»There must be a matrix within a matrix«

How else do you think Neo was able to stop those sentinals in the real world and also how else do you think he was able to see some sort of coding in the real world. I know it wasn't the same kind of coding it was less structured and more irratic but how else was he able to do that

in a story, especially a sci-fi one, there are some things to which u shouldnt ask how. it will only serve to distort the story.

i thought it was becuase he was learning to separate his mind from his body...

I don't think the gold glow is a code, I think it's just the electricity that Neo sees, or maybe the source, which is the machine mainframe.

There are so many possibilities about why Neo could stop the sentinels in real life, however it is my firm belief that Zion and the "real world" are NOT part of the matrix, or a matrix in the matrix. The W. Bros. didn't want to fool the audience like that.

The Gold Code is everything in real life (not just that with electricity, since Neo can't see his own ship, etc..) THe gold code is everything connected to the Source (the source of AI)... Neo can see this because his power goes back to the source (as said by the oracle).

Yes, Neo definately has powers that would allow him to do that, what these powers are could be debated. I believe Neo has a dual nature, one living in the real world, and one in the computers. There are a few mentions of this in the movie, and being the one, this is possible. Read my other posts, I've talked quite a bit on this subject.

Anyway, there is an explanation (you don't just have to take it for how it is)... And if you read a lot of the posts here, people are trying to figure out how... So, let Zion be Zion, and realize Neo has that power.

I ALSO BELIEVE THAT ZION IS AN ILLUSION CREATED TO CONTROL THE ANOMOLIES. I MEAN ZION ITSELF IS A PART OF THE MATRIX-SIMULATION.

Videogame Freak Mak wrote:

I don't think the gold glow is a code, I think it's just the electricity that Neo sees, or maybe the source, which is the machine mainframe.

Interesting, But Maybe the source, is being shown to neo for what it really is, the "aura" neo sees is the source of machine where they shouldnt be -- Our World...

Sin wrote:

How else do you think Neo was able to stop those sentinals in the real world and also how else do you think he was able to see some sort of coding in the real world. I know it wasn't the same kind of coding it was less structured and more irratic but how else was he able to do that

Well, I´ve told why Zion is not a Matrix (if it were, Neo could see the code of Trinity and of his own ship, but he cannot: he only sees the machine world, and only can influence on it in a limited manner: stopping or exploding the sentinels). So, how can Neo stop the sentinels? Because of his connection with the Source. Neo is some kind of hybrid of human and machines: the Architect says that "despite the process, you remain inevitably human", so (1) there was a process that gave Neo some machine-characteristics, a special program, and at the same time (2) Neo remains basically human. Neo also is a central piece of a game that is played between Architect and Oracle: Architect seeks to balance all equations and keeping the statu quo, Oracle tries to change the game and searching a new order.
So, my hypothesis is that part of Neo´s machine characteristics (caused, as I said, by a "process" deviced by Architect and Oracle) includes his power to connect with the Source and hacker the sentinels causing them to stop or explode. A further hypothesis is: this power, and some other events that I´ll comment in future messages, seem to be caused by Oracle, because she has the purpose of changing the current rules of periodic destruction of Zion.
The other apparent evidence for believing in an outer Matrix is: how does Smith download in Bane? But a connection with the Matrix seems to modify in both directions (for example: to have an experience in the Matrix is to modify some parts of the brain in the perceptual and memory areas), so if the connection with the Matrix can change the brain in sutil ways (such as "printing" a sensation or a memory) it may also change the brain massively (configurating a new "personality" or program). After all, this is what cognitive science proposes when it adopts functionalism for describing "how the mind/brain works".

Best regards,
Logos.

shailesh wrote:

I ALSO BELIEVE THAT ZION IS AN ILLUSION CREATED TO CONTROL THE ANOMOLIES. I MEAN ZION ITSELF IS A PART OF THE MATRIX-SIMULATION.

But: What´s the evidence in the movie for holding such a belief? And how do you explain the contrary evidence (such as the one I mentioned: Neo only can see light forms of the machine-world, but he cannot see Trinity nor his own ship, so he is not seeing a code)?
Just "believing" is easy, but "believing because of good reasons" is certainly not so easy. And that´s the same with a movie or with any other important matter of science or politics (remember for example the blind certainty of Bush when he attacked Iraq).

Best regards,
Logos.

Maybe Zion and the "Real World" are another matrix. Think about it, it would be inevitable that a second matrix would be created. If you make make an exact simulation of mankind, it will no doubtedly continue evolving untill they create AI, and once that happens the process of the machines taking over the planet will just repeat, and they will also create a matrix.

But this theory would only have a chance at being correct if they created the world EXACTLY how it was before AI.

Kyza wrote:

Maybe Zion and the "Real World" are another matrix. Think about it, it would be inevitable that a second matrix would be created. If you make make an exact simulation of mankind, it will no doubtedly continue evolving untill they create AI, and once that happens the process of the machines taking over the planet will just repeat, and they will also create a matrix. But this theory would only have a chance at being correct if they created the world EXACTLY how it was before AI.

EXACTLY! A second Matrix For People who Cant accept the first one!

but if a small percentage dont accept the first matrix then a smaller percentage inevitably wont accept the second.

good point james. if in fact the the Matrix with in a Matrix theory is correct, this seems to me like a horrible misallocation of resources. having to maintain 2 different Matrices? plus a control system for the people who reject both of them (if it's nearly 99% who accept the first one, then i assume it's similar in the second).

i believe that zion is in fact REAL. yet, it is still a form of control. it seems unreal to believe that the machines would spend so much time and effort on us. because you have to remember that we (humans) are only a power source, the conquered opponent, Slaves. i dont presume to know what other things the machines did in their existence. if the city they built spread out and covered the whole planet, or if they colonized other worlds or other solar systems or galaxies. who knows. yet they must doing something, striving for a goal, have a purpose. the matrix is just a way to control and maintain an infinitely replenishable power source, the power they need to achieve their purpose. i dont know if anyone else shares my point of view on how small a part in this we are. of course, the issues that the matrix movies storyline deals with, are a small part of (bear with me here) the story of this earth. this of course only applies, i know if you believe the matrix is a reality or a future reality.

sin mas por el momento, me retiro.

jamestwisleton wrote:

but if a small percentage dont accept the first matrix then a smaller percentage inevitably wont accept the second.

if the percentage is considerably small, then it would explain why neo can do things other people cannot, it is a plausabe, and intreuguing theory.

Oli170 wrote:

because you have to remember that we (humans) are only a power source, the conquered opponent, Slaves. i dont presume to know what other things the machines did in their existence. if the city they built spread out and covered the whole planet, or if they colonized other worlds or other solar systems or galaxies. who knows. yet they must doing something, striving for a goal, have a purpose. the matrix is just a way to control and maintain an infinitely replenishable power source, the power they need to achieve their purpose. i dont know if anyone else shares my point of view on how small a part in this we are.

I disagree. I think that the "energy theory" that Morpheo gives Neo in M1 is basically wrong (as other knowledge of Morpheo that proves wrong when Neo discovers the purposes of Architect and Oracle in M2 and M3). Humans are important not because of their energy (it´s too expensive to keep humans alive, and surely bacterias would be much more economical and would give much more energy than humans). Why machines do something like the Matrix, then? One reason is obvious: to stop human´s belicosity (see Animatrix). But a more important one: to study humans (remember that Oracle is a program to study humans). Humans have capacities that machines lack, so by studying humans the machines can accelerate their own evolution. Neo´s cyclical reloading of his life experiences (see M2, conversation with the Architect) has this purpose. My last hypothesis is: machines first lacked choice, love, intrinsic purpose ("all program without purpose must be erased"). Thanks to the cyclical reloading of Neo, they evolved, so we see the fathers of Sati having choice, love and intrinsic purpose. So that´s one of the "revolutions" of the title of M3. What do you think? (If we agree on this, I comment a further hypothesis).

About the title of this thread: I still didn´t see any good reason for believing in the "matrix within the matrix" hypothesis, nor I see any attempt of their proponents to explain the contrary evidence that I mentioned (about what Neo sees when he´s blinded). Should we conclude there are no good reasons for believing that hypothesis?

Best regards,
Logos

zain is a real city. its not a programm.

architech create matrix to reproduce humans (machine's energy-food).

so the question is how neo can stop the machines.
its obviously clear that every "one" was one even when he was "sleeping" in matrix. if that point isn't correct we have a big unanswered question.
-how morpheas found the "one".
so the only thing that is left to answer this question is to suppose that neo was the "one" even while he was in matrix before morpheas found him.

the path had been opened years ago. the only thing that was remained was to walk on it.

well this is a sci fi movie, and expect funny things to happen to normal people.

oracle said neo's powers extend form the matrix to the source, which was 01, the machine city. that was why he could see his orange code- like thing

ive been thinking about this...

first i will say that i believe that zion is real...

to explain thin we must address the issues of neos power in the real world

i once argued that neos power could not have come because of his connection to the source as the oracle said.because neo never touched the source in reloaded...

then i thought about it some more and i realised that what the oracle said was "the power of the one stretches from this world all the way back to the source where it came from"

so...neo power comes from the source as the anomaly code that was placed into him in order for the matrix to function(see my other posts)was created in the source initially...

smith was also initially created in the source and this is how they are connected...

smith had the ability in m1 to control the movement of sentinals("deploy the sentinals")

so he had the ability to stop them as well

as for neos "sight"...this too can be explained by the smith/source connection as neo is able to use his connection to the source to see every thing else which is connected to the source in some form

this is why he can see the matrix and the foetus fields(which you do see in neos vision in onw scene) as well as the machine city but not the logos or trinity as they are fully seperate from the source

so neos powers are not a result of the real world not being real

they are as the oracle said because of neos anomaly code being forever connected to the source like the sentinals(sort of radio controlled style)

another justify is this:

neo's purpose was to reach the source. and if we think that all thinks have already taken their way (there is no choice. you have already choose), it is impossible for him to die before he accomplishes his purpose. so he can stop the machines, so smith cannot copy himself on neo (in matrix 2) etc.

Although I respect all ideas, and believe that the main purpose of this movies is to take whatever you want from them, I disagree with the school of thoughts about matrix within a matrix. If it was it like that why do Apoc and Switch died when they were unplugged, why didn’t they end up in Mobil Ave? Why you even have to be plugged to jump move between Zion Matrix to Matrix.
But I think the biggest proof that Zion is real is that Smith/Bane says to Neo something like it is difficult to think inside this body, if Zion was just another matrix he should’ve taken control over Bane and use all the similar powers he has when he copied into regular people plugged to the Matrix.

to support the MWAM theory, in M2 when the NEB is approaching gate 3 ZION CONTROL is using a construct to operate the gates in the real world ZION. WHY?

I just love to see newbies go at it

How many threads must we use to say this...?


I actually saw a theory BEFORE the movie came out explaining the events at the end of M2! It goes as follows....

Maybe (when the theory was written M3 had as yet to confirm this) Neo's powers are capable of affecting what is inside the matrix even when he is not plugged in! So Neo is controlling the sentinels from inside the matrix without needing to be plugged into the matrix.

It turns out that Neo is actually connecting with something beyond the matrix - the source. Here the sentinels are controlled and, through linking with the source by touching the sentinel, Neo finds himself in Mobil Ave - the border between the matrix and the source (ie. between the human world and the machine world).

Quote:

About the title of this thread: I still didn´t see any good reason for believing in the "matrix within the matrix" hypothesis. Should we conclude there are no good reasons for believing that hypothesis?

I recently bought the trilogy on DVD, but have only watched the first two films so I'm pretty much of a Matrix beginner and quite ignorant about computers. There is a case to be made on this Matrix-Within-A Matrix theory I think. Zion was once very much a part of the matrix and it was a computer program designed by the Architect so he had full control but lost it. I don't think at this point after seeing only the first two that Zion's inhabitence are real humans, and they were probably designed by the architect. He said he keeps on trying to destroy the city and is on his sixth time, and in other words he created a program that contains a bug and cannot be corrected except it must be deleted but the virus was bad and it's infection has been proven difficult to heal. Zion may be symbolic of a computer virus which equals the rebellion of the Zionites, and to save his computer the Architect must destroy them and their city. So maybe Zion is a matrix containing possibly many of those zip drive attachments with bugs or viruses that must be put into the trash and deleted before the computers information is harmed. Right now I will come to the conclusion that the sixth Zion is not the original virus coming back to haunt him, but is part of that bug that originated from the first Zion that somehow the Architect was never able to successfully delete. Parts of his computer are still corrupted. If one can imagine a computer crashing and always having to restart it, or a program that becomes faulty which one tries to fix over and over again with no success, well I think this may describe somewhat the relationship between the Architect and Zion.

The view that a matrix within a matrix theory is incorrect may support the possibility that Zion is not only real, but that the machines want to destroy the city because they no longer want to rely on humans for their survival. Maybe the machines just want their own freedom and independence from humans and think they can live and control themselves without human interference. The inability of the Architect to destroy Zion forever may mean that the machines have had great difficulty fighting their controlers who are obviously the humans and keep on trying. Am I suggesting that the machines, not Smith though I'll get into that at another time, are the good guys and Zionites without being conscious of it are guilty of their power over the machines? I guess the Matrix is just about the fight between two species who both want independence and freedom.

I currently believe the Zion is not a computer program. Not just because it would be bad taste for them to be. But because there were hints about the matrix being just as real as the real world. (Aslong as the people are real the method of interaction is just a system).

Anyway, to my point. I think there's enough information about how the matrix connects to people, to say it would be possible for Neo to jack into the matrix without external equiptment (though they help ofcourse).

As we know "the matrix" is transmitted through airwaves. We also know the ships computers are NOT capable of converting the matrix from code into sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. (Cypher: there's way too much information to decode the matrix). And we know the matrix is in code.. a form the brain would not interpret... so that leaves the head plug. Human beings must be installed with the nessesay equiptment to decode the matrix.

Plugging them in from a line gives a clearer signal, of course, but even TVs can pick up local channels without an antenna. So it was just a matter of Neo figuring out how to use his machine given equiptment.

Okay... now onto how Zion is still part of the matrix, but not a computer program.

The nature of the matrix program construct makes it so only those who have a "sixth sense" and are in some form or an other "dreamers" might have an idea this world is not real. Which does make it so most people who are unplugged are the dreamer type.

This would cause most of the population of Zion to be very prone to believing prophecies. Especially when the prophecy seems to be true.

Program = Free actions in a fake world.
Zion = Fake reasons in a real world.
The Matrix has everyone.

There's what I think, hope it makes sense.