»Is God in the Matrix?«

Is God in the Matrix? Part 1

In The Matrix, the word "God" is only used to swear as in "goddamn." The Oracle tells Neo that he has a good soul. There are no other direct statements related to God.

In The Matrix Reloaded, the word "God" is only used to swear as in "goddamn." There is a prayer meeting at the temple mount. The prayer is really a speech and there is no mention of God.

In The Matrix Revolutions, the word "God" is only used to swear as in "goddamn." The only other time God is used is when the Trainman tells Neo, "Down here, I am God." Seraph, Morpheus and Trinity fight the Merovingian in Club Hell. There are references about The Oracle, prophecies, miracles and the messiah, but they are not directly linked to God.

The Trainman's statement, "Down here, I am God," is inconsistent with the Judeo-Christian monotheistic concept of God. No one can exist independent of God. There can be no place where God does not exist. The statement, I am God, negates the existence of God. It violates the 10 commandments on many levels.

The omission of God in the prayer session in Reloaded may also negate the existence of God. How could a community that has a belief in God or a higher power, have a prayer session for their very survival and not mention God?

The sheer number of times "goddamn" is used in the trilogy questions the existence of God.

Morpheus trains his crew to fight and provides weapons for their missions. He instructs them that anyone who is not "unplugged" is the enemy. He essentially gives them the green light to do what ever is necessary and kill who ever is necessary to further their cause. While the Old Testament has battles that could be seen in the same light, there are also vast teachings in the Bible about the sacredness of life, of how one should not take another's life if at all possible. These types of moral teachings seem to be absent in the Trilogy and there appears to be little or no remorse at the multiple killings that take place.

All of Neo's powers can be explained by his interactions with the machines. Even when he saves Zion at the end, it is just him and the machines. The savior of the human race had no blatant connection to God.

Despite the religious symbolism in the trilogy, the script does not seem to provide much evidence of God and may even suggest that God does not exist.

Is there, however, another way that God can be inferred from the Trilogy?

Part 2...to follow.

God schmod, I always say :p

that should piss off a few people...hehe

Obviously you couldn't look closely enough to see the blatant religious imagery. Like in the meravingion's chateau for example? Or perhaps at the point where he is sitting at pretty much a replica of the last supper by Da Vinci?

Of course the prayer in Zion didn't name God! They want the movie to appeal to as many religious groups as possible. The best way to do that is to be vague about what everything represents, but even so some points are kinda obvious. How about the blatant crucifix when Neo is wiping out Smith in revolutions?

I can't be arsed to listen to any explanations you have. The whole thing is blatantly an artists interpretation of the Christian gospel. If you can't see that you must be blind.

-Bane: God!

-smith: smith will suffice....

Quote:

Morpheus trains his crew to fight and provides weapons for their missions. He instructs them that anyone who is not "unplugged" is the enemy. He essentially gives them the green light to do what ever is necessary and kill who ever is necessary to further their cause. While the Old Testament has battles that could be seen in the same light, there are also vast teachings in the Bible about the sacredness of life, of how one should not take another's life if at all possible. These types of moral teachings seem to be absent in the Trilogy and there appears to be little or no remorse at the multiple killings that take place.

Yet there are massive references to killing in the Bible. "Those who will not live by the law shall die by the law" Moses actually kills half the freed Jews with the tablets that read "Thou shalt not kill." In the bible, God kills people left and right for reason's that seem whimsical, i.e. Job's family, the First Born sons of the Egyptians, etc. . .

are we supposed to get a message about the message of the sanctity of life? It seems that the Bible says that a person's life is sacred as long as that person believes in the Hebrew God. And don't get me started on the Catholic Church and the Muslims. So yeah, I would say that Morpheus's training goes right in hand with organized religion. If you condemn the Matrix, and Grand Theft Auto, and whatever for those murders, condemn the Bible and the Koran as well. Or you could blame the murderers instead, you holier-than-thou piece of crap! I'm tired of hearing how hollywood is destroying societies morals and how religion is the answer of all things. If you believe in Jesus, follow his teachings. Judge not! Remove the plank from thine own eye! Let he that is without sin cast the first stone! I believe very much in the teachings of Christianity. I also believe that they are being horribly distorted by shallow minded hypocrites that don't truly understand what they mean. Stop demanding that God be praised all the time! Find God in yourself. That is what I believe is the one "religious" message in the Matrix (and I do have plenty of support for this). I think those that know that they are good and children of God don't need to blabber out so much how righteous they are. That's somewhere in the Bible too.

Regardless whether God exists or not, God did exist in the world of the Matrix, infact before it was even conceived. Prior to the war against the machines (as seen in the Second Renaissance) scenes where mankind's soldiers are seen to be praying to God, their last hopes for victory. So mankind did have a religious tendency before the machines took control. Most probably, Humans forgot about Christ as almost every aspect of normal civilized life was destroyed in the apocalypse.

heres a controvertial theory...

perhaps the humans in the real world have yet to determine whether or not the existance of god and religion inside the matrix was simply a way to control the masses

then again there does seem to be a large number of people dressed religously in reloaded bearing gifts for neo...prhaps this was symbolism of sacrifices

also...although there are clearly books in the real world...there are no indications of a bible...

the only reference to religion in the real world that i picked up on was in enter the matrix when ghost says to niobe

"like augustine i am dedicated to a higher purpose"

sfa wrote:

Is God in the Matrix? Part 1 The sheer number of times "goddamn" is used in the trilogy questions the existence of God.

The word "Goddamn" is used in real life many times also. According your your logic, this means that God is questionable in the real world also.

Secondly, Goddamn shows that God is believed in. "Goddamn this country" is a request to God to damn this country. So doesn't the use of Goddamn in the Matrix (and real life for that matter) show that the users of the word beleive in God?

Also, there are probably a whole load of Disney films that have no mention of God. Does that mean these are Godless films?

I believe the only God or Godlike figure either in the Matrix or the Real world is "The Architect". I believe that religion inside the matrix is another form of control, which The Architect designed.

I any of you have read Jean Baudrillard's book Simulacra and Simulation, you will know that God is a Simulacra and that religion is the simulation. Therefore God Does not exist only The Architect.

On what basis does baudrillard say God does not exist? Perhaps someone can put this philosophy in laymans terms. I don't mind if it takes a long post - if it means we get some basic understanding it'll be worth it.

god sent the flood and wiped out all the humans except for a few.

mabey the matrix and the coming of the machines is a new 'plague' designed to teach humans about co-operationa and how to work together.

Zion is the ark...

Why don't we try looking at things from a Gnostic standpoint.
1.The Gnostics believed that God was everwhere and nowhere. At the same time, God was unknowable and unreachable. We are like dustmites on a brontosaurus.
2. One of the main ideas of Gnosis is that the universe is split into two worlds, spirit(pnuma) and matter(hyle). The sprit world is pure, matter is evil. The world of matter is presided over by a false god, Jaldaboath(who is also known as Jehovah, YHVH, etc). This character is most clearly represented as the Architect.
3. Another aspect of Gnosis is dualism. The apple from the tree of knowledge in the Chistian bible would make Adam and Eve as God, knowing both good and evil(erit sicvt Devs, stipendivm bonvm et malvm).
4. The purpose of Gnostic life is to escape from the world of matter and return the 'Divine Spark,' or soul to the true God. In the way are 'Archons' evil spirits who have lost their way, and would want to stop anyone else from attaining freedom, see Agents Smith, Johnson, blah blah.
Even after escaping the Matrix, one would still have to escape from the 'real world,' where presumably, to kill at will would be frowned upon

shadowbuilder wrote:

1.The Gnostics believed that God was everwhere and nowhere.

a tie directly to the film when morpheus says to neo about the agents

"they are everyone...and they are no-one"

take from it what you will

I love the way several people say they understand Baudrillard and that he is really important to the film. Yet no one is able to explain what Baudrillard's philosophy says. No one even tries!

It is even a well known fact that Baudrillard says that the matrix is a misunderstanding of his philosophy.

Both gnosticism and orthodox christianity on the other hand have tons of connections with ideas in the movie. It is worth pointing out that the gnostics generally had pretty similar ideas to orthodox christians only they used stories to explain theology symbolically while orthodox christians take things more literally. The gnostics weren't even convinced that Jesus' resurrection was literal and many of their books claimed that he only appeared to people afterwards in a spiritual form.

Fatpie42 wrote:

I love the way several people say they understand Baudrillard and that he is really important to the film. Yet no one is able to explain what Baudrillard's philosophy says. No one even tries! It is even a well known fact that Baudrillard says that the matrix is a misunderstanding of his philosophy. Both gnosticism and orthodox christianity on the other hand have tons of connections with ideas in the movie. It is worth pointing out that the gnostics generally had pretty similar ideas to orthodox christians only they used stories to explain theology symbolically while orthodox christians take things more literally. The gnostics weren't even convinced that Jesus' resurrection was literal and many of their books claimed that he only appeared to people afterwards in a spiritual form.

i like the fact that baudrillard said that the w brothers completely misinterpreted his work

Fatpie42 wrote:

I love the way several people say they understand Baudrillard and that he is really important to the film. Yet no one is able to explain what Baudrillard's philosophy says. No one even tries!

even i have felt the need for a discussion on baudrillard. please start a topic abt it fatpie(dont ask me y i cant to do it - ur the philosophy student, right?). but have u read hanley's latest essay on the official matrix site? he says postmodernists in general and baudrillard in particular are simply poseurs or say nonsensical stuff. i too find no sense in the mechanics of baudrillard's simulation. anyway we'll discuss that on the philosophy section.

Quote:

The Trainman's statement, "Down here, I am God," is inconsistent with the Judeo-Christian monotheistic concept of God. No one can exist independent of God. There can be no place where God does not exist. The statement, I am God, negates the existence of God. It violates the 10 commandments on many levels.

does anyone else find this uproariously funny? my dear sfa, the trainman saying he's god is not a denial of monotheism. its simply his way of saying that he's omnipotent in that particular place, or that he created it.

Sorry but I have done NO courses which have dealt with Baudrillard. Well I did a course called "introduction to the study of religions" for theology which briefly mentioned his ideas on signs, but that seems pretty irrelevant to "Simulation and Simulcra".

I would REALLY like it if someone told me his ideas. I can talk about Decartes, Berkeley and Hume til I'm blue in the face, but I don't know about Baudrillard.

umm, i dont think a post-modernist scholar is going to show up and explain baudrillard to us. if there was a postmodernist on this forum we would have seen his opinion by now. but atleast we can try to understand it ourselves. and having a seperate topic abt simulacra and simulation will certainly increase the chances of a postmodernist posting, wont it? so please post ur own understanding of baudrillard. i cant make head or tail of it, and have only a few objections to his theory of simulacra.

umm, i dont think a post-modernist scholar is going to show up and explain baudrillard to us. if there was a postmodernist on this forum we would have seen his opinion by now. but atleast we can try to understand it ourselves. and having a seperate topic abt simulacra and simulation will certainly increase the chances of a postmodernist posting, wont it? so please post ur own understanding of baudrillard. i cant make head or tail of it, and have only a few objections to his theory of simulacra.