»Why Zion is probably not simualted or part of the Matrix«

Some will argue that Zion isn’t real. It’s just part of the matrix. Perhaps, but if Zion is indeed part of the Matrix (regardless of its function), then we (as viewers of the film) don’t ever really see the “real world”, or anything outside the Matrix.
We only see the Matrix’s simulation of a world that may or may not exist outside the matrix.
Everything we see in the movie is part of “the matrix”. The sentinels, the ships, the crops of people connected to the tubes, everything. Everything we know, we’re told by the matrix.
If that’s the case then we can’t be sure of anything. How can we know if there are any people connected to the matrix? How would we know that there even is a matrix? For all we know, everything on Earth could be destroyed, and the Matrix is just a mutated “Sims” program running on Mr Anderson’s computer.
So if Zion doesn’t really exist (in the movie’s world), then perhaps the matrix doesn’t really exist either.
Perhaps the matrix is a virtual world created by machines for other machines and programs. A place where they can go around pretending to be human.
Anyway... the possibilities are endless, and that’s the point. If a world outside a simulated world appears real but is in reality simulated, then we would have no way of knowing if a real world eventually exists outside all the simulated ones. We’d have no idea what the real world is actually like. Nor would we know how many virtual worlds exist.

i totally agree with you. i've said exactly the same thing here:

Hi Orbslateau.

Welcome to the small team of the heretics!

We're few and much criticized, but we're growing!

The fact that we never saw the real real world or that such a thing may not even exist is the whole point. If the brothers had any understanding of Simulation and Simulacra that is a central message.

The brothers made a royal mess with this trilogy.

AnaisKarim wrote:

The fact that we never saw the real real world or that such a thing may not even exist is the whole point. If the brothers had any understanding of Simulation and Simulacra that is a central message..

Yes, but if you’re trying to make a statement like “the world may or may not be real,” (which is a statement that by definition can never be proved or disproved) and then you show a world outside that world that may or may not be real, then you have shown that at least more than one world may or may not be real, or more generally, “any world may or may not be real.”

Furthermore, if exiting an unreal world (i.e. imaginary, simulated, dreamed up, etc) does NOT provide entry into a real world, then what’s my incentive to exit the unreal world to begin with? You’ve basically made me aware that my world may or may not be real, and that I shouldn’t care. Why? Because I may never find a world that IS real. Even if I do, I have no way of knowing that it IS real, because you’ve shown me that I can’t trust my senses and that a world can always be real or unreal. So how am I supposed to find the real world? Why would I want to? Why would I care?

You’ve raised the possibility that “nothing is real” or “nothing is as it seems.” This is fine in itself, but it renders the entire plot pointless, trivial and unnecessary. If everything and anything “may or may not be real” then why should I care if it’s real or unreal? I have no way of confirming or denying anything. After all, I may or may not be real (though I may exist). Actually, my own existence is the only thing I could affirm... but I could do that by just thinking it, it’s not necessary to watch a trilogy of trivial stories about things that may or may not be real.

AnaisKarim wrote:

The brothers made a royal mess with this trilogy.

Probably... there's a lot about the trilogy that shouldn't make sense. The brothers put quite a few things in there that they didn't understand themselves.

Guys, there is ONE WAY to know if the "real world"(in the movies) is in fact the real shit and another simulation. That is that if the real world was indeed the real thing, then Neo would not have his powers in there. Neo's powers are limited by the parameters of a computer simulated dream world called the matrix, he has powers inside it, not outside.
PiukNeo.

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Furthermore, if exiting an unreal world (i.e. imaginary, simulated, dreamed up, etc) does NOT provide entry into a real world, then what’s my incentive to exit the unreal world to begin with?

This would explain why Neo didn't eat the red pills from the Oracle in M2 and M3. Each time he gets a "splinter" in his mind he is offered a red pill. How does he know it's not just another layer of simulation? So why bother to wake up? As the P.O.D. lyrics from Relo state, he can just keep "dreaming of Zion awake."

When he figured out that the Oracle and Seraph were programs, he had the opportunity to realize HE was one too. But they don't come any denser than Neo. So of course that went over his head.

After stopping the squiddies Neo had another splinter in his mind. He'd have to be beyond dumb not to question the reality of the "real world" at that point. So when he went to the Oracle, she offered him another red pill. But since he loves Trin so much he'd let every other human on earth die to save her, he's certainly not trying to wake up from the reality he shares with her. She's his whole reason for living.

Anyway, the reason I think Revo wasn't liked by most is that it's so open-ended it can be whatever you like. That's too close to being about NOTHING at all.

Well I for one agree with Orbsplateau. I don’t think the brothers would even bother making it so everything you saw in the film was just false, that would just be lame. I don’t get why people are trying to add like a million more things to this film, your just making it more complicated.

At the end of day we don’t know the truth so the most logical step is to assume the simple reasoning which is the matrix is the matrix and the real world we see is the real world.

So how can Neo have "powers" in the real world? Well imo there is only one answer and that is he is by some means connected to the machines. So he is either part machine or all machine and just another program like the Oracle.

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So he is either part machine or all machine and just another program like the Oracle.

Might be, but if Neo is a program whose was that body that was disconnected, fell from the cocoon and was recovered by the Neba crew?

That was neo in the real world. Just like Smith got into the real world as a human. Im not taking any power away from Neo im just saying he is like another Oracle or another program. I think it makes allot of sence.

Maybe I didn't understand what you mean.

Are you saying there are 2 Neos? One is human, the other is a program?

No just one Neo. But like Smith he can function in the real world too. If he isnt part program/machine how can he do that stuff in the real world? Unless the real world is another Matrix but I dont think the brothers would do that.

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The fact that we never saw the real real world or that such a thing may not even exist is the whole point.

the point is that the real world may be different from our conceptions. this idea was what made the original matrix movie so interesting, so fresh. they dont have to say it all over again in the third movie. that would even indicate a dearth of ideas, which imho is not the situation with the w. bros.

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If the brothers had any understanding of Simulation and Simulacra that is a central message.

that reality doesnt exist is of course not what baudrillard is trying to say. philosophers never say what they mean. if he says the gulf war didnt happen,he means that our conception of it, created by the media, is false. and so it didnt happen, in the way WE beleive it did. this fits nicely with the theme of the first movie, but not if the 3rd movie says that reality doesnt exist.[/quote]

Guys, just stop searching too deep....
By seeing Animatrix (first 2 episodes) that tells how machines enslaved humanity in their city in the desert, i think it's obvious that when Neo and Trinity are in the space ship going to the machine city passing by the "human growing culture" THIS is the REAL world. It's as simple at that... The sky with black clouds (created by the humans) and the mountainous landscapes like the borders of the desert is in my opinion really obvious. No big thinking here....

There is no correct answer.

When things are this open-ended you can believe whatever works for you. If your interpretation includes "Zion is real," so be it. But you can't prove it and other people are going to believe what they want. End of story.

answerer wrote:

Guys, just stop searching too deep.... By seeing Animatrix (first 2 episodes) that tells how machines enslaved humanity in their city in the desert, i think it's obvious that when Neo and Trinity are in the space ship going to the machine city passing by the "human growing culture" THIS is the REAL world. It's as simple at that... The sky with black clouds (created by the humans) and the mountainous landscapes like the borders of the desert is in my opinion really obvious. No big thinking here....

i know.... i'm hurting my own head here. damn splinter...

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From the Matrix1 transcript: Tank: Holes? Nope. Me and my brother, Dozer, we're both one hundred percent pure, old fashioned, home grown human, born free right here in the real world. A genuine child of Zion.

I believe there are 3 classes of humans:

1. Pure bred (100%) humans from the human city Zion - Dozer, Tank and many others humans in Zion are in this class. (no holes)

2. Farm humans raised and altered by machine to be put in pods, to be used as battery (99% human , 1% machine) These humans never wake up.

3. Former farmed human that were rescue by Morpheus rebel and now lives in Zion - Neo, spoon kid, and others with holes are in this class
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I believe Neo is a part machine since he is a farm grown human raised by machine (approximately 99% human and 1% machine). Neo the person is not a program, however since Neo is part machine, he can carry "the one" program.

Since he is a farmed raised by machine and carries the "one" program, he is a sort of machine in a way and has a connection to the "source", that is how he is able to control machines outside of the matrix world, since he has a conection to the source. The oracle even stated this fact "The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from." (where it came from meaning the source). This is a rational and logical explaination of his power outside the Matrix world.

thats probably the best explanation bcuz it doesnt break the laws of physics, and it doesnt demolish the storyline by moving everything into a simulation.

but the humans neednt be 'part machine'. of course, having a data interface behind ur neck would make u distinct from a '100% human', but its just an external modification. there is no difference is in the basic structure/anatomy of the organism. it could be that only neo's consciousness was altered, as the architect says. and if u read 'goliath' from the matrix comix( r they a legitimate source of evidence? ) one of the machines states quite clearly that they've modified humans a bit.

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you were designed to do this. We've improved a little on the basic human design in your case. You're bigger. You're much faster. You have faster processing speeds and reaction times.

so it could be that neo is normal as far as pod-born humans go, but he has 'neuro-kinetics way above normal'(thats just jargon for faster reaction times) as tank says, and has a modified brain/nervous system/consciousness.

btw i recommend goliath from series 1 of matrix comix. very good sci fi

Zion is a program,just like the Matrix.How is Neo able to figure out that he is able to stop the sentinels in Zion near the end of the film?The spoon given to him earlier.It had obviously been bent loads,but how outside the Matrix?
This gave Neo the inspiration and the understanding that Zion is still a matrix.

grenade wrote:

The spoon given to him earlier.It had obviously been bent loads,but how outside the Matrix?

how do u know its the same spoon? and if the matrix is a simulation, how can u take something out of it? the spoon wasnt the same spoon, it was there to signify. but it might be a dead end, like so many of the promising symbols in the movie. for eg, the name 'hamann'.

btw i'm from cochin. and u?

if ur in a primative society like zion and are a kid, try making a spoon. its gonna be bent. the kid from m1 is just telling neo im here aswell now. i know this seems too simple but sometimes simplicity is the best explanation