»Seraph, the wingless judas«

There's been a lot of interesting discussions lately about Seraph. As Starbuck pointed out, the Merovingian calls him a "little Judas" and one of the Merovingian's henchmen calls him "wingless." He also owes some enormous debt of gratitude to the Oracle from comments in the game "Enter the Matrix". And he is charged with "protecting that which is most important". These comments suggest that Seraph has an interesting history that is otherwise completely unexplained and unexplored in the movies.

The "little Judas" comment implies that he betrayed the Merovingian or someone close to the Merovingian in the past. This would also imply that he worked with or for the Merovingian at some point because there had to be some kind of relationship to betray. Another possibility is that the Merovingian is referring to Seraph betraying the Source or the Machines. This would explain the "wingless" comment because his betrayal to the Machines would have caused him to be cast out, thus a fallen angel.

Somebody (I can't remember who, sorry) pieced together an interesting story that Seraph used to serve the Merovingian, but was released from his servitude by the Oracle, hence his "debt of gratitude". This is a very good story that would explain almost everything, but I find it hard to believe that Seraph ever worked for Mero. Although he might have been forced to.

Here's another little tidbit: Seraph says his purpose is to protect that which is most important. When we first meet him, he is protecting the Oracle. However, in Revolutions, he seems to be protecting Sati. Did Sati become more important than the Oracle at some point? Is this a hint that there's a lot more to Sati also? Also, perhaps Seraph used to protect Mero when Mero was "most important".

Anyway, comments on the whole Seraph story or different theories? Any idea why there would be all these little hints with no explanation in the movies? I've heard the whole Seraph was a former "One" argument but I don't buy it. And the Gold Code thing is interesting too, but it is relevant or just a device used to show that Seraph is a "different kind of program"?

maybe the "eyes of the Oracle" pass on from program to program.. so Seraph protects whoever will be the Oracle for that cycle.. it used to be Merovingian, then the Oracle we know, next Sati


that's a real big stretch, however... real big.



the only reason I think that could work was when Persephone told Neo that the Merovingian used to be like Neo at first.. which could have meant that he used to be able to see the future

I don't really think the Eyes of the Oracle are getting passed around. And as for the Mero once being like Neo because he could once see the future, I don't think Neo could ever see the future and he never actually possessed the Eyes.

You bring up a good question, though, In what way was the Merovingian once like Neo? It's a mysterious reference that Persephone made. And a big huge topic in a bunch of threads. I think the inference was that she was referring to the fact that Neo loves Trinity as much as The Merovingian once loved Persephone. She could also be reffering to The Merovingian once being a good guy or a hero like Neo. Some people take this statement as a hint that Mero was once a "One" which I disagree with. However, this is a wide-open comment that remained unexplored in the rest of the movie.

I think he calls him Judas, because he betrayed him directly.

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Hel Club - VIP lounge) Merovingian: What in the hell? *laughs* I don't believe this. Merovingian: *to the DJ* Hey. Hey! *to Seraph* The prodigal child returns. L'ange sans ailes (Trans: The angel without wings). Are you here for the bounty, Seraph? *laughs heartily*

In the Matrix movies I would say that the Merovingian represents Satan. In Judeo-Christian mythology Satan was at first among the angels closest to God. Over time he grew resentful and jealous and revolted against
God taking several angels with him to fight. Of those angels that fought with him most were of the order of Seraphim. Satan was then cast out of heaven, and became basically man's adversary. The Merovingian works
in much the same fashion. He is an exile and as the Oracle says "he is one of the oldest of us", probably alluding to the fact that the Mero was among the original angels. Many other things point to him being representative of Satan. One is that in Revolutions we can see that he rules over the "Hell" club. Another is that he has surrounded himself with other exiles that are commonly given evil connotations (i.e. vampires, werewolves, and ghosts(the Twins)). He also is attached to Persephone, who in Greek mythology was abducted by Hades and eventually an agreement was reached that she spend 6 months in the underworld and 6 months out. Being that the Mero. is attached to Persephone, it implies he is a Hades/Satan figure. When
Persephone tells Neo that "he was once like you" I think this is an allusion to the fact that Mero. was once an angelic being. Mero also controls the Trainman, who is analogous to the ferryman who carted people between
the real world and the underworld. He keeps Neo in a sort of Purgatory or Limbo between worlds.

This brings us to Seraph (short for Seraphim). He most likely was an ally of Mero's during the revolt against God, but later decided not to continue his service to him. That is why he is referred to as "the prodigal son"
and "my Judas" by Mero. The fact that he is referred to as wingless may represent the fact that he lost his wings during the fall after the heavenly revolt or perhaps he had to give them up as part of his choice to leave
Mero in the same way the oracle made a choice to give up her shell to help Sati.

Gmills,

I agree with you on your interpretation of the Merovingian (see my half-billion other postings on the Merovingian in other threads, it seems like all my threads eventually lead back to the Merovingian). If there was a "heavenly revolt" in the Matrix history, was Seraph on Mero's side or the Architect's (would they be the one's in conflict?)? I like Oscar's answer that he must have worked for the Merovingian at some point because he, in fact, "returns".

Score on your theory about Seraph losing his wings to Mero as a price paid for some kind of help. That would be a very cool plot twist/relationship between the two.

By the way, Seraph is not short for Seraphim, Seraphim is the plural of Seraph, like Cherub and Cherubim.

I'm trying to piece together the story of this history between Seraph and Mero, and, at the same time, I'm trtying to figure out why these details are blurted out, yet the history is not revealed. I have the strong feeling that there will be some kind of "official Wachowski brothers-sanctioned" version of this story at some point. They obviously have some kind of rather intricate story already created because there are so numerous references to their past.

On one of the cutscenes from "Enter the Matrix" we see that Seraph is in debt to the Oracle for something. This is key to understanding where Seraph comes from. Maybe she helped Seraph escape from THe Merovingian.

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INT. Oracle's kitchen (Matrix). The Oracle is sitting in the shadows by a table. Her face is concealed by darkness, as is the rest of the house, save for the starlight coming in from the windows. She appears to have just set a fresh cigarette in the ashtray on the table with her frail hand. Seraph enters the kitchen without a sound. ORACLE: Thank you for coming so quickly. SERAPH. You have no need to thank me. I am forever indebted to you. ORACLE: It is now I that needs your help.

you know Persephone is meant to have stayed 6 months in hell and 6 months out of it?
i think in matrix reloaded she is out of hell, because the chateux is generally a nice place.
in the matrix revolutions she is in the 'hell' club, a more evil looking place.

Oscar,

I agree. I think that the Oracle must have freed Seraph from the Merovingian's service at some point. His wings may have been the price for his freedom. We may never know, but they're good theories.

Manta,

I think the Chateau is still part of the Merovingian's realm. It is modeled after the ancestral home of the real Merovingian kings. Also, in the Greek myth, when Persephone gets to leave the underworld, she gets to go home to her mother. I don't think that Persephone is the actual Greek goddess Persephone who controls the winter and spring. I think her name is just an allusion to let people know she is the Queen of the Underworld. Just like Morpheus is not really the God of Dreams, his name is just an allusion that he navigates through the dream/Matrix. We don't necessarily have to take every allusion to its full "literal" meaning.

bachsoffice wrote:

We don't necessarily have to take every allusion to its full "literal" meaning.

I agree, if that were so, our characters would be extremely complicated.

This is the best, most logical and not over thought string yet. No overblown theories, no stretches greater than Rush Limbaugh's underpants, and good, even great theories. My compliments to you all.

I happen to agree with GMILLS on this one after having read and given it some thought. The connections between the scripts and characters of the Merovingian, The oracle and Seraph make sense without twisting up the plot or the other sensible theories about different aspects of the movie. Its consistncy with the rest of the movie convices me almost as much as the content of the theory itself. Merv and Seraph rebel against Deus Ex, (why i don't know) Seraph loses his wings for this, and is freed by the oracle, thus his debt.

He could have lost them as a cost to the merovingian for his freedom, that works too. I hope this string keeps going as it has, ending in a unified theory of Seraph's history.

I posted this in another thread (Seraph's Story Spoiler), this is my theory of a comprehensive seraph story:

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Here's my theory of the Seraph story: In the first (or earlier) Matrices, Agents didn't exist and Angels served the purpose of overseeing/policing the humans. I believe the Merovingian and Seraph were both Angel programs (the Merovingian being Lucifer as discussed on other threads). The Angel programs proved to be uncontrollable (kind of like Smith), so Deus ex Machina terminates them and creates the Agent programs as they are now, which were programmed to be much more subservient. However, the Merovingian finds a way to escape, possibly by having the keymaker create a backdoor where he builds his Chateau/Club Hell outside of the reaches of the machine intlligence. I think that the Merovingian's Hell is hidden in the deletion file of the main program. Form there, the Mero can pick and choose his army of useful and powerful programs. Seraph, being one of the more powerful angel programs, was saved by the Mero for his army after his deletion (this might be when Seraph lost his wings). However, Seraph refused to work for Mero and leaves (thus being a judas and prodigal son). The Agents hunt down Seraph (because he's an exile) and Seraph fights off and defeats Smith. The Oracle then decides that Seraph is in fact still useful and decides to give him a purpose: to protect that which is most important. Thus the Oracle saved Seraph and Seraph owes her a debt of gratitude.

This story could explain all the mysterious Seraph references: Little Judas, Wingless, Prodigal Son, Debt of Gratitude, et al. It is also loosely based on the Angel rebellion as described by Milton in "Paradise Lost". The Merovingian is so literarily close to Lucifer, I'm 100% sure that he is meant to play the part (although he may also represent other figures as well in addition). What I haven't accounted for is Seraph's "Golden Code" color when seen by Neo. Maybe someone can help me out with that.

Comments? Ideas?

I think you people are reading too much into the whole "wings" thing. Just because the thug at the Club entrance says "Holy shit, it's wingless!", and that The Merovingian calls him "The angel without wings" it doesn't mean that he actually HAD wings and lost them at some point.

I mean, his name is Seraph, which is a type of angel. Thus, by calling him "wingless" and "the angel without wings", they are just mocking him.

I like Mantarays point about Persephone appearing in both a nice setting and a less appealing setting. It works well with her namesake.

I don't think Seraph ever literally had wings. The merovingian is seen very much as a kind of false messiah and as such in that context Seraph can be seen as a fallen angel. Fans of gnosticism interpretations here will realise though that part of realising the truth is recognising false deities.

It's good to see that someone understands things the same way as me.

Generally I would agree that "Wingless" is just a mock that doesn't mean anything. I think most things in this forum are overananlyzed. Except, it just seems strange to me that someone would call Seraph "Wingless" if nobody else has wings either.

It implies that he should have wings but doesn't. There's three possible interpretations (that i can think of off hand):

1) He once had wings, but no longer has them.

2) Others of his kind have wings, but he doesn't (either literary angels or real angels in the Matrix universe)

3) A metaphorical reference to a fall from grace

I think any one of these interpretations is possible. I'm not insisting that the wings are literal, but I think that they are because, otherwise, it would be a pretty weak insult. So weak, that it wouldn't even be worth mentioning. Like is Seraph's name were Tiger instead, and the guard yelled, "Hey, it's Stripeless." What I'm saying is I think there's an implication that being "wingless" is somehow degrading to Seraph, because it is a mock or insult. However, I wouldn't rule out any of the above three.

Seraph never had wings.

Those that think he does are extreme literalists, who wouldn't know a figure of speech even if it they were smacked in the face with it.

I'm not saying that they are literal wings, they could easily be figurative wings. Like the Oracle's Eyes, not literal!

However, there was a comment made on the absence of something. Usually, when you comment on the absence of something, that something is supposed to be there.

Also, usually, when you try to insult somebody, you try to pick on something meaningful, that might hurt. It is possible that "wingless" is just a nickname they have for Seraph. Maybe he's often called the "Angel without wings" and that "wingless" was just a reference to that. That makes sense. I'd buy that. But, I'd also buy into the comment being meaningful, and even insulting, to Seraph somehow.

"Wingless" could be a reference to something else. Especially since there's more to come with Seraph. I am not insisting that Seraph had wings! But I entertain the possibilty.

bachsoffice wrote:

The "little Judas" comment implies that he betrayed the Merovingian or someone close to the Merovingian in the past. This would also imply that he worked with or for the Merovingian at some point because there had to be some kind of relationship to betray.

Seraphim are angels, protector of God, from a Judiac Mythology. So the "little Judas" comment could be just a reference of Seraph to that myth and that is all. Why does it have to be about betrayal and betraying the Merv?

The real seraphim from the myth are protector of God. The Seraph in the movie protect what matters most. I guess the wac bros is implying that "what matters most" is God. Again, why does it have to be about betrayal?

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And the Gold Code thing is interesting too, but it is relevant or just a device used to show that Seraph is a "different kind of program"?

The possible explaination of why the gold code surrounding seraph coud be that based on Judiac Mythology: "It is said that whoever lays eyes on a Seraph, he would instantly be incinerated due to the "immense brightness "of the Seraph". Things that have connection to the Source/ Machine God (if there's such a thing).. seems to have gold code, may be they are implying that Seraph has connection because he protects the machine god. .. who knows..

Anyhow, my previous post was not meant to be insult, I appologize if you took it that way. I tend to frequently use figure of speech in my messages, and sometimes I get annoyed when people take it literally. I think the hidden messages and reference to mythology, religion and philosophy is cool and everything, but trying to dig to deep.. hmm I don't know.

OK, I think I'll have to explain it again...

A seraphim is a type of angel.
Seraph was named after a type of angel.
Angels have wings.
Seraph doesn't.

His name is Seraph, (implying he's an angel, which as far as I can see, many of you believe it literally) and yet, he has no wings.

I hope it's clearer now.

I agree with everything you said above

oscargabrielp wrote:

A seraphim is a type of angel. Seraph was named after a type of angel.

Not to nitpick or anything, I thought Seraph is the (singular) term for Seraphim.

Also it is blatant from certain lines in the movie (such as "the prodigal son returns") that Seraph used to work for the merovingian. Hence the very fact that he is helping the oracle now makes him a traitor.

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Anyhow, my previous post was not meant to be insult, I appologize if you took it that way

No apology necessary. This is a cool discussion group. This is just frustrating because usually I'm the one saying that people are taking the names too literally, but this time, I'm being the literalist because I really think I'm right.

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Seraphim are angels, protector of God, from a Judiac Mythology. So the "little Judas" comment could be just a reference of Seraph to that myth and that is all.

This is a good idea. However, wouldn't it be that he's a "little judah"? Maybe someone more knowledgeable with biblical terminology could shed some light.

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His name is Seraph, (implying he's an angel, which as far as I can see, many of you believe it literally) and yet, he has no wings.

Yes, true. but my argument is that it's a weak insult. Like if Seraph's name was "Tiger" and the guy called him "Stripeless." If it didn't mean anything to Seraph that he had no stripes, then it wouldn't be a good insult. But I'll concede, maybe it's just a nickname. I won't, however, concede that it couldn't possibly mean anything else.

Upon what you all have brought forward, I think that just because Merv calls Seraph "Judas" doesn't necessarily mean that he worked for him. If I remember correctly Judas gave up Jesus to better his own situation (money).

In the case of Merv and Seraph, perhaps when Merv's revolt against the Architect (God) began, Seraph was helping Merv. Upon realizing that this revolt would utimately lead to deletion, Seraph changed his mind and told the Architect what was going on to improve his situation. The Architect, not having the ability to choose, sent him to be deleted anyway. The Oracle, having the ability to choose, forgives Seraph and prevents him from being deleted. Thus, the reason why he is in servitude to her.

Meanwhile, Merv upon being found out by the Architect is sent to be deleted, while Seraph avoids it and even goes to work for the Mother of the Matrix. Thus, making Seraph the Merv's own personal Judas.

I know it's a stretch, but it's just another bit for you all to chew on...

GPieters,

I agree that this is a very possible scenario. It's actually very similar to one of the theories I've posted before. You're drawing on the "Merovingian as Lucifer" profile and the angel revolt from Milton's "Paradise Lost". It's very possible that an actual revolt takes place which would draw very closely to the "Paradise Lost" story. Whether or not a revolt did, in fact, take place is completely up to the Wachowskis to decide. Also, whether Seraph took part in the revolt is up to the Wachowskis. He might have been part of the failed revolt and cast out, or he might have turned sides before they lost, but both would explain his being a "Judas" and "Prodigal Son". Or there are scenarios to explain Seraph's and Merv's relationship without a revolt necessarily taking place. There's a lot of theories out there about Seraph, and they're all (including my own) pure speculation. We may or may not find out the history in the new Seraph story, which I hear is going to be a video game. For more info, check out the thread "Seraph's Story (Don't Read. . .Spoilers)"