»Seraph, the wingless judas«

All the previous one's thought they were going to the source when they met the architect INSIDE the matrix. Why would they ever leave the matrix?

Smith is a program and he can bend the rules just like Neo. He does this thanks to the copied code he got from Neo. So he is a One, just a negative One.
It would be more logical to think that the Merovigian was a previous negative One; that would explain that he can still be a program.

The Matrix is a huge program ("..99% accepted the PROGRAM") and only the humans are part of that program. When humans do not accept the program and become a rebel, they break free from the equation. A flaw/gap occurs in the equation, so it is unbalanced. The anomaly is a result of the continuation of this flaw. So therefore only a human can be a 'One'.
Programs like the Oracle and agents are sub-programs which run within the Matrix to help maintain the system; they are not part of the equation itself.

As for Seraph:
The Merovingian was first an angel, later he became Satan and took 1/3 of the angels from God (Deus Ex Machina) with him to the earth (the Matrix). I think Seraph was one of these angels. Later on he began to loath Mero and he was set free by the Oracle. Or maybe he sold his wings to be set free by Mero (after he consulted the Oracle just like Rama); they call him Judas because afterwards he turned to the Oracle and gave her information about Mero's empire.
He has the gold color, because he was created directly by the Source and not by the Architect. Mero is probably gold too (a shame we didn't get to see that).

That's a really bad deal for Seraph. Mero (Satan) wants him dead, and Deus Ex (God) wants him dead. He's by himself!

AgentSmithClone wrote:

That's a really bad deal for Seraph. Mero (Satan) wants him dead, and Deus Ex (God) wants him dead. He's by himself!

Could be in your perspective yes.
But I red somewhere in a very good post that Seraph stands for awakeness in a kind of trinity.

Oracle = the truth
Seraph = awakeness
Sati = joy

So I guess he 'woke up' and realised that only love and peace is the solution to it all.
So he went to protect and assist what mattered most: the Oracle and Sati.

Fatpie,

No one really knows who the One can be. The One is an ACCIDENT in the matrix. To find the One, the machines use Zion/prophecy and fake-war. Zion serves another purpose : to quarantine those who refuse the program.

People like Morpheus are made to believe in the fake prophecy. They unplug all those who refuse to accept the matrix as real. The intention of the prophecy-believing Zionites is to find the One. But in the process, they effectively unplug those who refuse the program.

btw, bachsoffice has a thread on anomaly. You may wanna chk it out.

Fatpie42 wrote:

All the previous one's thought they were going to the source when they met the architect INSIDE the matrix. Why would they ever leave the matrix?

Because the powerful lucid dreamers ("those who refuse the program") should not be left unchecked. They are checked in Zion. Zion is a form of control to identify and bring the One back to the source.

So if the one does not need to leave the matrix in order to reach the source why would he ever have the leave the matrix?

Only Neo ever went to the Deus Ex Machina so they wouldn't have gone there.

What exactly are you blabbering about you silly person

Fatpie42 wrote:

So if the one does not need to leave the matrix in order to reach the source why would he ever have the leave the matrix?

I've answered that question in my last post

Fatpie42 wrote:

What exactly are you blabbering about you silly person

Seems you lack the powers of concentration or may be I'm just "incomprehensible" to you. I've already given you my answers. If u dont like them try figuring them out by yourself ! I'll end my debate with u.

I didn't see your post scientheist. I was reading Mobil Ave.'s.

That said I think that since the whole point of my statement was that the One could just be a program and need not be human, this answer doesn't really help:

"Because the powerful lucid dreamers ("those who refuse the program") should not be left unchecked. They are checked in Zion. Zion is a form of control to identify and bring the One back to the source."

And that's before I even comment on the fact that it is the stupid lucid dreamer's argument which I find completely averse to common sense.

I think that Neo was the first HUMAN 'one' because the architect says that his attachment to the human race is much more specific while the others only had that attachment to 'facilitate the purpose of the one'.

Fatpie42 wrote:

So if the one does not need to leave the matrix in order to reach the source why would he ever have the leave the matrix? Only Neo ever went to the Deus Ex Machina so they wouldn't have gone there. What exactly are you blabbering about you silly person

He first has to leave the Matrix offcourse in order to unbalance the equation. When he hacks into the Matrix again, he is still part of this equation. He now only belongs to the unstable part of the equation: the part that is going to be mathematical unsolvable. That's why they want him to insert his code. He is not solved in anyway...he just initiates a totally new equation by inserting his code at free will.
Only in this sixth cycle the anomaly-code was able to solve itself within the equation.

I think that programs do not take part in the equation. The equation is designed only to co-ordinate human minds.
I think the Oracle can only see the future of the humans, because they are linked to this equation.
The woman at the restaurant who gets the programmed cake from Mero is part of the equation. So that's how the Oracle knows they have a chance at getting the Keymaker. The Oracle cannot see the Merovigian's future, because he is not linked to the equation.

So why does he have to LEAVE the matrix; as in, get out of his pod and walk around? What would that acheive? He needs to go to realise his powers and see the architect but he doesn't have to leave in order to do that, does he?

Fatpie42 wrote:

So why does he have to LEAVE the matrix; as in, get out of his pod and walk around? What would that acheive? He needs to go to realise his powers and see the architect but he doesn't have to leave in order to do that, does he?

Offcourse he has to leave. That's his first step in non-accepting the Matrix. If he would still be connected to the Matrix while excersizing such powers, the agents could posess him and let him kill himself.

It is logical to let him first wake from the Matrix before he can ever analyze it and manipulate it.
He has to train before he can utilize his powers; during this training process the agents would have noticed him and killed him.

Once he can understand his powers surely it doesn't matter where he is plugged in? Why would he HAVE to leave - that's silly.

Very good question.

Answer- so the viewers can see Zion. Haha

Fatpie,

Before I continue my debate, answer these questions

1. Is Zion built by the humans or machines ?

2. Why do the machines REBUILD Zion (or allow Zion to be rebuilt) ?

3. Zion is destroyed when the One returns to the source. It is rebuilt and will be destroyed when the next One unites with the source. What do u infer ?

4. Do u think the war between the machines and Zion is real ?

5. Is the prophecy true ?

6.How do u explain these quotes :

Architect : While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

Neo: This is about Zion.

....

Architect : Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication - a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One

Note that the "function of the One" is to return to the source.

7. Who exactly is the One ? is it some person/program who develops super fast kung fu skills or is he a human, who according to the prophecy, will end the war ? (Note that I'm not ruling out the possibility that a program can develop kung fu skills equivalent to that of Neo. But does it mean that the program is the One ?)

1. Is Zion built by the humans or machines ?
We never see that. I presume it would be humans.

2. Why do the machines REBUILD Zion (or allow Zion to be rebuilt) ?
To find the anomaly. They can't destroy the anomaly so they use humans to find it,

3. Zion is destroyed when the One returns to the source. It is rebuilt and will be destroyed when the next One unites with the source. What do u infer ? That if people survived to see this constant repitition of finding the anomaly again and again they would smell a rat.

4. Do u think the war between the machines and Zion is real ?
The war between humans and machines is real. The humans are really trying to save as many people from the matrix as they can.

5. Is the prophecy true ?
The prophecy of "the one" saving Zion was never true until Neo.

6.How do u explain these quotes :

Architect : While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

Neo: This is about Zion.

What do you want explained? Once Zion has the one helping them they begin converting more people than ever before - Morpheus tells us that they have freed more minds in the past 6 months than in the past 6 years (is that the right timescale?). That is the "escalating probability of disaster" isn't it?
....

Architect : Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication - a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One

Note that the "function of the One" is to return to the source.

they were based on a similar pedication "by design" - Neo is like that anyway because he IS human. The other ones were 'designed' to have an attachment to mankind.

Neo is a combination of man and human and that is what makes him special.

7. Who exactly is the One ? is it some person/program who develops super fast kung fu skills or is he a human, who according to the prophecy, will end the war ? (Note that I'm not ruling out the possibility that a program can develop kung fu skills equivalent to that of Neo. But does it mean that the program is the One ?)
You already know what I am going to say from the way you have worded the question. The previous ones could easily be programs. I think Neo's humanity is what makes him special, but I am open to alternatives. Why MUST the previous ones be human?

I never knew that our opinions could differ so Fatpie. Anyway....here is my interpretation. Give your opinions, especially Fatpie and Scientheist.

1. Is Zion built by the humans or machines ?
ANS- Zion is rebuilt in every version by the humans. But who built it first? We dont know but I expect it to be the machines.

2. Why do the machines REBUILD Zion (or allow Zion to be rebuilt) ?
ANS- Zion has to be rebuilt because it is essential to the existence of the matrix, the machines and the human race. Those are all interconnected. Zion serves as a quarantine area for the rebels and as a tool to find the One.

3. Zion is destroyed when the One returns to the source. It is rebuilt and will be destroyed when the next One unites with the source. What do u infer ?
ANS- Whats to infer? Its a cycle. Just like the Matrix is destroyed and reloaded, so is Zion.

4. Do u think the war between the machines and Zion is real ?
ANS- Of course.

5. Is the prophecy true ?
ANS- The prophesy isnt true until Neo comes and then also it is only partially true. Neo saves Zion but does not destroy the Matrix and does not free the entire human race.

6. Quote question.
ANS- The solution the Architect is talking about is the 99%/1% choice aspect of the matrix. It is flawed because of the 1% which creates an unbalanced equation. The systemic anomaly are the rebels. If the rebels continue to grow, they can threaten the system. Simultaneously, if Neo's powers continue to grow, he can cause a system crash if he doesnt return to the Source (that part isnt mentioned in the quote.

The profound attachment means that the One was meant to like the human race alot so he/she can be coerced into taking the door to the Source. When the One returns to the Source, the system is reloaded and is stabler.

7. Who exactly is the One ?
ANS- The One is the human in the Matrix who has the anomaly code of the Matrix. This code attaches to a human once in every version of the Matrix. Because of this code, the One can defy the rules of the Matrix. This code must be incorporated as part of the system otherwise the system will crash. The One must return his code to the Source.

The questions I raised are key points to understanding the plot of Reloaded. I'd like everyone to give their opinions on it. I agree with most of the things which Akshat said.

Fatpie42 wrote:

1. Is Zion built by the humans or machines ? We never see that. I presume it would be humans.

Ofcourse we never see that. We dont see most of the things, but it does'nt mean we cannot make a logical guess. Imagine Zion v5.0. When the One v5.0 joined with the source, Zion is entirely destroyed. Presumably, all the Zionites are killed. We dont know abt the amount of damage done to the city, so we'll leave it at that.

Now the One v5.0 has to unplug 23 individuals from the matrix. How can 23+1 individuals build a huge underground city like Zion all by themselves without any help ? So, the machines help the humans in building the city.

Fatpie42 wrote:

2. Why do the machines REBUILD Zion (or allow Zion to be rebuilt) ? To find the anomaly. They can't destroy the anomaly so they use humans to find it,

What exactly is the "anomaly" ? Its a vaguely used term, so we'll leave it. We can say that Zion is a TOOL to find the One. What u r accepting is that Zion is a form of control established by the machines ("they use humans to find it").

Why do Zionites unplug humans from the matrix ? Do they know for sure that their "target" could be the One ? The Zionites are made to believe in a fake prophecy. (I'm referring to M2 plot, so ignore M3 and the end of war). Zionites hunt for people who can bend the rules of the matrix. They are the possible candidates for becoming the One. So the Zionites unplug these rule benders and train them. No knows for sure who the One could be. Not even the Oracle (and I'll quote her if u want). Naturally, most of the matrix-born who can bend the rules will be unplugged. This is exactly what the machines wanted. Those who bend the rules are a "disease" within the matrix. If they are not unchecked, then they may destabilize the system. So they are quarantined in Zion. This is the PURPOSE of Zion. (you can take the Architect's quote as proof).

btw, my lucid dreaming theory is that some people can develop super powers within the matrix. There are people like the spoon boy who can bend a spoon with his mind and Zionites who can do amazing kung-fu.

Fatpie42 wrote:

3. Zion is destroyed when the One returns to the source. It is rebuilt and will be destroyed when the next One unites with the source. What do u infer ? That if people survived to see this constant repitition of finding the anomaly again and again they would smell a rat.

Means u say that Zionites will discover that Zion is a form of control and the prophecy is just a lie.

What I infer is that Zion serves two purpose

1. To quarantine those who refuse the program (as I mentioned earlier)

2. It is destroyed when the One is found, so Zion serves another purpose of finding the One (as Akshat correctly put it)

Zion will be destroyed once the One is identified. At the end of M1, agents discovered that Neo had become the One. At the begining of M2, we see that the machines are digging. So what we can conclude is that the machines will start to dig once they identify the One. Zion will be destroyed no matter what the One chooses (to unite with the source or not to). (I'm not going at M3 plot, I'll come back to that later)

This is how I interpret the architect's second quote. (will be explained below)

Fatpie42 wrote:

The war between humans and machines is real. The humans are really trying to save as many people from the matrix as they can.

How can it be real when it has already ended five times ? If the machines see a clear threat from Zion, why would they allow it to exist ? They completely wiped out the surface because they saw a clear threat from the humans. Why cant they do the same if they think that Zion is a threat ?

As for the second part of your answer : do u think that Morpheus and co. will go offering the red pill to everyone they meet ? Or do u think that an unplugged individual will help the army of Zion to destroy zero/one ? The only of hope of Zionites to end the war is prophecy (and not an invasion on the surface). So, Morpheus and other prophecy believing fools will try to find a rule bender with the hope that he could be the one.

Fatpie42 wrote:

5. Is the prophecy true ? The prophecy of "the one" saving Zion was never true until Neo.

Morpheus : When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth: 'As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free.' After he died the Oracle prophesized his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, bring freedom to our people.

The Oracle wants the end of the war. But what she means is the end of the hatred and NOT the war. The original prophecy involves destruction of the matrix. The Oracle would never want that. So the prophecy is a lie. (I'll explain my view on M3 later)

Fatpie42 wrote:

What do you want explained? Once Zion has the one helping them they begin converting more people than ever before - Morpheus tells us that they have freed more minds in the past 6 months than in the past 6 years (is that the right timescale?). That is the "escalating probability of disaster" isn't it?

This is what you have missed !

Architect : Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

Neo: This is about Zion.

Those that refuse the program should not be left unchecked. They are checked in Zion.

Fatpie42 wrote:

they were based on a similar pedication "by design" - Neo is like that anyway because he IS human. The other ones were 'designed' to have an attachment to mankind.

I dont get what u r trying to say. But the predication is the "contingent affirmation" or "an assertion on a possible occurence" (ie) the prophecy. Do u remember this quote ?

Neo : What happens if I fail ?

Oracle : Then Zion will fall.

This prophecy created a profound attachment to the mankind. It forced Neo to walk on his destined path and reach the door of light. (ie) If Neo does not goto the Architect's room, then Zion cannot be saved. This is the "design".

All the Ones were based on this "design" - goto the Architect's room and save Zion. The One is an accident within the matrix. He is a human and to find him, the machines use Zion. May be the One can be identified using other means, but so far, all the Ones were identified and brought back to the source using Zion. So all the Ones must be humans because they were "designed" to have an attachment to "saving the mankind".

It makes totally no sense for the One to be a program. Again, I'm not calling the One as some one who can do super-fast kung fu. The One is a human prophecized by the Oracle. He was believed to bring an end to the war. Programs can develop super-fast kung fu. Like Seraph and Smith for example. But they are not the One. They are just programs and they have nothing to do with being the One or the prophecy.

Fatpie42 wrote:

Neo is a combination of man and human and that is what makes him special.

Thats just an assumption.

Fatpie42 wrote:

Why MUST the previous ones be human?

Why must a program be the One ? If the program is the One, then will it work with Zionites, believe in the prophecy and try to destroy the matrix ? Will it be "attached" to the humans ?

Note that all other Ones walked on their destined path ONLY with the intention of saving the human race. If they are not humans, does it make any sense that they will try to destroy the matrix and help Zionites ?

Hello,
After watching all 3 Matrix films, I have felt a strange affinity with Seraph more than anyone else inlcuding Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, Smith etc...I think he is the best character in my opinion. I wish that we ccould have met Seraph sooner so he could have kicked everyones ass.
Why wasn't Seraph in the first Matrix? I thought that he was the protector of the Oracle. The only other reason I can think of is that he was working for the Merovingian at the time, but sources tell me that he left the Merovingian quite early on (maybe around the end of the 1st Matrix/start of the 2nd Matrix)

scientheist wrote:

Presumably, all the Zionites are killed. We dont know abt the amount of damage done to the city, so we'll leave it at that.

I think everything is erased, remember the Architecte :"Zion is about to be destroyed - its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence
eradicated."
To me, it is obvious : nothing is left, not even a dust.

scientheist wrote:

We can say that Zion is a TOOL to find the One.

I understood it another way : people refusing the programs must be freed or else they'll threaten the system. So, freeing people will help the Matrix to live longer, to postpone the advent of the One if you prefere.
Machines don't kill the freed people, because they need that humans connect themselves freely to the matrix from time to time so that the equation is temporarily re-equilibrated. Every freed human that does not come back in the matrix increase the anomaly.
Indeed, killing all the rebel minds would accelerate the crashing of the matrix.

scientheist wrote:

So, Morpheus and other prophecy believing fools will try to find a rule bender with the hope that he could be the one.

I don't know, the Architecte never talked about the prophecy, just as if it didn't exist. The prophecy is made by the Oracle, so maybe that it is "her" way to control humans for her own purpose. Finally, I am wondering if the Oracle is not simply a program meant to find the One.
I agree witht the fact that the prophecy is a lie though.

scientheist wrote:

It makes totally no sense for the One to be a program.

On the contrary. The One and the anomaly are two different things. The One came from the source (the anomaly does not come from the source) and is meant to control the human that will host the anomaly.
Remembern the Oracle said to Neo (in M1) that he was not the One but that he would be "in next life maybe". When Neo died, Machines loaded the "One" program into Neo's brain to bring him to do what they wanted him to do.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Nope....in Revolutions, the Oracle is shown to have green code. Anyway....Sati. Her original machine Purpose is none. She doesn't have a Purpose. She was created by her parents out of LOVE, not Purpose. At the end of Revolutions, the machines pity her and give her a purpose- the sunrise/sunset thing. Atleast thats what I always thought. As for Sati's purpose in the movie- She's there to show that programs are evolving out of Purpose and are being created out of Love. She's there to foreshadow the fact that Neo will make a sacrafice for love. She's also there to help Neo realize that machines are evolving too and that he must make a peace. As for why Sati is so important- She could be important because she helps Neo realize he must make a peace. I didn't think that was the case. Actually, I think that the reason she is so important has not been given to us yet.

Why should the Oracle sell her code if Sati it later it not needed?

A friend on my school says that every programm IN the Matrix knew the Merv. How then comes they in the Matrix?: by the Merv.

I agree with that Sati shows Sati machines having 'love' to

The Oracle said Sati should be important for both their world but that she didn't know why. It is in the "enter the matrix" game

Apocryphe wrote:

I don't know, the Architecte never talked about the prophecy

By "Contingent affirmation" (An assertion on a possible occurence), the Architect indirectly refers to the prophecy. Note that the contingent affirmation (prophecy) creates a profound attachement to the mankind.

scientheist wrote:

By "Contingent affirmation" (An assertion on a possible occurence), the Architect indirectly refers to the prophecy.

When does the architect ever refer to a contingent affirmation? What the hell would a necessary affirmation be anyway? I'm not sure that "contingent affirmation actually means anything. Certainly not in English anyway.

Architect : Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication - a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One.


Here's what I found in Webster....

Contingent :

1 [Obs.] touching; tangential
2 that may or may not happen; possible
3 happening by chance; accidental; fortuitous
4 unpredictable because dependent on chance
5 dependent (on or upon something uncertain); conditional
6 Logic true only under certain conditions or in certain contexts; not always or necessarily true
7 Philos. not subject to determinism; free


affirmation

1 the act of affirming
2 something affirmed; positive declaration; assertion
3 Law a solemn declaration, but not under oath: permitted to one who has conscientious objections to taking oaths

well the "predication " word tells it all. I didn't find the word in my engl/French dictionnary, but in french predication means preaching, so he is obviously talking about the prophecy.