»NEO HAS TWO CONSIOUSNESSES«

ive posted my idea on one of scienthiests forums but i feel it deserves a forum of its own .

here is my theory for Neo being able to see the golden code and stop the sentenals

unlocking the question of "what is the the source" is the key to understanding the movies. Here are my observations on what ive seen,

In Reloaded, the oricle says "the path of the one ends at the source", and neo replies "the machine mainframe" and she says "yes". this means that the machine mainframe is the source, simple.

SO i went to dictionary.com to find out all the possible meanings for mainframe, the one that makes most sense for the matrix is as follows :
" the part of a computer (a microprocessor chip) that does most of the data processing; the CPU and the memory form the central part of a computer to which the peripherals are attached".

NEO can see the source. In Revolutions when he sees the golden code, he is seeing the machine processes. The Central Processing Unit (CPU) of the machines is the MACHINE CONCIOUS. NEO can see all the processes and thoughts of the machines. He is able to "Hack" (symbolised by NEO being a hacker in the matrix world) into these processes and rewrite them, and change them.

Why is neo able to see the source code?

Simple. Neo has two consiousnesses. He has two minds.

When Neo comes back from his encounter with the architecht, his mind is so focused on reaching trinity who is falling to her death. When Neo is able to fly, and change the rules of the matrix, he is interacting with the basic programming of the matrix program ( the green code of the matrix). He is focusing so hard to fly faster to reach trinity in time that he reaches past that code and reaches the code underneath that, the processes which process the green code.

Maybe because he encountered the architect and went through the white light when opening the door or maybe because he was focusing so hard on saving trinity that something changed in Neo. Neo is constantly changing and evolving and after a certain point something happens to him.

Neo's Consious is split into two. His consious now runs through the machines processes (gold code) and also his mind in the real world.

At the end of M2 when Neo stops the sentinals he is interacting with the other half of his consious which is running through the sentinals. Its a tricky idea to imagine but think about it for a couple of minutes.

When Neo stops the sentinals his whole mind is meeting again which results in him collapsing and his "real "world mind being sent through the machines consious to mobile ave (which means place of limbo) when Trinity comes to rescue Neo. She brings his mind, back into the matrix, and then from there, back into his real world brain.

Now Neo is ready to touch the source, and that is my explination for his being able to.

Im not gonna be arogant and cocky and say that my theory is right, (like scientheist , but i just wanna post my opinion.

Please tell me what you think of my theory and together we can all crack the riddle of the Matrix!

Good theory. It is along the lines of the separation of mind and body. But I think it breaks down a bit with the dual code. And I think the dual conschiousness needs to be refined a bit.

A program does not have levels of code. It simply has a code base that is compiled into a program. So I dont think that Neo is looking at different levels of machine code but I do agree that in the Matrix Neo is looking at matrix code. I think the golden code you are talking about is actually the machine real world network. As Neo has evolved in the Matrix he has also evolved in the real world. He has developed a "6th sense" to be able to "touch" the machines in a way no human has ever been able to before. The first time he touched the source he was unprepared for it and it caused his body to seperate from his mind and he ended up in Mobil station. (Mobil is an antigram for Limbo). As he realized his power he became able to control it and understand it better so he was able to do the things he did at the end of M3. This was simular to the evolution he had in the first movie in the Matrix where he became able to lucid dream and contol his environment.

So if you will, Neo does have two states of being. his conschious state in the real world where he has developed a 6th sense to touch the machines. and his "unconschious"(dream) state, for lack of a better word where he can lucid dream and control his environment in the Matrix.

What do you think?

Starbuck

In Enter the Matrix, the Oracle tells us that Neo has found out how to seperate mind from body, which is why he is able to sense the sentinels.

i think the golden code is the machine processes, the machine consiousness, and neo is part of that consious as well as his own consious, after he meets the architect, it splits

I dont think his meeting the Architect had anything to do with it. I think it was something that was happening all along. His evolution in the real world parralleled his evolution in the Matrix.

What specifically do you feel happened with the Architect that would have caused him to split consiousness?

I would agree that the orange code could be machine processes. Another way to look at it is the machine "network of consciousness" he has gained the ability to jack into the machine mind just as he can jack into the Matrix without any technological devices.

Comments?

Starbuck

maybe when he leaves the matrix throught the door made of light, and neo is consumed by the light. Maybe that split his mind.

Im not sure how he did it, but thats just one of my ideas how he could of. The idea i like the most though, and seems to make the most sence cause it ties in the idea of love as well.

It is that when neo comes back into the matrix, his is concentrating really really hard on getting to trinity in time, (Neo going down the street with all the cars in the air behind him) that neo touches the golden code, which is underneath the green code.

The oricle says that the power of the one reaches back to the source. When Neo is trying to fly faster than he ever has, and concentrates so hard on changing the code around him that he reaches to the processes (gold code) underneath the matrix code which are the machine processes (concious) As the orical said, he is able to reach the source, he just never needed to in the past, untill he had to fly extra fast to reach trinity.

When Neo touches this golden code his consious splits and one part runs through the machine process.

what do you think guys?

It must have something to do with that, as no other significant event occurs before then and it just fits in to place (timewise)

I believe you have something there. That very well could have been the event that allowed him to touch the machine consciousness. Right after that Neo states that something is different. That act of defying the Architect and extreme concentration on getting to and saving Trinity while at the same time contemplating the true nature of the Matrix may have pushed him over the edge to be able to jack into the machine mind.

I still dont like the split consciousness though. I still think the duality of it is his dream state in the matrix vs his waking state in the real world. I think that is were the duality of his evolution is. In the matrix while in a dream state he can see the green Matrix code and lucid dream any condition he wants. In the real world he can jack into the machine mind and see the orange machine processes. My thoughts on why I think that are because in the Matrix he never sees the orange machine processes and in the real world he never actually sees the Matrix code. If you remember he ended up in Limbo (mobile station). He ended up in limbo in the real world just after he touched the machine source and disrupted the sentinals. Rama (I believe) explained that mobil station was a place between the Matrix and the machine world. Neo couldn't understand his new found ability to jack into the machine processes in the real world so as a protection he ended up putting himself in Limbo (subconsciously) until he could understand it. If you notice once he got on the train and then out of the matrix he was actually jacked in in a conventional sense.

What do you think about that?

Starbuck

I think you've got it, this is discovered with the Oracle as she tells him he wasn't ready to stop the sentinels and it should of killed him, however he wasn't ready to die either.

I think that as he returned to the Matrix he would have to be plugged in possibly to prevent his death, whether he could of survived or not.

If he is able to jack into the machine process how can he stop the sentinals and know what they are doing without being hooked up to anything? Im not sure if hes accualy jacking into it.

I feel that a part of him runs through the interconnected consious of the machines. Since all the machines are hooked up to one unified concious part of neo has become part of that consious. (maybe he has always been a part of the machine consious, he has just never been aware of it :"the power of the one leads right back to the source").

Is it really hard to imagine having part of ones consious one place and the other part somewhere else?

maybe Neo stopped the sentinals by seeing himseft (real self) through himself in the machines. Both parts of a NEO come together and he sees himself as a whole which Neo is now fully aware of. (think about it for a good couple of minutes, thats how long it took me to get my head around )

Just imagine if somebody had 2 awarenesses at either ends of a room, looking at each other what would happen? could they interact telepathically?

As for Neo arriving at mobile ave, the machines might have sent him ( him being his awareness) there through their interconnected consiousness.

Mobile ave is a very interesting place, as starbuck said, its a place of limbo. the orical said its a program that smuggles programs in and out of the matrix and the link is controlled by the trainman. When the trainman says "so thats what they wanted" maybe he is implying that the machines wanted to trap him inside mobile ave so he couldn't escape.

What do you guys think?

HazzyBO wrote:

Im not sure if hes accualy jacking into it.

Possibility a poor choice of words. What I actually think is that he has developed a 6th sense that is able to touch the machines on a level we cant understand.

HazzyBO wrote:

Is it really hard to imagine having part of ones consious one place and the other part somewhere else?

Sorry, but yes that is hard to imagine. I dont see where you get the idea that someone can split consciousness. how are memories and experiences formed in this state. Descartes basic of "I think therefore I am" is something I believe in. I cant see how you can have a spit consciousness and have centralized cognative reasoning, memories and experiences at the same time. I think it would instantly drive you insane. your consciousness is what make you uniquely you. If you were to split that you would no longer exist.

I think the spit in Neo is not with the consciousness but with his state of being. Neo being the pure half and Smith being the evil half. together they make up the true One that is able to bring an end to the war.

Just my Opinion. What do you think.

Starbuck

When i say consious, i used the wrong word.

Neo has two states of awareness. Neo is aware of his own thoughts and ideas, and is also aware of the machines thoughts and ideas. Part of his awareness runs thoughout the source because as the oricle rightly put it,

"The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from.(the source)".

When he stops the sentinals at the end of M2 all Neo has to do is think about stopping them because what he thinks is connected to processes which run the machines, so in effect, the machines are stopping themselves.. NEO is "aware" of his awareness in the machines because its part of him. This is how he knows that the sentinals are sending a bomb. He can feel it.

This is where the theoretical issue comes up again, because this has never happened before, nobody can have a split awareness (I dont think) , but In the world of the machines, humans are grown by the machines. They are part machine to start with. Parts of there brain are machine so they can interconnect with them. There brains are ovbiously made so human thought can become machine process, and visa versa. If it were possible to interconnect machine processes with human processes (thought) then surely, (theoretically) they could share awareness. This is where i feel the wachowski brothers show the true potential of the whole matrix idea. Neos ability to stop the sentinals almost psycically shows the full range psycholoical possiblities of creating a mind which has been created by a machine.

As for Neos conious arriving at mobile ave, i have a cool idea. As starbuck said, mobile ave is a place of Limbo.

"He's trapped in a place between this world and the machine world. The link is controlled by a program called the Trainman. He uses it to smuggle programs in and out of the Matrix"

In and out? from the machine concious into the matrix program! After Neo stops the sentinals the first time he completly looses his consious, he goes into a coma. The nurse says that " His neural patterns don't read like someone who's in a coma." they are like someone who is jacked it.

Now how can Neo have active neural activitiy in his brain of being in the , matrix, without being hooked up to anything. There has to be a split in his awareness because his brain is active in the matrix, yet he is not in the matrix.

I think that when neo touched the machines he entered their process and then the machines sent his to mobile ave to try and trap his consious there. Lucky for him Trinity saved his ass

What do you guys think? All that i wanna do is create with the help of everybody, a universal theory, right or wrong, that most people agree with on the the riddle of the matrix!

I realised the bit in M3 where Neo speaks to the Oracle. She tells him that he was not ready to use his powers in the real world, and that it should of killed him, but he wasn't ready to die either. So then he just ended up in Mobil Ave. station, somewhere between the real world and the Matrix.
I have a bit more to say on this, but cannot finish right now.

Quote:

Who has time?

- Merovingian

hazzyBO wrote:

When i say consious, i used the wrong word. Neo has two states of awareness. Neo is aware of his own thoughts and ideas, and is also aware of the machines thoughts and ideas. Part of his awareness runs thoughout the source because as the oricle rightly put it,

kick ass.

That makes way more sense.
Would you say his other state of awareness equates to a "6th sense"?
He has one state of awareness with his 5 normal senses. He is aware of his world through touch, taste, smell, site and hearing and aware of the machines through a 6th sense. That is how I would equate it.

hazzyBO wrote:

There brains are ovbiously made so human thought can become machine process, and visa versa. If it were possible to interconnect machine processes with human processes (thought) then surely, (theoretically) they could share awareness.

That is very interesting. I have never thought of it that way before. My tendency, though, would be to think that the interface between man and machine is more of an interface for interacting in the Matrix. when man and machine are in the matrix they can interact with each other but cant actually share thoughts. When out of the Matrix there is no evidence to suggest that man and machine communicate at any level.

I believe the evolution Neo has experienced transcends just physical interfaces. What he as experienced defies science and logic and reason. That is the essence of the Movies. To be both spiritual, evolutionary and philosophical.

hazzyBO wrote:

I think that when neo touched the machines he entered their process and then the machines sent his to mobile ave to try and trap his consious there. Lucky for him Trinity saved his ass

I dont think the machines were aware of Neo on that level. I believe that Neo has gained access to the machine mind through a spiritial or philosophical/evolutionary connection that the machines cant figure out. If the machines had the ability to put him in a place then why didnt they do that at the end of the movies when he was attempting to get into the machine city? I feel Neo has transcended the body and learned how to control his spirit, mind and body in ways we cant understand as corporeal beings.

What do you think

Starbuck

This is a very confusing thought ( I may have this inerpreted wrong, but in any case) and I think to simplify it you must go back to the beginning theory: seperation of mind from body. As Neo is able to do this, he creates another sense, as it were, to have a connection with machines and programs. When in the Matrix, all have this as they are in something similar to a 'server' (The Matrix) However, when out of the Matrix, this communication should be severed. This leaves other technology for the two different things (humans and machines) to interact. Neo is able to do this, which gives him the advantage.

Starbuck, in response to your thoughts on Neo and the machine mind, I think that Neo's mind was not sure where to place itself, as it was in a state of confusion as he was not aware that he could use some of his powers outside the matrix, and so ended up inbetween the real world and the Matrix.

IM still a strong believer that part of Neo inhabits the machine mainframe (source). When Neo is so focused on reaching trinity his nueral processes or some part of him is left behind in the matrix. When a mind is consious inside a computer program im sure it could be possible for ones consious, awareness to become part of that system, for when jacked into the matrix, ones consious is floating through a computer system hooked up to the machine conious.

There are 2 parts to Neo. Whether its always been there and Neo just fine tuned his brain to realise it, or He left something behind after saving trinity. Something changed Neo into realising this. because the power of the one leads right back to the source.

Neo is able to hack into the source and change things (just like in the matrix but now at a deeper level) because part of him is the source. So basically my reasoning for him stopping the sentinals is that he is feeling the other part of himself and can interact with it on a psychic level. At the end after he destroys smith, and becomes taken over by the golden code, Neo has now become a whole consious again and has RETURNED TO THE SOURCE where the path of the one ends.

We know almost for certain that something changed when he went to the Source, and because he chose a differerent door from all the others, all bets were off. The machines were unable to comprehend the power of love (and before all you Ramakandra's start, it's the connection between it blah blah) and could not understand how something could be more important than survival. Of course, we know of one lovely program who does understand this, but to the fault of the machines and making her an exile,(i that the word I'm lookin for?) they probably did not even think it to be a possibility.

Thoughts?

book56 wrote:

Starbuck, in response to your thoughts on Neo and the machine mind, I think that Neo's mind was not sure where to place itself, as it was in a state of confusion as he was not aware that he could use some of his powers outside the matrix, and so ended up inbetween the real world and the Matrix.

I agree with that completely. I think he did seperate his mind from his body and didnt know what to do with it because he didnt understand that power. Later in the movie when he manipulated the machines again he had gained insight into that power and was able to understand it.

HazzyBO wrote:

IM still a strong believer that part of Neo inhabits the machine mainframe (source). When Neo is so focused on reaching trinity his nueral processes or some part of him is left behind in the matrix. When a mind is consious inside a computer program im sure it could be possible for ones consious, awareness to become part of that system, for when jacked into the matrix, ones consious is floating through a computer system hooked up to the machine conious

Im in the opposite camp. I dont think any human can become a program or leaves a digital signature in the matrix or machine world. If that were the case when Morpheus did a search through the matrix wouldnt he find a signature of Neo?

I think it is more like the human brain evolving to a more machine like digital state through centuries of artificial modification by the machines (implanting devices in human bodies to attach them to the matrix). He has evolved a state of connectivity (state of consciousness or 6th sense) to the machine mind much like a two computers on a network. It is obvious this is happening on the machine level also, since Smith was able to download himself into Bane. That is the most convincing evidence for his connectivity right there. Smith evolves to balance what Neo has evolved into and visa versa.

Thoughts.

Starbuck

Quote:

Im in the opposite camp. I dont think any human can become a program or leaves a digital signature in the matrix or machine world. If that were the case when Morpheus did a search through the matrix wouldnt he find a signature of Neo?

Neo isn't in the matrix at this point. He is in a place in between the matrix and the real world.

Is it really impossible for machine processes to change into computer processes? Obvioulsy the technology is already there. The people who are hooked up to the matrix send neural infomation to the matrix, so the ability to pass information between humans and machines is there.

In Reply to Starduck, its totally within the realms of psychological or computer theory that part of ones awareness inside a computer system can be left behind and become imcorporated into that system.

Neo Isn't a program. I wanna get that straighten any comfusion we have. Before getting "freed" by Morpheus and Trinity, Neo was a part of that system, the matrix "network" (matrix meaning something in which something else is contained), but now neo's mind has escaped that system.

Another interesting point on "jacking in". - When Neo and everybody jacks in to the matrix how do they accualy enter the matrix? They are on a hover craft. There must be a wireless transmission from the ship directly to the matrix. could the whole Neo stopping the sentinals thing come into the fact that Neo is stuck between the matirx and morpheus' ship (where the transmission is coming from)?

Something to think about

HazzyBO wrote:

Starbuck wrote: Im in the opposite camp. I dont think any human can become a program or leaves a digital signature in the matrix or machine world. If that were the case when Morpheus did a search through the matrix wouldnt he find a signature of Neo? Neo isn't in the matrix at this point. He is in a place in between the matrix and the real world.

Sorry. That was an incomplete thought. What I was thinking was that no matter whether a mind is jacked in or not, if it leaves a digital signature you should be able to read that as the person. So in essence no matter whether your jacked in or not if you ever have been connected to the matrix you should leave a piece of yourself behind. I dont think this is the case.

What are your thoughts on the ability of Smith to download himself into Bane? I think that Smith can access the human mind just like Neo can access the Machine mind. It is a unique ability of Neo and Smith alone and simular in comparison

book56 wrote:

The machines were unable to comprehend the power of love (and before all you Ramakandra's start, it's the connection between it blah blah) and could not understand how something could be more important than survival.

Good point. It is the basis for the Oracles revolution. the machines are evolving beyond their birth and basic programming. they are developing true emotions vs just programed responses or "instinct". the Idea that once a machines usefullness is done it will be deleted is becoming a thing of contention among the machines. The Oracle has seen this for some time and new it was a matter of time before a "one" came along that was stong enough to fight for the cause. Just as the Machines are evolving so to are the humans. I think that is the basis for Neos new found power.

hazzyBO wrote:

In Reply to Starduck, its totally within the realms of psychological or computer theory that part of ones awareness inside a computer system can be left behind and become imcorporated into that system

I understand and I agree. I think it is a facinating concept but I would tend to think that someones full consciousness would be downloaded into the machine vs part of it and have it be split. I dont see how that person can exist with that duality. Since I dont think Neo is a program as you do I dont think he has a digital presence in the matrix when he is not jacked in.

hazzyBO wrote:

Another interesting point on "jacking in". - When Neo and everybody jacks in to the matrix how do they accualy enter the matrix? They are on a hover craft. There must be a wireless transmission from the ship directly to the matrix. could the whole Neo stopping the sentinals thing come into the fact that Neo is stuck between the matirx and morpheus' ship (where the transmission is coming from)?

Its stated several times that they must move to "broadcast depth" to get into the martrix. Morpheus says in the first Matrix that they "hack into the matrix and broadcast our pirate signal" also. Also Link says something about the matrix "feed" being messed up. It seems obvious that the machines have a wireless network that is being broadcast throughout the area. Maybe that is how machines get into the matrix. They simple access the wireless component of the Matrix feed and "jack in" that way.

Thoughts?

Starbuck

By the way i just wanted to say cheers to starbuck for accualy finding my forum interesting!

First, My idea about bane... Its a hard one. I Think we are asking the wrong question when we talk about bane in the real world. I feel that answering this question would make the whole situation a lot clearer...

What is a person when they are in the matrix? Are they programs (doubt it), are they processes? is it mearly there awareness in the system....

If we understand this question we have uncovered how the matrix works.

I feel that as for Neo, trinity, Morpheus, whoever is "jacking in" to the matrix are obviously changing there consious from analog (nueural) to digital (matrix code) i think that this is a given. How can they just enter into the system of the matrix? A matrix is something in which somethin else is contained. Like a womb if you like... it can't change the people in the matrix, but people can change it..its a virtual home for everything from programs to people jacked in and im sure other things.

What state is Neos mind in the matrix? Its obviously a state of awareness but what makes somebody aware...processed infomation right? But inside the matrix there can't be any real nueural processes, because the whole thing is digital...so when in the matrix Neos mind is a processing unit. It receives infomation and processes what he wants to do within the matrix.. this is then sent back and changed into Nueral Process. so when neo comes out of the matrix he is aware of what he has done.

What do you guys think? How can i refine this theory? seems to work...

Finally.... as for smith entering the real world through bane..Smith takes over his digital brain, filling it with his conious processes. This is then changed back into Neural when he "jacks out".

This is where i think the idea that machines and humans can share the same mind, and can be interchangable is really cool. and is one of the reasons im a fan of the matrix!


what do you guys think?

Your theory sounds pretty much on the money. I think the interface works like a modem only in reverse. The modem takes digital info from a pc and converts it to analogue, sends it on a phone line and then the modem on the other end decodes it and gives it to another PC as digital code again. the interface between man and matrix is simular. Smith has gained the ability to transcend those boundaries. He exists in the digital world but he has the ability to transfer his consciousness to the neural world through Bane. Neo has gained the same ability only in reverse. He exists in the Neural world but has gained the ability to transfer his consciousness to the digital world through some telepathic connection.

Thoughts.


Starbuck

could the telepathec connection be the wireless transmission of the link into the matrix?

(just posing questions to think about...) dont have time to delve into more detail!

I have been toying with a very similar theory...However, a Dual consciousness theory is inherently complicated.

1) the 'copy' neo would exist even when the 'real' neo is not plugged in. This would require code (maybe Neo could 'copy self'), protected memory within the matrix, and someway of avoiding detection. Sounds like a trojan, possible, but there is little int he story that suggests that neo ever intended to do this.

2) How would you synchronize the copy and the real neos?

3) If there were two neo's then why ever jack back in?


In hopes that I have convinced you that the 2Neo theory raises more problems than it solves, let me propose an alternate way of explaining how Neo stopped the sentinels.

We know from M3 that the human brain/personality can be over-written, re-programmed (Smith takes over the ugly dude).

Well, if that is possible, then why couldn't Neo's brain be reprogrammed to wirelessly jack in.

The question would be then, who reprogrammed Neo? Neo seemed unaware of how he could do those things, so if he reprogrammed himself, then he had to of done it sub-consciously. Not likely, IMO. Rather, the Oracle reprogrammed Neo. Yep, I think she hacked Neo's physical brain. Hence, all the metaphysical dialogue in their encounters was her metaphorically slipping into Neo's mind and re-writing his physical brain. We know (and least I think I know) she was able to manipulate Smith, so why not Neo too?

The oricle doesn't change neo in anyway. She doesn't manipulate his mind by changing his programming or his consiousness.
The oricle does guide Neo and mentally manipulates him, just giving him enough information... she is playing a clever game.