix either.

The worlds are just metaphors for each other and like many other things represented in the movies they are CONNECTED and they are connected for a REASON.

I don't try and argue for or against a MwM or for the reality of Zion. Its impossible to prove or disprove either. Its the QUESTIONS the connection between the two raises that is important to me. It gives you many ways to consider things such as MEANING, TRUTH and PURPOSE.

The capital words above are the subject of much discussion in the movies. The issue of Zion being real or not is never mentioned. I think the intention of the films is to bring these words into question in the viewers mind not to test if the viewer can work out for sure if Zion is real or not.

diemkai wrote:

Its not really a matrix within a matrix either. The worlds are just metaphors for each other and like many other things represented in the movies they are CONNECTED and they are connected for a REASON.

first, i wouldn´t call zion the matrix within matrix, but the matrix itself would be the matrix within the matrix (=zion). i would also accept a matrix besides a matrix, if I was a machine, it would be INEVITABLE to use this gag of the matrix within matrix, because as we have seen, no-one would suspect..

second, i AM aware of the metaphor, and of course i realize the every "story" has just to be a metaphor for life. but IN the movie there is a computerWorld called matrix and called "unreal". then there is another World called zion/earth/01 etc and called "real". i think withIN the MOVIE the wachowskys showed us, that there ARE many hints that zion COULD be unreal, too, but also the character´s do not seem to give a damn about it. In my opinion THIS is the clue of the trilogy, humans believe what they WANT to believe, nothing more and nothing less. and of course it is about machines knowing that too, and about the simplicity of control (especially of controlling stupid meaning-seeking humans).

diemkai wrote:

I don't try and argue for or against a MwM or for the reality of Zion. Its impossible to prove or disprove either. Its the QUESTIONS the connection between the two raises that is important to me. It gives you many ways to consider things such as MEANING, TRUTH and PURPOSE.

i agree with you saying that finally it is an unproveable question, as it actually is in our "real" life. but the wachowskis showed us this scene of the sentinel flying through neo. so what could they want to say with that except: "you´ll never know if your world is real" ?

they were saying - "this is bloody complicated"!

Only joking - this image tries to visually represesent Neo' connection with the source.

Northerner wrote:

i already said this in the neos power forum, but it is relevant here also: Neos powers can be used in the real world because they have been downloaded into him, much the same way smith was downloaded into bane. after neos visit to the source his powers must have been downloaded + activiated. The achitecht says something about neo haveing a unique code, but smith is the same, but an opposite, which must mean that smith has a unique code also. when smith was downloaded into the brain of bane, he became active immediately, neo's powers became active when he had no other choice but to face the machines. human beings only use 10% of thier brain, or something like that, so it is plausable that neo's powers were downloaded into that section and activated.

Ah you begin to see the light . Indeed, you sense that a program was downloaded into Neo's mind. Most of people conclude that it is the anomaly, but if you read carefully the Architecte's speech, you'll see that (I simplify to the maximum) Neo himself (the sum of his life as he said) is a key (technically a password) that the flawed equation governing the matrix choose to recognize as being his missing part.

So, there is no programming in his mind, simply being himself gives him his powers. He just had to realize it, to believe in it.

So, Neo always had the power in him, but could not use it. To quicken and control the emergence of the anomaly, AI's simply load a program into neo's mind (but don't change it too much or else the key will be corrupted). And that program (that I call the "One") is a program of the highest hierarchy and thus has power on sentinels.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Very good point..you stating that Neo and Smith mixed up some powers with each other. Smith has the ability to stop Sentinels.

Not necesseraly, Smith is like a cop. He can tell to the higher authority that sentinels will be required and then another program in charge for the sentineals decide to accept or not the order. Just like when a cop call for SWATS in emergency or something.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Why did Bane survive the attack on the ship? Because he could 'signal' the Sentinals not to get him.

Roland and the others survived too. And they're not programs.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Why Bane is in a coma is hard to say. Maybe he just faked it to get on the Hammer without a hussle?

Notice that Bane wake up just when Neo wakes up too. Strange coincidence. The same happen when Smith took bane, the following scene was showing Neo waking up suddenly.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

The Anomaly: Smith stopping the Sentinels because he wants to destroy Neo himself is far-fetched to my opinion. Smith wants to destroy it all. Neo was just a big obstacle in his way.

Agreed. The architecte clearly stated twice that Neo was created "by design". To me, Neo's power on machines comes from the program that they loaded in his mind when he died.[/quote]

max82 wrote:

come on, if that isn´t the final proove that zion is another matrix. maybe neo didn´t WANT to realize it? (as it would be typical for a human..)

Note that Neo knows that he must go above clouds to reach 01 just after that sentinels flew through him.
And note, too, machines are still exploding around their vessel despite the fact that Neo is no more concentrating and he's not stretchign out his arm like he always does to destroy them.

According to me, that sentinel just downloaded into him all his data's about 01's defense because that's what the machines wanted, for Neo to come to them. We see that Deus ex try to pretend that they don't need Neo but finally quickly accept the agreement.

Apocryphe wrote:

max82 wrote: come on, if that isn´t the final proove that zion is another matrix. maybe neo didn´t WANT to realize it? (as it would be typical for a human..) Note that Neo knows that he must go above clouds to reach 01 just after that sentinels flew through him. And note, too, machines are still exploding around their vessel despite the fact that Neo is no more concentrating and he's not stretchign out his arm like he always does to destroy them. According to me, that sentinel just downloaded into him all his data's about 01's defense because that's what the machines wanted, for Neo to come to them but pretending that they wanted to stop him. We see that Deus ex try to pretend that they don't need Neo but finally quickly accept the agreement.

max82 wrote:

come on, if that isn´t the final proove that zion is another matrix. maybe neo didn´t WANT to realize it? (as it would be typical for a human..)

Note that Neo knows that he must go above clouds to reach 01 just after that sentinels flew through him.
And note, too, machines are still exploding around their vessel despite the fact that Neo is no more concentrating and he's not stretchign out his arm like he always does to destroy them.

According to me, that sentinel just downloaded into him all his data's about 01's defense because that's what the machines wanted, for Neo to come to them but pretending that they wanted to stop him. We see that Deus ex try to pretend that they don't need Neo but finally quickly accept the agreement.

The sentinel going through Neo is more a conceptual thing. When Neo cut Smith's head, the head falls but Bane still has the head on his shoulders.

So draw your orwn conclusions... the same happened with the sentinel.

THINK OF THIS FACT. IF IN FACT THE ORACLE IN "ENTER THE MATRIX" STATED THAT NEO'S MIND WAS SEPARATED FROM HIS BODY, AND IF SHE WAS TALKING OF THE ACTUAL FACTS AND ACTIONS WHICH HAPPENED (IF SHE WAS LITERALLY SPEAKING), THEN THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR NEO'S MIND TO BE IN "ANOTHER PLACE"(OR BETWEEN THE MATRIX WORLD AND THE MACHINE WORLD), WHILE IN A “SORT OF COMA”, IS THAT THE "REAL WORLD" IS ANOTHER MATRIX.
I'LL EXPLAIN MYSELF, I'LL EXPLAIN THE WHY OF THIS: THINK OF YOU AS BEING IN A MATRIX SIMULATED VIRTUAL WORLD, THEN YOU KNOW THAT AS YOU ARE CONECTED TO IT, YOU ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM, AS MORPHEUS STATED ON MATRIX 1. THEN IF YOU ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM, YOU COULD BE TECHNICALLY SPEAKING CONCIDERED AS A "PROGRAM", PART IT, OR AT LEAST BE "MANIPULATED" AS A PROGRAM IS MANIPULATED.
MY POINT HERE IS THAT IF YOU ARE IN A SIMULATED WORLD, THEN IF YOU FALL INTO A COMA, AND YOU ARE CONECTED TO THE WORLD, THEN YOUR MIND COULD BE "MANIPULATED" BY ANYONE "SUPERIOR" WHO HAS CONTROL OVER THE VIRTUAL WORLD OR IS PART OF THE SYSTEM. IN THIS CASE AND CONTEXT: THE ARCHITECT.
AS I WAS SAYING, YOUR MIND COULD BE "MANIPULATED" AND BE "TRANSFERED" TO ANOTHER PLACE WHITHIN THE ILUSSION WORLD, WHILE YOU ARE IN COMA. THUS IF NEO 'S BODY WHILE IN THE "REAL WORLD" FELL INTO A COMA, AND HIS MIND IS IN ANOTHER PLACE AS STATED BY THE ORACLE IN "ENTER THE MATRIX", THEN THE ONLY POSSIBLE AND LOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR THIS CASE TO TAKE PLACE WOULD BE THAT IN FACT THE REAL WORLD IS ANOTHER SYSTEM, IN WHICH HIS MIND CAN BE "MANIPULATED" OR "TRANSFERED" TO BE ELSEWHERE....OTHERWISE…HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
YOU CAN EVEN LOOK FOR A HINT INSIDE MATRIX 3. THE MEROVINGIAN SAID WHILE TALKING WITH TRIN, MORPHEUS AND SERAPH:
“I AM CURIOUS THOUGHT, ON KNOWING HOW IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED (ON HOW NEO WAS ABLE TO SEPARATE HIS MIND FROM HIS BODY TO “JACK IN” TO THE STAIN STATION). DO YOU KNOW? (IRONICALLY SPEAKING, OF COURSE)
THIS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT HE IS INVOLVED IN THE “WHY” OF NEO’S SITUATION (OR THE ARCHITECT AND THE ORACLE ARE).

YOU DONT HAVE TO TYPE IN CAPS DUDE.

IT SUCKS TO READ ALL CAPS HUH

YES IT DOES